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AviraDeArah,
“i didn’t know you believe all homeschooling to be truancy and neglect.”
I think she was making a polemical example to AAQ that parallels his attitudes towards full time learners, not stating her own personal views.
As to what I meant by “getting around,” there are several ways. I do not report my tutoring services to the IRS. They’re aware that people are paid in cash for such services, and they don’t realistically expect people to report it. But on a larger scope, rebbeim often work as 1099 employees and file for parsonage exemptions. While it’s a bit of a stretch sometimes, no one seems to care; I did it for years. There are also business expenses that you can claim which are a stretch, but not outright lying.
AviraDeArah,
“They’re aware that people are paid in cash for such services, and they don’t realistically expect people to report it.”
I believe they do expect people to report it as self-employed income if (minus expenses) you net more than $400 cash in the year.
“rebbeim often work as 1099 employees “
Basically regarded as independent contractors?
“file for parsonage exemptions”
That one’s outside my wheelhouse.
Syag >> “It did not occur to me to continue telling the office that I can’t find a job.”
> why bring this up? Are you now insinuating that someone else did do that?Maybe I am indeed behind on how gov assistance works and I would appreciate explanations. The one that I used, in a conservative state years ago, required one to search for a job, provided me with classes in resume-writing. I think there was an expectation/requirement to do something job-related every week. I looked up current NJ SNAP rules and they also mentioned some employment search requirements, listing groups (like college students) that are exempt.
Are you saying that gov assistance in your state does not expect people to look for a job and take it if they find it? There is Mr. Yang, always candidate for something, who advocates minimal income for everyone. I would say that, depending on how it were worded, this could be an ideal solution for a learner. Hopefully, in ten years, there will be enough workers to support all slackers, but meanwhile we can have 10 years of learning for everyone.
Syag > I know you have claimed you homeschool, which of course is truancy and neglect
And if I were neglecting the kids, it would be really good if you were reminding me about that and annoying me. It would be so easy to ignore my problems – who cares about some Yid somewhere. But I am sure, people here would not hesitate to bring up things that they think I do wrong, hopefully with good arguments that will convince me to be better, as we are all orevim ze mize.
So, to answer this question: my state legally allows homeschooling, requiring parents to file a study plan with them (which I think most people ignore). I am, though, not doing that. My school-age kids are in a public online school, were in private Jewish online before and in non-modern Jewish schools before that. Average family GPA is above 4.0, so B’H, they are not in total neglect. Those in college also do fine so far. This is just so that you don’t worry, I hope this is not ayn hara, as we do not know each other personally.
Avram > What if you find out that someone else is more machmir or more meikil than your LOR?
I would say – take it back to your LOR to discuss, especially in a case where you are involved financially. Even if you are t’Ch yourself.
Avram> So this is another example of illegal activity,
> What we are debating is the idea of taking benefits that one is legally entitled to, but you feel is avoidablegood, so we have a lot we agree on. I presume you include all cases where someone works for cash, etc. As you see from the shaila I posted, not everyone is cler on this. In the related discussion, I saw someone mentioning that apparently IRS would not take Israeli yeshiva letter as a proof of income in Israel, but would take from any other business. Apparently, this is based on their experience ..
But let’s analyze the remaining disagreements. Here are some examples, let me know what you think:
1) cases where legal requirements are light and avoidable. I think this would be when recipient of aid is required/expected to look for a job. I don’t know whether they ask, but it might be possible to show 5 letters you mailed last week to satisfy inspectors. I don’t think one needs a BA to get a job, I am sure anyone capable of learning a blatt of gemora can do some productive job.
2) where legal requirements are complicated and rarely enforced. This is what Trump’s accountant just pleaded to – T was “donating” money to his einekle school in lieu of tuition, if I understand it correctly. Another would be when school does not pay salary and teachers do not pay tuition. Not saying it is wrong, but it is not clear for a layman whether this is ok also.
3) where there are no legal requirements, like recent food giveaways. I don’t really know what other benefits are given that do not expect people to look for a job.
in my views, somewhere down the list, it may be OK to take, especially if you have a halachic authority that overrides the references I gave above (nobody brought those to the contrary so far, I’d love to see those), but surely a baal middos should avoid all. Again, presuming he is not actually in need.
So, Avram, here is your example of what “getting around” is – something that is not usually prosecuted. So far, I saw references to a 19th century Ungarian posek who seemed to approve such approaches based solely on pragmatic outcomes. Maybe Avira is using such psak.
“The one that I used, in a conservative state years ago, required one to search for a job, provided me with classes in resume-writing.”
false. nobody is required to search for a job to get food stamps or low income benefits. What you are talking about is unemployment benefits, which is not in any way relevant here.
“Hopefully, in ten years, there will be enough workers to support all slackers, but meanwhile we can have 10 years of learning for everyone.”
you call learners slackers. better slackers than truant parents guilty of child neglect, no?
” Average family GPA is above 4.0, so B’H, they are not in total neglect. ”
children who are starving and beaten can also get 4.0. What is your point? That high levels of education is the goal and not religious health or social well being? And how do you teach your children to be honest and upstanding while committing the crime of truancy and child neglect? Just wondering of course.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I looked up current NJ SNAP rules and they also mentioned some employment search requirements, listing groups (like college students) that are exempt.”
I believe caretakers of young children and students in school (not just colleges) are also exempt from SNAP work requirements. WIC and Medicaid do not have work requirements as far as I’m aware.
“Hopefully, in ten years, there will be enough workers to support all slackers”
Are you implying that full-time learners are slackers?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I would say – take it back to your LOR to discuss, especially in a case where you are involved financially. Even if you are t’Ch yourself.”
It doesn’t seem so polite to go and argue or rehash a psak your LOR gave you, whether it’s l’chumra or l’heter, absent a change in actual circumstances. Don’t you think your LOR was aware of the different opinions? If not, why would you rely on him to pasken your shaila?
Also, this is a big departure in your stance from a previous debate we had where you seemed almost allergic to the idea of asking your LOR a shaila about skipping kaddishes that are regularly said during davening. Have you changed your mind on that, or are you inconsistent in your positions on asking shailos for some reason?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I don’t think one needs a BA to get a job, I am sure anyone capable of learning a blatt of gemora can do some productive job.”
Yet in a previous debate you bemoaned that full-time learning sets people up to make less money or to be herded into teaching for which they may not be a good fit. Have you changed your mind on that, or are you just making whatever argument that pops into your head against full-time learning, however inconsistent it is with your previous positions?
(nobody brought those to the contrary so far, I’d love to see those),
are you talking about arguing your claim that one should not accept tzedaka? If so it has been argued repeatedly that no halachik authority deems benefits as tzedaka. You yourself are gaslighting with this claim, you falsely refer to benefits as tzedaka, and use that to accuse people of accepting tzedaka. That is the definition of gaslighting. The odd part is that you seem to be falling for it yourself. I guess when you are so bias against of a group of people you can even fool yourself to further your bias.
Syag >> The one that I used, in a conservative state years ago, required one to search for a job, provided me with classes in resume-writing.”
>> false. nobody is required to search for a job to get food stamps or low income benefitsOk, we are having disagreements about facts. My experience was welfare & food stamps, but this was long ago. I looked up NJ SNAP rules before, it referred to employment. Here is from IL website:
SNAP
Are there more rules? Yes. Here are some other rules to consider.
We expect people who can work to try and do so.
We may ask for proof of certain information.
Changes in a person’s situation must be reported.
Eligibility is reviewed from time to time.there is also SNAP Employment & Training Job Placement
If you suspect Medicaid or Welfare fraud (including Link Card, Illinois’ SNAP/Food Stamp program), please click the button below or call the Medicaid/Welfare Fraud Hotline at 1-844-453-7283/1-844-ILFRAUD.
Syag > it has been argued repeatedly that no halachik authority deems benefits as tzedaka.
I am asking for sources – how do they see this issue. Maybe I missed them before.
I agree it is a complicated issue – classical sources I saw discuss benevolence of a non-Jew, not of non-Jewish society establishing a social support system and then having a rule-based approach that is same for Jews as for other people, without requiring us to convert …
So, there might be a lot of different gradations here, whether it is for strict halakha or for being machmir. I heard a number of stories, like of a Rav who had a business and who was lauded by an IRS auditor for documenting every little nekuda, and, opposite like reported here that it is possible to “get around” by hiding some income. Logically continuing this, then hiding income makes someone eligible for income-based programs, etc – this might lead to way further into dirt that I imagined. I only discussed an issue of people capable of working, choosing not to, and then using benefits.
Anyway, it would be good to hear what the halachic opinions are out there. I would not rely on “people do it, this must be approved”. We see people making questionable decisions without even realizing that they need to ask shailos. And when people ask, there should be teshuvos somewhere out there.
Avram > they do expect people to report it as self-employed income if (minus expenses) you net more than $400 cash
it is $400, whether it is cash or not, and this is for reporting on schedule SE to compute self-employment tax. You still need to add any income to Schedule C for income tax. Disclaimer: I am not an accountant, and I use software to file, so may be wrong on the forms.
I am asking for sources – how do they see this issue. Maybe I missed them before.
AAQ – You dreamed up the idea that government benefits is tzedaka so YOU are the one who needs sources. Do you need to provide me with sources that you are not guilty of neglect regarding your kid’s education or do I need to provide you with sources that it even qualifies?
You jumped on this tzedaka label and use it to vilify people you don’t like. You are the one who needs to drum up sources for it qualifying as tzedaka, AND THEN you can worry about ways to bad mouth them for how they use it.
Meanwhile, stop hating on people for things you hardly know about.
But back to “slackers” issue in Jewish context:
now much time would it take for a smart person to work to substitute for welfare benefits, let’s skip medicare. To earn $1,000 at $20/hour, you need 50 hours a month, or 1.5 work days per week. I think one can be a full-time learner and carry that big of a load.AAQ “HOPEFULLY, IN TEN YEARS, THERE WILL BE ENOUGH WORKERS TO SUPPORT ALL SLACKERS”
Everyone: Are you implying that full-time learners are slackers?Sorry for inaccurate writing. What I meant to say is that I am not sure whether Yang’s income scheme will work out for the society, when so many people will stop working. Finnish experiment a couple of years ago seem to show that basic income does not encourage those who are already unemployed to start working (there was slight increase, but it seems it was attributed to some unrelated policy change). There was self-reported improvement in mental health and wellbeing from people worrying less (my words now:) about being forced to show that they are looking for a job.
Syag, my sources are
– Gemora Kidushin about responsibilities of the father to teach kids (or sons?) Torah, jobs, business, and swimming;
– Gemora Bava Basra that discusses history of Jewish public education during BM2 that lists “fathers teaching sons” as the first way they tried, but did not work universally, as not all fathers were able to teach, so they searched for other ways, but there is nothing there about this approach being wrong per se.
– Rebbe Eliezer saying that teaching girls Torah is like teaching her foolishness (some more modern poskim limit hesitation to Gemorah), so I am being very careful about how girls learn and what their motivation is.Are you kidding? I asked you what your sources were that benefits are tzedaka. If you are going to give it a halachik status you need to back it up.
Syag, I admit that this is a good question how to relate to modern welfare state, I tried to search several times, but I mostly come by sources comparing Jewish attitude towards welfare state in halakha, rather than how we can relate to non-Jewish welfare state. I’ll try more, bli neder
meanwhile, here is a 2017 statement from Lakewood Vaad after some unfortunate behaviors ( I realize this does not cover all our discussions):
There is no such a thing as “justified” theft. Federal and State social safety-net programs are meant for those in need, even those in need have rules and criteria that must be strictly followed. To deliberately bend a safety-net eligibility rule is stealing, no different than stealing from your friend or neighbor.
“We would all do well to redouble and triple our efforts in our communities, reminding each and every one of us that there is never any excuse for dishonesty in any form. Let us take this moment to speak openly of these matters, from the pulpit, in the classroom, and by parents at the dinner table, so that this tragic but necessary learning moment is not lost.
“In the days ahead we will help launch a set of intensive educational programs that can ensure that such does not happen again, and will invite the public to participate in these timely programsYou just gave a long response on whether or not we can lie on got paperwork which has ZERO relevance to our conversation.
Try again?
In support of Syag’s position: I found R Moshe Heinemann in 2017 video on Tzedakah explaining that we do not get _tzedokah_ from goyim because tzedokah has a special zhus and we do not want to give it to others and would rather have it ourselves. At the same time, government support is NOT tzedokah: (1) they do not do it as chesed, but rather to prevent poor people from misbehaving, such as stealing, (2) government is not a baal chesed, they are taxing rich people, so they are not providers.
Here is from Lakewood Bays Havaad, covering some of the sources we talked about here:
Question: We have stated that one should avoid taking tzedakah if he has the option of supporting himself. Today, there are thousands of people learning in Kollel. Many of them are supported by the public’s generosity. Since they technically could get a job and support themselves, is learning full-time a contradiction to the Gemara’s statement that one should avoid taking charity?
Answer: It is true that Chazal say it is preferable to take any job than to live off of tzedakah; however, the Rambam says that anyone who accepts to spend his days learning Torah should be supported by the public.
In olden times, Shevet Levi sat and learned all day and they were taken care of by the rest of the nation. The Rambam says that anyone who so desires can emulate Shevet Levi and accept to learn full-time while the public supports him.
These people are needed to sustain the world through their Torah studies, and, therefore, are an exception to the above-stated rule that one should do any kind of labor in order to avoid accepting charity. All Poskim agree that this is true and maintain that supporting such men is an ideal form of tzedakah.
The Chofetz Chaim speaks about this in many places and says that the best use of tzedakah funds is to support poor Torah scholars who wouldn’t be able to learn otherwise without your help. These funds directly contribute to the dissemination of Torah through the generations and are necessary to sustain the world.
Before you get more tangled up in the semantics and varying opinions let’s knock it down to the bottom line:
Why do you have such animosity toward full time learners? How did your view on the value of Torah become so low?
When you can figure that out, and explain it, all your diversionary talk may fall away.
You posted two megilas explaining that govt money is NOT tzedaka and your NEXT statement is about kollel people not in compliance to the halacha based on taking tzedaka.
Do you hear yourself?
Syag > You posted two megilas explaining that govt money is NOT tzedaka
Yes, I search and found support for your positions, as you did not bother to do it yourself. I’ll look further to analyze this.
You seem to have omitted the second half of the sentence which was the actual point.
There is nothing to analyze, stop avoiding your errors with diversions.Above: you confirm benefits are not tzedaka, and then pretend they are.
Do you bother attending to your own points?
Syag > Why do you have such animosity toward full time learners?
I think it was a right emergency measure after WW2 to send everyone who could, or could not, to learn as much as they could. I think the emergency time has passed, we have large communities that need to do all mitzvos in the Torah and we need to make learning pure. Those who want to be so holy that they do not have time to earn a living, should find sources of money for that: sponsors, yissachar/zevulun contracts, fathers-in-law, wives and children who want to work, whatever it takes.
Lakewood Bays Vaad quotes Rambam that support learners who are willingly supported by community.
We also learn from this that it is ok to rely on Rambam, even when he disagrees with Chazal. This contradicts some T’Ch here.
Of course, we know that there is another Rambam that, on the surface, contradicts the above. I am a little puzzled why the Bays Havaad skips it. They could probably explain the stira somehow.
But why is it your business? And why do you need to attack them every time you can find an opportunity? You don’t seem to worry about the purity of your heros who push college and higher education? How pure was your motive to yank your kids into truancy for threatening to become more observant? There has to be some reason you chose to smear these people who you seem to know so little about, there must be a reason. Sinas chinam?
> But why is it your business?
Because it is our Torah (as an am haaretz said to R Yannai) and our community. And I want it to be better, like each of us. So, we can disagree what is the right direction, and it is ok, and we can discuss this here, but questioning motivation is just silly. You could spend this time in finding better arguments for your position.
I am still looking for an explanation why is it so magically important for a mass of people to be “full time” learners instead of “80% time learners” and be machmir according to Gemora and Rambam. And I am sure there are some who go this way and they should be fully supported by the community and not feel like a failure because they work.
> You don’t seem to worry about the purity of your heros who push college and higher education?
I am all for being careful with college. And I talk about that with my modern friends, and with kids. Most concerns are about behaviors and also indoctrination. I think most of us here agree on this so there is no raging debate.
Furthermore, if someone is studying engineering wrong, then he will become a mediocre engineer. As long as he does not design a bridge that will fall, he will have a poor career. When someone goes into learning a wrong way, he then becomes a teacher of your and mine kids.
” not feel like a failure because they work.”
Ah, finally a possible source for the animosity
Syag > , finally a possible source for the animosity
I really, really have no personal issues here, just concerns for klal isroel. I am talking about those in the community, and their wives, who try to justify that they are stopping being “full time learners”.
I am trying to understand R Heinemann’s position. Granted, it is an off-hand remark during a lecture, but he seems to be pretty confident in this. His two arguments are: (1) non-Jewish motivation is not tzedoka but self-interest (2) government is not baal tzedoka but uses taxes. Note that he is seemingly talking about getting tzedoka in general, not for learning.
First, Shulchan Aruch (YD 254-255) says it is osur to get tzedoka from non-Jews in public – unless he can be assisted by Jewish or private non-Jewish funds. Not sure whether SNAP etc are “public”. Is getting assistance public? maybe not, especially as there are now electronic cards rather than visible food stamps, for those who remember. Still, S’A does not hang to the word “tzedoka”. YD 255 is way more expansive – one should roll in pain (tzaar) rather than depend (itztarech) on human beings (briyut), this expression repeated twice. This does not seem to allow parsing motivation of givers, whether they are Jews, idol worshippers or bnei Noach, whether it is a private donor or law-based system. Not sure if even Yang’s $10K passes this.
YD 256 follows that saying that those who deceive “haam” will later need actual charity (lashon Rambam). Now, here the words are tzedoka and “am”, so we are talking about Jewish tzedoka. Would this mean to permit “getting around” rules for public assistance? Would need a reference for that. Also, several commentaries of YD 254 mention “hillul Hashem”, and it is no doubt that even rare cases of Jews accused or arrested lead to that.
To summarize, “there are those who allow”
1) non-Jewish assistance for those who need it and
2) getting community support for Torah learning (shevet Levi)so even if you are meikil on both of these, you still need (3) to equate “those who need it” with “support of Torah learning”. Vaad position above asks for Jewish public to support learning, not the non-Jewish, or for non-religious community in Israel.
So, there are 3 difficult steps here, each requiring a lot of justifications and kulos. Would you eat hot dogs that have so many levels of kulos?
So you just keep on and on about the rules of taking tzedaka from the public, the consequences of taking tzedaka from the public, what exactly is the public. Still totally avoiding the fact that nobody has deemed benefits to be tzedaka.
And the gaslighting continues…
> nobody has deemed benefits to be tzedaka.
You are right. R Henneman dismisses the idea that non-Jews support poor w/ tzedokah. To clarify: my problem with that is that Yoreh Deah that in one place uses the word tzedoka, but in others more general “depending on people”. And, again, all of that is about people who are in financial difficulty they can not get out of by themselves. Even that seems to be a problem. Not about taking money for poor and use them to support learning. The source about learning all seem to allow it when taken from Jews for learning. I am not able to find a source that allows using public assistance funds for poor to use them to support learning instead. Does anyone else have such sources?
I don’t really care what your halachik questions are, I am asking you to stop making derogatory, condescending and usually false comments about kollel people and their funding.
Just stop.
You have no idea how their finances work, you barely know how government benefits work. Your years of posts make it obvious that nothing is more important to you than money and secular knowledge, even at the expense of learning, religious adherence, and mesorah. Go find a less offensive bone to chew on.I can’t figure out why AAQ keeps pretending that we pasken like that Rambam.
Plain and simple, we don’t. See all meforshim, and I’ll just repeat one more time that R’ Moshe writes that one who can learn but doesn’t because he wants to be “machmir” like the Rambam is following the advice of the yetzer hora.Bravo, Syag, for your valiant attempts to get AAQ to see his hypocrisy and blatant bias, but I’m afraid (just as this post) that it won’t make a dent.
BTW, Avirah, in NYS they are trying l”a to destroy the yeshivos.
DY,
this is well beyond Rambam, both in opinions and in issues, see above. I am not sure why is everyone so emotional here .. So many poskim discuss the issue, suddenly I am a hater by trying to get some clarity.As you see, I was trying to find sources supporting the position opposite to mine. There seems to be 3 hoops you need to jump thru:
1) learn by taking someone else’s money. You say, we are not machmir like Rambam, Shoin, be meikel. Even as Lakewood Vaad tries to use Rambam. But this is just 1 step2) Can we use non-Jewish public assistance in general.
You guys are saying that public assistance is not tzedoka. And this off-hand remark by R Henneman says same. My difficulty with this is that even accepting R Henneman idea, YD has a more general statement about not relying on people. Here I am more curious about halachic process rather than the end result. It seems like a reasonable sevora that as we live in the state that provides equal access to these services to everyone and we pay equal taxes, we should be able to use those services.3) and this is my biggest difficulty – can we use those public sources for poor in order to support learning.
Approach may depend on how we explain the issue (2) above and whether this explanation
extends to allowing using these funds for extra things. From my naive sevorah in (2), this does not look good – society dedicated funds to help poor people (or by R Henneman, took money from other people), and we are using it for a different reason. Maybe I am biased by Republican thinking (see Gingrich welfare reform), and Dems look at public assistance differently. I was told here that some public assistance does not require looking for work, for example. Possibly some does not, like medicaid and family-based assistance. I checked SNAP in a couple of states and it seems to require actually looking for work. Maybe we can say that non-Jews ignore their laws & regulations in practice and case workers are happily giving cash to everyone, and we can just follow their practice. I am not sure why I am trying to guess through this process. I am hoping that those who go for it, have asked shailohs and can explain how this is supported halachikally. And why being machmir in such issue is not preferable when possible. [ that is not in the times or places where we need to protect our society from shmad and such]Not to throw too much here, but there is also aspect of dependency on government. as R Shach paskened when Begin became prime-minister – do not take too much gov assistance and dismantle your own financial network. A different government will come, take this away, and you will have no funds. Could the same danger exist in US? If another Republican wave comes in and does another welfare-type reform, limiting assistance to volunteer non-workers, would the system survive?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“now much time would it take for a smart person to work to substitute for welfare benefits, let’s skip medicare. To earn $1,000 at $20/hour, you need 50 hours a month, or 1.5 work days per week. I think one can be a full-time learner and carry that big of a load. “
$12,000 per year is below the poverty line for even a single person.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I am not sure why is everyone so emotional here .. So many poskim discuss the issue, suddenly I am a hater by trying to get some clarity. “
You are coming from a starting point that does not seem to be Torah based, in fact acknowledged with, “[m]aybe I am biased by Republican thinking.” In your “halachic” arguments you set the arrow in the place that you want it and then draw a target around it using a throw-random-stuff-at-the-wall-and-maybe-I-can-hack-together-a-cogent-sounding-argument approach. Your responses to others make frequent use of subject changes rather than directly addressing their points. When discussing the Lakewood community you shift way too easily into breezy assumptions of illegal activity. If you were named Jim Jones I’d say you were antisemitic.
As far as your assertion that you can go against the modern poskim with the Rambam because the Lakewood vaad itself cited the Rambam – do you realize that the vaad specifically cited the Rambam there as a rebuke to those who abuse the Rambam to hate on full-time Torah learning?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“There seems to be 3 hoops you need to jump thru: 1) learn by taking someone else’s money. You say, we are not machmir like Rambam, Shoin, be meikel. Even as Lakewood Vaad tries to use Rambam. But this is just 1 step”
As I said in a previous post, the Lakewood vaad cites the Rambam as a rebuke to those who try and turn the Rambam into a sword against Torah learning. And you can repeat over and over “machmir like Rambam” and “be meikel”, but the repetition does not make it true. Your position is the meikel one. There seems to be no hoop here at all. Next.
“2) … YD has a more general statement about not relying on people. Here I am more curious about halachic process rather than the end result. It seems like a reasonable sevora that as we live in the state that provides equal access to these services to everyone and we pay equal taxes, we should be able to use those services.”
We’re not discussing relying on people, but on government programs that the citizens pay into with their taxes. You should avoid utilizing public roads, as that is also “relying on people”. No hoop here either. Next.
“3) and this is my biggest difficulty – can we use those public sources for poor in order to support learning.”
If you qualify for the programs, absolutely. See it rather as supporting healthy and stable families and children.
So far the hotdog is pretty tasty.
“I checked SNAP in a couple of states and it seems to require actually looking for work.”
And I responded many posts ago that there are exceptions to this requirement that are quite apropos to most Jewish families, and you ignored it.
“[ that is not in the times or places where we need to protect our society from shmad and such]”
That is certainly this time and place.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“but there is also aspect of dependency on government. as R Shach paskened when Begin became prime-minister – do not take too much gov assistance and dismantle your own financial network. A different government will come, take this away, and you will have no funds. Could the same danger exist in US? If another Republican wave comes in and does another welfare-type reform, limiting assistance to volunteer non-workers, would the system survive?”
I think this is the best argument against using public funds. I believe the government money being discussed in Israel referred to funding for schools. Many in Israel go to Yeshivos that don’t receive government funds, but the families themselves get the child allowances, etc. As far as the U.S. government programs – contrary to Reagan’s welfare queen polemic, the programs help families, but are not typically the ikar of their parnassa. So if they went away, things would become much more challenging, but iyH the “system” wouldn’t collapse.
Avram > $12,000 per year is below the poverty line for even a single person.
Whose poverty line? You don’t think this is sufficient for a person who wants to learn. And we presume here that the wife volunteers to agree to that lifestyle and even works.
The wife is entitled to the maximal of his and her family lifestyles. So, if he marries someone from the same learning background, then he does not need to spend too much on her and can even learn this way even if the wife is not fully happy (agreement is preferred, of course).
Avram > You are coming from a starting point that does not seem to be Torah based, in fact acknowledged with, “[m]aybe I am biased by Republican thinking.”
This is an important point. I understand your feelings but not your logic. It just seems that certain cultural and historical trends became so entrenched that there is internalization that this is the only Torah and defensive reaction to that. It is a reasonable reaction, and we had similar reactions in history. For example, we found ways to distance from religions that use our books…
It _seems_ to me that the community went too much in this direction, well past the time of danger we were protecting from. And that is why I am pondering this. I am not 100% sure that this is right. That is, if I were a Lakewood parnas, I would not start introducing math classes into BMG, but I would go discuss this and maybe do experiments. And as it unfortunately happens in online forums, discussing a position unfortunately leads to making and taking shots. I am trying to be impartial, but maybe I failed, To clarify, I am not claiming any facts, for example, that kollel members collect welfare. I am just saying that – as a matter of Jewish attitude – they should not. If someone says to me that they usually don’t, I’ll be happy to hear that.
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