No police protection for a week

But police don’t protect those people.

YW Fan

so in your view the choices are a Police force that kills unarmed felons with no consequences or nothing?

L’ma’aseh, one of these cases was a clear murder (we have it on tape) where the policeman was under no threat at all before putting someone in a fatal chokehold. I don’t care that the guy had breathing/heart conditions, that’s still murder in any other case.

On the other hand, there are smart ways to protest and there are not smart ways. Many are choosing the not-smart.

YW fan there is nothing there to change anybody’s mind. I hope.

The video of Garner being killed is widely available. If not enought o convict, at the least it shouldve led to a trial that it didnt is a travesty of justice that should lead all to protest.

This line “he died as a result of poor health and cardiac arrest. Mr. Garner was obese and had a history of asthma, diabetes, and other health issues resulting from his poor medical condition.” is even more nonsense, so using this “logic” if I kill someone who is oxygen dependent by say clamping on his O2 supply, I am not culpable since if the victim dint require a steady oxygen supply, my clmaing a tube wouldnt have harmed him. That he suffered from chronic ailments is reason for the police to have been even more cautious in how they subdue the non-violent felon, not less so!

Bottom line, had Eric Garner been compliant, he probably would still be alive. Instead, he had attitude, and did not do what the officer told him. If you were stopped by a cop on the street, what would you do? I know I would be EXTREMELY respectful. He did not deserve to die for his crime, but he was certainly complicit in his own death. His actions were the proximate cause of the way in which he was handled by the police. Sad, and tragic for him and for his family, but still the result of his own initial response to the police.

I would not want to be a police officer for any amount of money.

G-d bless them for the good that they do, risking their lives to protect us. And if some of them are merely donut eaters and nothing more, I am fairly certain they are in the minority.

The only thing with which I agree with many people, is that I was a bit surprised the grand jury did not vote to indict the officer. This case was totally different from the one in Missouri, where the officer really had no choice. The officer in the Garner case could have been found not guilty in trial, but I think there should have been a trial.

Eric Garner resisted arrest forcing the officer to subdue him so he is responsible for his own demise.

Even if he could breathe, that doesn’t mean he can breathe enough to live, which is kind of the point.

YW are you serious? It means he is about to stop breathing A body cant sustain breathing @ 50 for too long, especially if in spite of that he isnt oxygenating well.

So let me get this straight, if im choking somone he says I cant breathe I cant breathe then passes out and dies. I didnt kill him, since obviously he was able to breathe while I choked him (since he was talking), and then he just happned to pass out for some other reason nothing to do with my chokehold on his neck. Do you actually beleive this?

Picturesq, resisting arrest doenst carry the death penalty

In English that is called choking to death

Lior: Watch the video before you comment.

Sam: I’m not claiming to be an expert on the sequence of events and thus am asking a question that you can kindly answer rather than referring me to external content. Please share your knowledge of what occurred and how my question would be answered by that.

This idea that if someone gives a cop an attitude they deserve to die or be beaten up is sickening. The only time a Cop can kill someone and not be a murderer is if it was reasonable for him to assume that his life was in danger and the only way that danger could be averted would be by using deadly force.

There is no way on earth that this was the case in the Eric Garner case, and there was no reason at all for the Cop to come up behind someone who had their hands in the air and choke them the way that cop did. I don’t care if he was calling the cops all sorts of names (it just happens that he wasn’t) or whatever, Cops do not have any more of a right to beat people up for disrespecting them then any other civilian does. At most Eric Garner is complicit in his own death to the extent that someone who insults someone who then proceeds to kill them is complicit in their own death, and I don’t think he was even disrespecting the officers.

Lior, how far could he run?

To quote YW fan “He wheezed when he talked and could not walk a block without resting, they said”

Lior, my comment was in jest.

To be honest I’m not sure what they should have done, it isnt relevant. Bottom line is an non-violent man dies at the hands of the police, and it was deemed so acceptable that the case wont even go to trial.

It is perfectly reasonable to protest this gross miscarriage of justice, I don’t know what they shouldve done (for arguments sake) let their lawyers make their argument in front of a jury, and they Garner will never have theoppurtunity, is a compelling reason to protest (peacefully)

Do you and YW fan really find the above to be so unreasonable?

ubiquitin: Most certainly it *is* relevant. And no, I fully support anyone’s right to *peacefully* and lawfully protest anything under the sun, however reasonable or unreasonable it is. But Garner resisted arrest. The officer had an *obligation* to subdue him in order to place him under arrest. If the officer acted lawfully in enforcing the arrest he was placing the alleged perpetrator (Garner) in, then there is no reason to put the officer on trial for doing his duty as a law enforcement officer. Note that putting innocent folks on trial is akin to putting the person through hell, with the months and years the trial will consume of his life and the fortune it will cost his non-rich bank account in legal fees even if he is ultimately exonerated.

Then we should never disagree with anything, because everything that happens is the Rozon of Hashem!

Ummm… I just watched the video. He was clearly resisting arrest. After he said “I can’t breathe” the police officer removed his arm from around the neck. He then stuck to restraining the arm after which Eric was still speaking meaning he was breathing. So based on the video I would say no, he was not choked to death. The protesters keep showing the still of the chokehold- they don’t show that he was alive and alert after that.

RebYidd23- “Then we should never disagree with anything, because everything that happens is the Rozon of Hashem!”.

Tell me something, What Yeshiva did you learn in? You have Bechira, but what the cop did was

very good! Not only did G-d like his actions, even the government found nothing wrong with them. The posters here & the demonstrators are just being PC!

ubiquiin:

I am not going to reread the entire thread to check the exact posts where YWfan made his posts, I just acknowledged a compliment. But what I have said is that there is no way it could have been called murder, and on this point I am sure there is agreement.

Violence may have been used excessively, by which I mean that had they simply pushed him, twisted his arms, whatever, and used reasonable force, I would believe they were completely justified, even had he died, as he was resisting arrest. However, re watching the video, I believe the measures they used were excessive. Because whilst they were right to restrain him, as he was not coming quietly, they went a bit too far.

Repeat, a bit too far. Not way too far, not a public execution. Just that had they used common sense, they would have realised that a chokehold was not necessary to restrain him. So yes, I believe there is a measure of culpability there not for being killers or thugs (I do not know whether the chokehold is permitted, but that’s all just academic), but for, at that moment, having a common sense failure, and going over the top in restraining a man who would probably have dealt with it better had they used less dramatic tactics. If you watch the video, he begins struggling properly as soon as the arms go around his head, whilst before that he was just being evasive. Simply twisting his arms around would have been easier for both parties. But Garner himself was lying to the police and being difficult, so it’s not as if they could have been much less physical.

So, to sum up, there was culpability on both sides. Garner was being needlessly difficult, so the police had to restrain him in some way, but the police went too far in the measures they used, although I am certain they, at that moment, intended to do their job, and to call them malicious is ridiculous. As is saying it was a racism issue, which it clearly wasn’t.

Furthermore, they had no way of knowing the large man not coming quietly before them had asthma or sleep apnoea, or whatever, so they could hardly be expected to even consider that a method that does not generally pose a risk to life would kill a man, if it was that which killed him (It is entirely possible it wasn’t, I am not sure). So there should be no question of them standing before a murder trial, especially if the methods used were in compliance with regulations.

So to sum up, they may have been stupid at the time, and went too far in doing their job, a common scenario in police work as wnybody who has been pulled over by them probably knows, but they had no way of knowing there was any risk of death, as the fact that he later died, if related, was certainly unforeseeable at the moment the force was applied. And Garner, being as fragile as he was, should have come quietly initially, as, observing the video, he leaves them little choice but to restrain him, even if they did go too far in doing so.

One of the reasons I mistrust this whole ‘murder’ narrative is that there is a cut in the middle of the movie. If you watch any Palestinian propaganda videos, where Israeli brutality is supposedly shown, there are always cuts, which mean the video leaves out the part where the supposed victim was violent or difficult. Does anybody know why there is a cut in the Garner video? Because to me it looks suspicious.

Gamanit: So? If you shoot someone and he lays on the ground screaming in pain and takes an hour for him to finally die, is that not murder? This is no different.

NE: If I had to guess, that cut in the video made it inadmissable as evidence which is probably why there was no indictment. I would love to hear what the cops involved said under oath. Unfortunately, we never will.

Health

you are making less and less sense, in the wild west theri was free reign to kill whomever you didnt like, we do not live in the wild west, that is why the police should be held to a standard and answer for their actions.

you must have a different list of 7 mitzvos, mine doesnt include selling loose cigarettes. What on Earth are you talking about,.

Please don’t insult the Torah by dragging it in to defend your krum bloodthirsty shitos. Everybody from Reform going full circle to Neturei karta also claims they have the Torah on their side. If you have a source indicating that selling loose cigarettes or resisting arrest is punishable by the death penalty fine otherwise stop claiming to speak for Hashem.

Firstly, the opening question is hypothetical, and so I won’t deal with that. My issue with the protests are twofold. Firstly, they are mainly about racism and not purely police brutality. And I do not think there is any case for saying this was racist. Secondly, if what they were doing is what the law permits, then it cannot go to trial. When I said they were partly responsible, it is for not using common sense to determine that using a chokehold was necessary, but not that they had done any criminal action. The law instructs it’s officers to arrest those in violation of it’s dictum, and to restrain them if they resist, which he was certainly doing. They were stupid to use this particular tactic in this case, but not criminal. They are not murderers, and as such should not be prosecuted.

Of course, protests should always be allowed, and if they choose to make an issue out of it, even if I personally disagree, they should be free to protest without repercussion, so long as they are peaceful. And in the other cases, such as that of Darren Wilson, they are certainly being ridiculous to demand any further process, as the law has been seen to, and what they are asking for is more a lynching than anything else. But as long as they cause no trouble (which many of them have), their rights to free speech should not be curbed.

And of course it was unforeseeable at that moment. This officer had probably arrested many people, some in this manner, like many such arrests nationwide. I’m sure some were obese, out of breath, whatever. The fact that his life was at risk was not something they should have realised, even if he ‘looked unhealthy’. Being fat doesn’t give you asthma or any of the other illnesses he purportedly had.