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I have a confession to make. Some times when I’m short for time and can’t find a parking spot I will nab a spot in front of a shul. They usually take up a few spots and are usually empty anyways. I usually keep it to under an hour like I wouldn’t plop my car there for 2 hours.. I’m just wondering how bad it is what I am doing? I really don’t want to stop and I guess I just want to know who else here does it and if its really such an aveira? Of course I would never block a private or commercial driveway.
P. S. The spots in front of churches are usually taken even though they are half a block! However I can’t bring myself to park in their spots even when they are open, I feel it would be a chillul Hashem.
You can get a parking ticket for illegal parking.
Who is losing out by your parking there? Sounds like its a victimless crime.
If you’re wearing a yarmulke/hat and parking under a “no parking” sign – why would you feel it’s not a chillul Hashem?
Bacause it’s not immoral, it’s a calculated risk.
You would agree, though, that parking in front of a fire hydrant would potentially be a chillul Hashem, right?
It’s not immoral, but it is illegal.
Crossing the street on red, when there are no cars for miles in sight, is also illegal.
It is not illegal, rather punishable. In other countries however, parking in front of a shul is a scare and so should never be done.
A bigger issue is parking in front of someones driveway (and Blocking it) because YOU are late to Minyan
While I am all in favor of following laws, there are some that need to be changed because they are plainly stupid, useless, and only cause problems. The No Parking zone in front of a shul is without purpose. I understand the fire hydrants. Even the bus stops (though way too much space is sacrificed for busses). The shul thing produces zero benefit, only providing the revenue for illegal parking. This is a feature of the current climate that penalizes drivers for operating automobiles so that they can balance the city budget. It has never made sense. But with the current mayor, no one will ever consider removing these No Parking zones so that there is enough room for people to park.
I just want to mention again, that I have no problem parking in front of people’s driveways. You don’t own the street.
See my published works about this. To sumamrize: you get me towed, I break your windows, you try to figure out who I am, but you can’t. We both lose, but I feel like I won.
Traffic laws serve a purpose and not to annoy
I was driving yesterday down Coney Island Ave past a school and people were TRIPLE PARKED in order to drop their daughters off.
I practically had to drive on the wrong side of the road to get past this school. One or 2 cars almost hit me after they dropped their daughters off and tried to get back on Coney Island Ave
News flash for all of you who think there’s “no reason” for you not to park at No Parking signs: Those signs are for designated areas where people with HANDICAPPED PERMITS can park! So for every time you think it is “just an hour or so” that you need to park there to go Daven, or shop, or just because youre a bit too lazy to look further for a LEGAL SPOT, remember, you may very well be taking away a spot from, and causing additional pain and Agmas Nefesh to a handicapped person who will have to park further away because of your inconsideration, and breaking off the law!
Zahavasdad:
A bigger issue is parking in front of someones driveway (and Blocking it) because YOU are late to Minyan
Back in my days in the states, I was a watch commander for our local citizens patrol. The city officer who rode with me used to ticket cars blocking driveways near the shules; I guess since the men were late to minyan, they decided it was OK to inconvenience the homeowners. It was a true chillul Hashem, as the officer knew why they parked that way.
popa_bar_abba
I just want to mention again, that I have no problem parking in front of people’s driveways. You don’t own the street.
Yes, but the government gives the property owner the exclusive right via statute to the parking space in front of the driveway.
You have mentioned in a previous post that you are a rov. Please provide the justification under Halacha for the proposition that a) you can freely violate this law; and b) that you can interfere with the property rights of another person, particularly another Jew.
popa_bar_abba
See my published works about this. To sumamrize: you get me towed, I break your windows, you try to figure out who I am, but you can’t. We both lose, but I feel like I won.
A good feeling–for a 12 year old. Again, how do you justify a) breaking the law; and b) damaging the property of another person, particularly another Jew?
By the way, half of my neighbors in Borough Park have closed circuit TV. I am sure the police would just love to see the tape of someone breaking windows especially when they already have the license plate of the one blocking the driveway.
You have mentioned in a previous post that you are a rov. Please provide the justification under Halacha for the proposition that a) you can freely violate this law; and b) that you can interfere with the property rights of another person, particularly another Jew.
Sure, no problem.
a. According to many opinions dina d’malchusa dina only applies where the government has an interest.
b. They don’t give you a property right in the parking space. If they had, you would be able to sue someone who parked there for trespass–which you cannot. They just set up traffic rules to allow for orderly traffic, which includes not blocking driveways. Since the owner of the driveway will not mind if he himself blocks it–and in fact, we may as well have him park there if nobody else can anyway–they allow him to park there. But, that just means I am breaking a traffic law. You have no more right to be upset at me than if I randomly don’t pay a meter on Avenue J.
By the way, half of my neighbors in Borough Park have closed circuit TV. I am sure the police would just love to see the tape of someone breaking windows especially when they already have the license plate of the one blocking the driveway.
Don’t be ridiculous. I’m going to hire some immigrant kids to do it for me. And they’ll wear ski masks. I’ll buy them the ski masks.
All I’m saying is: Before you call that tow truck, you better come on the CR and verify that I’m not in Boro Park that day. Just for your own welfare.
And I hope the shovels shoveled in your driveway with snow.
a. According to many opinions dina d’malchusa dina only applies where the government has an interest.
Which means what?
b. They don’t give you a property right in the parking space. If they had, you would be able to sue someone who parked there for trespass–which you cannot.
Trust me. Blocking someone’s drivway is indeed actionable in the New York courts. Google is a poor substitute for law school.
You have no more right to be upset at me than if I randomly don’t pay a meter on Avenue J.
Only by some twisted logic. Your blocking my driveway directly impacts me.
Don’t be ridiculous. I’m going to hire some immigrant kids to do it for me. And they’ll wear ski masks. I’ll buy them the ski masks.
All I’m saying is: Before you call that tow truck, you better come on the CR and verify that I’m not in Boro Park that day. Just for your own welfare.
I’m not worried. In fact, these messages will be great evidence in court.
And I hope the shovels shoveled in your driveway with snow.
I refuse to believe someone who is an ordained rabbi wrote this. In fact, it’s even harder to believe that a Jew with a yeshiva education is the writer.
Mods, why do you allow such sinas chinum to be posted?
I’m not sure I got you. If you’re blocking another’s car in the driveway, he has all the reason to be upset. Same if you’re blocking / preventing his entry to his own driveway. You’re doing that homeowner an avlah.
What get’s to me (as I don’t own a driveway), is why those that do have their own driveways park on the regular places. Why use a space from those who cannot park in a driveway? Can’t they too be considerate?
I live all the way out east in LI and don’t really have this problem with parking. I always felt bad for you city folk with all the congestion everywhere. But I think the fact that there are too many shules/too few parking spots be the least of your problems! I would call the shule and ask if it is ok. It is their reshus to do with what they want. If it is only the government that prohibits it and the shule is fine with it I would not worry about it unless they give you a ticket.
Oh Shreck! I have a driveway, and the reason that I prefer to park on the street is to avoid getting blocked in by popa_bar_abba, and other inconsiderate drivers who don’t bother to check if they are parked with derech eretz.
Trust me. Blocking someone’s drivway is indeed actionable in the New York courts. Google is a poor substitute for law school.
Yes, but Westlaw is a decent substitute. There are 39 NY published cases which have the word block within 2 words of driveway. I skimmed the ones that seemed relevant, and none established a tort of trespass or any other tort for blocking a driveway from the public road. Damnum absque injuria, baby! Where did you go to law school?
Your blocking my driveway directly impacts me.
Of course it impacts you. The same as if I get the last bottle of coke at the supermarket which you wanted. The point is though, that it is not impacting a property right that you have.
I’m not worried. In fact, these messages will be great evidence in court.
Of course. You’ll subpoena the CR’s records, then track me through my IP, then claim in court that this proves I was the one who broke your windows. I’m sure you’ll win on that. Again–where did you go to law school?
I refuse to believe someone who is an ordained rabbi wrote this. In fact, it’s even harder to believe that a Jew with a yeshiva education is the writer.
I typed it. Not wrote it.
I’m not sure I got you. If you’re blocking another’s car in the driveway, he has all the reason to be upset. Same if you’re blocking / preventing his entry to his own driveway. You’re doing that homeowner an avlah.
I’m objecting to the fact that they are building driveways and monopolizing public spaces, and especially since many are illegal, or even if legal, are not approved by taking into account the public’s needs. And in that context, especially to the attitude that if someone blocks them for 2 seconds that they fly off the handle.
And the reason I started advocating for self help was in response to them yelling about how they’ll get us towed. I’m pointing out that force goes both ways and that people who live in houses with glass windows shouldn’t throw tow trucks.
Zd,
It’s been a little while since I’ve cruised the whole Coney Island ave. however I do not recall any Jewish girls schools on CIA. Something seems fishy.
There is a bais Yaakov somewhere betwwen kings highway and the Belt.
It seems to be a fairly new building.
Just because you never heard of it, doesnt mean it doesnt exist
Just because you say it, doesn’t mean it exists.
Between Kings highway and the Belt is quite a stretch. You would have to be more specific than that.
Its one the Southbound side (going towards the Belt) and a Grey Brick building and I think there is an empty lot next to it
I think Ateret Torah has a girls’ school on Coney.
…Google “Bet Yakov Ateret Torah High School”. You’ll find the address is:
2166 Coney Island Ave
Brooklyn, NY 11223
looks like pba created an alter ego, bpm in order to have a conversation since nobody takes what he/she/it writes seriously.
How you talk.
You think Hashem cares if I park there or if BPM does? Probably Hashem thinks whoever gets there first should park there.
Why do you assume that he has the right and I am bothering him. Maybe I have the right and he is bothering me?
All I’m doing is breaking a traffic law.
Popa, WIY was talking about when someone was already parked in their driveway and you blocked their car.
DY: Yeah, that wouldn’t be so nice, if you parked there for a long time. But I think Hashem would be ok with it if you just had to run in somewhere. That sounds reasonable.
Popa, I don’t agree, but even l’shitoscha, people who live near shuls or k’domeh would be constantly blocked, for a few minutes at a time.
Popabarabba, I thought your original post was meant to be facetious, and I’m somehow hoping it still was, and that some people here mistakenly took you seriously. If you were in fact serious, then you have some major problem with thinking its ok to block someone’s car that is parked in their own driveway, even for “only a minute” (and in all honesty, when is it ever just for a minute?!)! My friend, who lives near Coney Island ave and Ave J, a very congested shopping area, had her car blocked while she was parked in her own driveway, by someone who I’m sure also meant only to inconvenience her for “just A minute.” And just at that “moment,” my friend got an emergency call saying her father had been rushed by ambulance to the hospital! And since she couldn’t get her car out of her own driveway, she was forced to lose precious time by having to call a car service to rush her to the hospital! Do you really still believe Hashem doesn’t mind that kind of disgusting lack of Mentshlichkeit? Even “for just a minute?”
I honestly don’t think Hashem approves of knowingly causing anther Jew pain, discomfort. If that spot is reserved for his entry and you’re knowingly blocking him – no, Hashem definitely disapproves.
If he missed your act, or does not need that spot now, for whatever reason, then maybe yes. On the other hand, maybe not – you’re initiation a confrontation, you’re tempting another into machlokes, strife. No need for that.
It’s called Trespass to Chatel and it is most certainly actionable.
Although a rav I spoke with once said that it’s preferable under halacha to either smash the car out of the way or have it towed and not even deal with civil authority.
Popa,
Are you an ordained Orthodox Jewish rabbi? Yes or no answer, please.
Whether or not you are a rabbi, as a Jew, I ask you again how you justify a) law breaking and b) causing physical damage to the property of another Jew. Please answer. There are many others here more learned in the Torah than I who will surely look forward to your psak Halacha. On the other hand, perhaps you are waiting for Purim.
Now I see you are delving into the law.
Are you an attorney admitted to practice before the highest courts of any of the United States? Yes or no answer, please.
As for the rest of this silliness, I cannot devote much time, but I balance this against the risk that people will read what you post and believe it to be accurate. It is not.
Posted by Borough Park Mensch
Trust me. Blocking someone’s driveway is indeed actionable in the New York courts. Google is a poor substitute for law school.
Reply by popa_bar_abba
Yes, but Westlaw is a decent substitute. There are 39 NY published cases which have the word block within 2 words of driveway. I skimmed the ones that seemed relevant, and none established a tort of trespass or any other tort for blocking a driveway from the public road. Damnum absque injuria, baby! Where did you go to law school?
I would not spend one billable second on Westlaw looking for these cases. How would you think a case of driveway blocking would wind up reported? Do you think anyone has the money to bring such a case before a court that would write and publish an opinion? Do you think most people have the money to defend such a case before such a court? This is the same reason there are so few reported decisions involving parking tickets. Few people can afford to bring them to the appellate courts. The nonsense here is that there is a decision on every point of law imaginable. There is not. I encourage people to go to Small Claims.
Posted by Borough Park Mensch
Your blocking my driveway directly impacts me.
Reply by popa_bar_abba
Of course it impacts you. The same as if I get the last bottle of coke at the supermarket which you wanted. The point is though, that it is not impacting a property right that you have.
Wrong answer.
Reply by popa_bar_abba
Of course. You’ll subpoena the CR’s records, then track me through my IP, then claim in court that this proves I was the one who broke your windows. I’m sure you’ll win on that. Again–where did you go to law school?
Posted by Borough Park Mensch
I refuse to believe someone who is an ordained rabbi wrote this. In fact, it’s even harder to believe that a Jew with a yeshiva education is the writer.
Reply by popa_bar_abba
I typed it. Not wrote it.
Reply by popa_bar_abba
I’m objecting to the fact that they are building driveways and monopolizing public spaces, and especially since many are illegal, or even if legal, are not approved by taking into account the public’s needs. And in that context, especially to the attitude that if someone blocks them for 2 seconds that they fly off the handle.
A tortfeasor (one who commits a civil wrong as opposed to a crime) takes his victim the way he finds him.
Reply by popa_bar_abba
And the reason I started advocating for self help was in response to them yelling about how they’ll get us towed. I’m pointing out that force goes both ways and that people who live in houses with glass windows shouldn’t throw tow trucks.
This paragraph fairly well sums up the nonsense contained in your posts.
Again, someone who claims to observe the Torah should not advocate intentionally damaging the property of others.
Are you an ordained Orthodox Jewish rabbi? Yes or no answer, please.
Yes, yoreh yadin.
Whether or not you are a rabbi, as a Jew, I ask you again how you justify a) law breaking and b) causing physical damage to the property of another Jew. Please answer. There are many others here more learned in the Torah than I who will surely look forward to your psak Halacha. On the other hand, perhaps you are waiting for Purim.
I answered that already.
Are you an attorney admitted to practice before the highest courts of any of the United States? Yes or no answer, please.
Decline to answer.
I would not spend one billable second on Westlaw looking for these cases.
Unlimited account baby.
Meh, evidence is not a required course.
A tortfeasor (one who commits a civil wrong as opposed to a crime) takes his victim the way he finds him.
I’m not sure why you think you’re an eggshell plaintiff. And even more unsure how that is relevant.
BP Mentch – You do sound like a mentch!
Oh, and btw popa, I’m not so familiar with the halacha, isn’t there a concept of ???? ????? ???? ??????. So if he wants to park in his driveway, rightfully, and one is blocking him, shouldn’t he be in his right halachakly to remove the offender?
WIY:
Thanks. I enjoy a REAL level-headed response.
I was just wondering why, and what gain does one get by having the offender ticketed? Isn’t towing enough? I thought one is supposed to try to minimize the damage, maybe I was wrong?
Oh, and btw popa, I’m not so familiar with the halacha, isn’t there a concept of ???? ????? ???? ??????. So if he wants to park in his driveway, rightfully, and one is blocking him, shouldn’t he be in his right halachakly to remove the offender?
Of course. If he had a right to the land I was on. Which he doesn’t.
It’s called Trespass to Chatel and it is most certainly actionable.
You are confusing the parties. If he towed my car, that would be trespass to chatel. (Of course, he could simply call the police who would ticket it, but that is my risk to take.)
Papa, you wouldn’t know who slashed your tires. I’d wait a month, so the two events wouldn’t be linked, and find your car. Be careful with threats
lesschumras:
That is a good point. See, lesschumras makes good points.
So the way I address that, is I always break the windows of anyone whose driveway I blocked. Just in case.
My, my. How quickly this thread has deteriorated into the infantile name calling and challenging about character instead of the subject matter. Can anybody rescue this discussion from the bowels of personal battle? Otherwise, perhaps it be closed.
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