No torah no jewish state

Avram > We’re not discussing relying on people, but on government programs that the citizens pay into with their taxes. You should avoid utilizing public roads,

Right, this might be a reasonable position (Obama used it against Romney – “you did not build that, we did”). Maybe this is what R Henneman means when saying “they dont do it for tzdokah”.
a) are there sources making this argument explicitly?
b) what would be included in Sh’A definition beyond “tzedokah”
c) would the resolution depend on time and place? There are people with strong opinions that beings “on the dole” while able to work is shameful and there are those who want to make everyone comfortable … I guess, state laws will reflect majority attitude and you need to read those carefully. So, halocha for TX and CA will be different.

Avram > [ THAT IS NOT IN THE TIMES OR PLACES WHERE WE NEED TO PROTECT OUR SOCIETY FROM SHMAD AND SUCH]”
That is certainly this time and place.

So, maybe this is where the real disagreement lies. Here is my naive view of current Jewish demographics in US:
2/3 are non-observant and assimilated and quickly losing any connection to Yiddishkeit and have a slight chance of being rescued by Chabad on campus or a birthright trip…
remaining consist of
– MO that grows moderately while losing some on the left side to assimilation into liberalism/OO, etc
– non-MO that grows fast, with some moving closer to MO when going to work/college.

so, this last group does not experience much assimilation, unless you count any shift towards work as a first step in sliding down. I don’t think it is. People with now 3 generations of yeshiva education are not marrying shiksas if they enroll in Columbia. At worst, they get some modernishe religious views. The worst of that is also preventable, as people here referred to Landers as an alternative to YU; and to Baltimore.

Avram > I believe the government money being discussed in Israel referred to funding for schools.

yes, and the argument seems to apply more generally.

> if they went away, things would become much more challenging, but iyH the “system” wouldn’t collapse.

I don’t know what the numbers are, but your argument fits what R Shach is saying in terms of “partially relying”.

Can we use non-Jewish public assistance in general.

You made up the issue. It’s not really one.

Always_Ask_Questions,

“You don’t think this is sufficient for a person who wants to learn. And we presume here that the wife volunteers to agree to that lifestyle and even works. [snip longer digression about wife preferences]”

That was not my point, and the rest of your post was an unrelated digression. My point was that $12,000 a year is an insufficient income to raise a family from qualifying for benefits.

Always_Ask_Questions,

“I was shocked, shocked, and saddened, that Vaad could quote Rambam selectively. Maybe the question mentioned the other Rambam and it got edited out, or they presume that everyone knows the other Rambam.”

The question was based on your favorite Rambam, so why would they need to rehash? And why are you shocked and saddened when selectively quoting the Rambam is exactly what you are doing?

> My point was that $12,000 a year is an insufficient income to raise a family from qualifying for benefits.

My suggestion is for someone to work a little to earn for modest living. According to my shita, one should not then go take benefits. If he legitimately is not able to earn more, then he can do, at least according to R Henneman’s explanation that government assistance is not non-Jewish tzedoka. And we did not factor the wife’s earnings. I am not pushing here for the Ketubot 60s discussion that the father can send kids over 6 y.o. to earn for their upkeep – it is allowed but not recommended.

“My suggestion is for someone to work a little to earn for modest living.”

When anyone who actually understands the value of Torah learning knows that doing it full time, for however long, is a privilege, why should they follow a suggestion of someone who worships money and secularism just to keep him happy?

Major head scratcher

The shailoh was paskened centuries ago. The radvas on the rambam says that if we paskened like him, כבר נשתכחה תורב מישראל ח”ו
The nosei keilim don’t bring it. Shu”a doesn’t say it. The achronim almost all say that in their time there isn’t even a middah tovah to not taking tzedaka to learn.

Let it go. We don’t hold of 1/3 or so of the rambam’s own shitos – why do people harp on this so much?
Rav Moshe writes that it’s gaavah to want to follow that shitoh nowadays.

Once again, you cut off a sentence in the middle and pretend it says something else.

One more time now:
You: My suggestion is for someone to work a little to earn for modest living.”

I responded that someone who actually understands the value of torah would have no reason to follow the “suggestion” of someone such as yourself who prioritizes money and secular education over torah.

You chose to respond as if I said only full time learners have value.

What I said was that torah needs to be valued over money and secular education. Until you do that, you have no business offering “suggestions”.

If you are really just concerned about your torah and the klal as you mentioned, do something about your poor girls who are victims of criminal negligence, learning what priorities?

Avira,
how many times I need to clarify my question: which acharonim allow using non-Jewish support system for poor people in order to learn – and not just for one person but for whole groups.

As to indeed allowed taking of tzedoka, could you quote in more detail – is it for those of exceptional learning or for anyone; is it for those who can easily support themselves.

I really, really have no questions about self-sustaining learning communities, where some people support others who are learning. This may not be as ideal as having everyone learn and earn a little to sustain themselves, the way Chofetz Chaim did, but quite reasonable. Do we have communities like that? I don’t think it is difficult. A small town of Volozhin was able to sustain 400 students by eating days, without asking Czar for funding.

> Which Acharonim allowed you to accept or use the non-Jewish cash sent to you by Uncle Sam during the Covid pandemic?

ujm, thanks for giving me an opportunity to review halochos of matonos (that is what it was, right?)
Sources below are from “Halachically speaking” v 16-1 by Kof-K R Moishe Dovid Lebovits. I did not review them yet, feel free to help review them.

it is indeed praiseworthy not to accept gifts!
Rambam Hilchos Zichiyah V’matanah 12:17. Brachos 10b Rashi, Maharsha
S’A C.M. 249:5.
one who avoids presents will definitely avoid stealing
one who accepts presents will constantly want money. Furthermore, one will come to flatter those who give him gifts. If one sees a person who gave him gifts doing something wrong, he will not rebuke him.13 In addition, one who receives gifts thinks that he will live off the gifts and neglects to realize that everything is from Hashem
If one receives a present from a non-Jew, the first reason would not apply in this case since one may not flatter a non-Jew, but the others reasons may still apply. Many are lenient and say that it does not apply to a present from a non-Jew.

Mishneh Halachos 15:215 If someone is lacking and does not have what to live on, he may accept gifts. This did not apply to me, but did presumably to those who lost jobs. Frankly, all jobs were uncertain at the time.

R Belsky (no specific page given): There is no issue with accepting WIC checks from the government as one pays taxes and this is not considered taking gifts. This should kal vehomer apply to Covid funds to those who pay more taxes than getting back.

OK to accept small gifts (Sifsei Chachamim, Bereishis 12:13, Mishneh Halachos 17:137). These checks were definitely way less that what I sent the government.

some other interesting halochos:
If one who is learning wishes to accept money from his parents in order for him to continue learning, there is no issue of soneh matanos.
Any gift a parent gives to a child is not included in soneh matanos. It is considered a mitzvah since giving gifts to one’s child brings the parent and child closer, positively impacting the child.
Even if a woman is careful and wishes not to accept presents during the year from her husband because she does not want to accustom herself to presents, in honor of Yom Tov she may accept presents
Others mention that when the Yevanim ruled over Eretz Yisrael, learning Torah was not allowed. When Klal Yisrael was victorious over them, the children were given money to entice them to learn. Therefore, the custom evolved to give out money on Chanukah

One is forbidden to give a non-Jew a gift. However, if one will benefit from giving the non-Jew a present, it is permitted. Based on this, it is customary to give one’s mailman a present during the non-Jewish holiday season

Additionally, the poskim say that if one has a personal relationship with the non-Jew he may give him a present even if he will not receive any benefit in return

Found an explanation for another point where I was confused whether there are work and income restrictions for various programs. Turns out I am behind the times … March 2020 Covid law included suspension of medicaid income and food stamp work requirements for the time of pandemic (even if states want them)

Always_Ask_Questions,

“I would expect an esteemed center in the capitol of Jewish learning to be better at quoting sources than a humble internet poster.”

If this discussion is going to veer into lashon hara, we need to stop it right now. Just because they didn’t answer the question in the way you wanted doesn’t mean they are bad at lomdus. As AviraDeArah and DaasYochid both stated, the Rambam makes two statements that appear contradictory, and the halacha does not follow like you.

Always_Ask_Questions,

“so you are saying that a person who expresses himself to these mitzvos is somehow an inferior person, provided he “only” learns 70% of his available time?!”

Nobody has said that as far as I have read. Do you feel as though full time learners look down on you, and that’s why you want to clap back at them? I’m not sure you realize this, but I think everybody who is arguing with you works part or full time. And your vision of Lakewood as a whole “group” full of people learning full time and mooching off the government in perpetuity, and only deigning to teach badly if their learning doesn’t go well, is fantasy. Most learners start working, many after only a few years of learning in kollel.

Here’s where I’m coming from. Torah learning is precious and vital, and there is no comparison between learning an hour a day, or half a day, to full immersion in learning. I say that even though I unfortunately didn’t learn in a yeshiva and I work a full time job. If we are truly concerned about the klal, we should do what we can to support those learning to prolong their learning as much as possible. Just as learners get a share in the mitzvos of honest weights, paying workers on time, etc. via learning those halachos and their details, we workers can get a share in their limud Torah by supporting their learning. Learners deserve our hakaras hatov, not our derision.

Re: Benefits – their intention is to foster healthy families and communities, and inasmuch as Torah learning is the backbone of a healthy Jewish community, than if the benefits help Jews learn Torah than they are fulfilling their purpose even in eyes of the government. Just like if benefits help Native Americans maintain their traditions, help students finish grad school while raising a family, etc. Yes there are those who are politically opposed to benefits for various reasons (redistribution of wealth is bad, the gap between benefits and a livable wage creates dependency, benefits buy votes, etc.), and others who oppose them due to racism or antisemitism and a perception that they disproportionately help the groups they hate. If someone doesn’t like it for political reasons, then his fight is with the laws, not with his fellow citizens, and he can express himself via voting, supporting candidates who hold like him, or running for office himself. If someone’s a racist or antisemite, than whatever, I’m not concerned about chillul Hashem in his eyes – he already hates Hashem. If the benefits go away he’ll find something else to be upset about regarding Jews.

Avram > As AviraDeArah and DaasYochid both stated, the Rambam makes two statements that appear contradictory, and the halacha does not follow like you.

right, and this is why I enjoy talking with them. I would like to look further and how these stirahs are resolved. There are other Rambams like that (sleeping 8 hours AND learning at night). What I have a problem with is that the Vaad refers to a Rambam, omitting the other one. Nobody asked them about the Rambam. They could have referred to S’A or to R Kotler. As Gemora says in other circumstances: “this is the Torah and this is the reward?!”. Maybe, they saw this post as a polemic piece and thought that the person who asked a question is the type that gets impressed by Rambams. Maybe a webmaster wrote the piece, not the dayanim. And I went to their site specifically looking for a kosher lomdishe place – a business beis din in the most famoous yeshiva. So, maybe this is just a mismatch.

Avram > If we are truly concerned about the klal, we should do what we can to support those learning to prolong their learning as much as possible.

Thanks for a clear explanation of your position. I totally agree that those who are capable of quality learning, should learn and kahal should support them. Ad kan? One of my teachers was asked to help out a struggling shul on shabbos when he was in yeshiva. He asked R’Y and got an OK for that. The shul then asked him to help on one chol day. R’Y said – no, you need to learn full time, that will make you more useful for them later on. I do think though that too many people are pushed into long-term learning for social reasons and are then upset that they are not successful against this criteria.

Always_Ask_Questions,

“Right now, unfortunately, I do not stop at that.”

“I am afraid that I would not (and most other people are probably in the same position).”

Why then would you advocate for a “shitta” that you openly acknowledge that you cannot follow, nor do you expect the vast majority of the olam to be able to follow? The end result of your advice to “Lakewood” would be a tremendous loss of Torah.

“As with everyone, I get my masorah from my Parents and Teachers. Most of them encouraged independent thinking and asking questions.”

So it’s not that your parents and teachers told you that your family/community shitta is to hold vehemently to a specific Rambam in opposition to how others pasken, but that you can be an “independent thinker” and pasken for yourself?

Always_Ask_Questions,

“But I looked up above and I stated at minimum thta I am OK with in-laws and gevirim supporting learning and you stam responded that you don’t believe me. “

I was basing that on a previous conversation on the CR regarding in-laws being compelled to support. It’s very possible that I was having that debate with someone else (maybe CTLAWYER or Gadolhadorah) and my memory erroneously ascribed their posts to you. I apologize.

Avram > What makes income based benefits different?

First problem – many, maybe not all, income based benefits require or at least presume that the person gets them only if/when he is not able to find work. Details seem to vary by program, presence of children, state, and year, but this is how society generally understands income-based benefits.

2nd problem – Y’D, not just Rambam, paskening not to take non-Jewish charity with wording “not to depend on people”. See precise loshon above.

I am pretty convinced that these questions deserve consideration for specific people and for communities, when it becomes public knowledge, and that answers may be complex and not the same for everyone. I would like to see some sources that explain the permissive position. So far, I found a short line from R Henneman, and a Vaad responsa that we agreed is not a serious source. At least, these mean that there is a question to answer. Please help me with the sources.

Mu inartful/exaggerated communist comparison was about people taking funds and mis-directing them to the purposes the givers did not intend. Government openly making decisions is a normal indirect democracy. We ain’t greeks.

“many, maybe not all, income based benefits require or at least presume that the person gets them only if/when he is not able to find work” no. Unemployment is for people who need work, ergo UNEMPLOYMENT. Medicaid and foodstamps are for people below a certain income per capita under 22ish, and WIC is for children under 5 in families below a certain income per capita. And here’s the kicker! Some of them have college degrees!

Always_Ask_Questions,

“many, maybe not all, income based benefits require or at least presume that the person gets them only if/when he is not able to find work.”

Not true. Most benefits are based on income thresholds, which is not the same thing as unemployment. Many households eligible for benefits are indeed working/earning incomes, but the amounts are below the qualifying threshold. See my first response to our $12,000/year tangent above.

“2nd problem – Y’D, not just Rambam, paskening not to take non-Jewish charity with wording “not to depend on people”. See precise loshon above.”

This would seem to also apply to child tax credits, transportation benefits, etc. as well, so it does not answer why you see income based benefits as distinct from these other benefits.

“Mu inartful/exaggerated communist comparison was about people taking funds and mis-directing them to the purposes the givers did not intend.”

I’m not sure you’re applying correct reasoning here. If TANF, WIC, SNAP, Medicaid, et al. benefits are used to provide for the material and medical needs of a family, then they are being directed appropriately. Why the family qualifies for the benefits is not relevant to the purpose of the benefits – just that the family does. An example of misdirected benefits would be someone with a job collecting unemployment, which is fraud.

Your focus in on Torah learners, that they shouldn’t be learning if they collect benefits they are entitled to, but your arguments can be also used to tell janitors and cashiers that they should not marry and have children, or tell wives that they cannot stay home with the kids, etc.

> also apply to child tax credits, transportation benefits, etc. as well, so it does not answer why you see income based benefits

This is a good question. We do generally depend on other people in modern world and it is hard to escape. Obama’s shitah is indeed that an entrepreneur “did not build that” because community provided resources. Indeed, same entrepreneur born in North Korea would rise to smuggling goods from China and we need to be grateful to people who support our lives … My feeling is that Y’D talks about any income-based help as the context is “helping the poor”, but then many tax credits are also income-based. Maybe, it means being in the category where you can take more than you give (see R Dessler defining people as givers OR takers). Maybe someone wants to look for more sources on these or ask a shailoh?