No more kids divrei Torah before Avodim Hayinu

You sound angry

Which part of it do is getting to you, your kids or the Torah ?

I was listening tonight to the Siyum on Pesachim being livestreamed here on YWN by a group affiliated with Agudah. Several speakers spoke of how we have “squeezed out” or equivalent terms, the “joy” of pesach among our children by fixating on some of the minutiae of how we celebrate yetzias mitzrayim at the seder and not allowing children to be children. I can imagine kinderlach after this past year who might have learned a vert and are bursting with enthusiasm to share it with their family as the seder begins and there being shouted down to WAIT!!, NOT YET!! or OFF TOPIC!! Most parents would be thrilled if their kids were so anxious to share a DT at any point in the seder. I guess we just disagree.
A gutten and kosher yom tove.

everyone run the sder according to the minhag and misorah, our family for example does not talk out during the entire magid from halachma anya till goal yisroel even to say divray torah, so each to his/her own

I once said a milsah d’bedichasah with the following taich:
in the paragraph of the Chochom child he asks and asks and asks from his huge piles of notes that he brings to the Seder table, one dvar torah after another…”Mo ho’eidus v’hachukim, v’hamishpotim…etc”. Everyone is falling asleep trying to understand, fighting to stifle their yawns. One person though is beaming with pride: the father! Even if he doesn’t understand all of it, his nachas knows no bounds. Says the Baal Haggadah, “Af ata emor lo kehilchas hapesach, ein maftirin achar pesach afikoymon”. Have pity on the rest of the family! You too, tell the kid, that just like there’s no food after eating the afikoymon, one more dvar torah and you ain’t getting any supper tonight!

You do that. But do not wonder why your kids do not find excitment in yideshkeit. By viewing it as a burden is the best way to make your kids have the same negative aditude as you. pretty stupid move.

interesting most of your topic are trollish

The seder is not for you but for the children for the year, instilling proper emunah and betochan in them, so you should be happy for their enthusiasm. If you are not careful, you will thwart their interest.

Make them realize that Hashem leads the world and reward and punishment is in His hands as it indicates to say the Haggadah, when matza. the good and maror, the bad are infront of you.

So, if we actually fulfil the mitzva of helping kids ask questions and then attempt to answer, now the difficult part: what do you do when questions are uncomfortable – say, kids see inconsistency or hypocrisy on your behavior? or if you do not know the answer to the question and there is no internet to look up under the table? Do you say – I was wrong, I do not know, or try to come up with tirutzim?

This is a teaching moment. Some seforim say it is important for parents to say “I do not know” in front of kids to model the right behavior.

TGI, I understood Leyzer bringing distinction between children asking questions and children reading school-prepared Divrei Torah. While the latter approach has a lot of value, does it prepare them to listen to their parents’ Torah or to dominate conversation with ideas brought from school? For some reason, Torah wants us to get together as a family unit. Maybe parents whose children come to the seder with answers instead of questions have an extra challenge – get kids raise from reading those stories to start asking questions.

Is this the 6th son? We have 4 that eiher ask questions or stay silent. None of them have a hutzpah to lecture parents. Lubavichers add the 5th – who did not come. Modern schools/yeshivot (to separate from old yeshivot) added the 6th – the one how has answers and no questions.

RebE, thanks, a good point. Will try to answer ..
related: Is rasha preferred to sheina yodea lishol – at least, he is asking

@common, – and rasha and she eino yodea get the same posuk as the answer .. they are clearly related (the source escapes me for a second, after all the cups).

she eino yodea is treated arguably harsher than rasha. “opened up” v. “blunting teeth”? We tend to see the first as clearly figurative and second almost as literal. But if you look at them fairly – literally “blunting teeth” is probably a minor dental procedure while “opening up” sounds more like an invasive surgery… Furthermore, rasha is given a shocking answer that might lead him to a teshuva, while she eino yodea gets the same posuk, possibly with the same meaning, but he is not even shocked …

there are lots of sympathetic views of the 4th son relating to people with no background, etc and they are great, of course – but peshat is: he is sitting with his learned father – he aint an orphan! – and still has no idea – or no interest – how to ask a question, despite all the tricks at the table, eating potatoes in a grotesque way, not counting days spent at school … what is wrong with him or his parents/educators?!

GH, your chilling approach sounds reasonable, but I am not sure how to square it with the Hagada that seems to advise closely following and confronting children where they are instead of pushing it to the next year.

RebE, thanks for supporting the idea of the all-knowing, not-asking students. As I mentioned before, there is a worldwide google-induced decrease in curiosity, so we need to guard for this.

Hafetz Haim brings a similar idea on Chacham being opposite to Rasha rather than Tzaddik in the context of his generation of haskala and trying to protect against it. He says (in probably a shocking for a “frum” person way): some say – you need to be frum, frum, and then klug (i.e. you need a double yirat shamaim to allow you access knowledge, otherwise it is too dangerous), and I am telling you: you should be klug, klug, and then frum. Hope you don’t accuse Hafetz Haim of open orthodoxy

The Haflaah in Sefer Panim Yafos, Parshas Bo, says that a kashyeh comes from Heavenly Intervention, siata dishmaya. He gives a parable to a simple person who received a diamond. He did not know what to do with it but he liked gold. He goes to a goldsmith to cover it in gold. He was not the best expert, so he left some holes. The simple person only sees the gold but the smart person sees the diamond underneath the gold. The Chasam Sofer explains the means of being mechadesh something. All chidushim lie in the Torah hidden but they need to be revealed through a kashyeh. I explained according to this the comparison to the Torah the sweetening of the bitter well with a bitter tree. Sometimes someone learns a piece of gemora being so confused that he can’t even ask a kashyeh. He receives the siyata dishmaya and now he is able to ask a kashyeh but without an answer it is still bitter. When an answer comes to mind, it becomes sweet.

We find by a dayan that he has to clarify the arguments as Shloma Hamelech repeated each one of the women’s argument when claiming the baby. Similarly, we must be sure, before answering the question, that we understand the question we are answering.

@AAQ “as with a guy who asked a shaila whether he can make arba kosot on milk. Rav gave him money for wine – and also for meat.”
That guy could have paskened on his own and not asked a shaila and used milk after all he may have read it on Rabbi Google that you can

@ Reb E and the common demoninator with your story and my comment is?
That am ratzim pasken the own saylios? if thats the case I am 1000% in agreement with you.

We must know when to ask a shaila.

RebE, common, I am enjoying your comment, but maybe I should not have skipped the point of the story: the question about using milk made the Rav undersand that there will be no meat at the table.

common, you got so stuck on me not asking the Rav. I even gave you examples but that did not help you. Call AAA. Interestingly, in a number of cases, I get an explicit opinion rather than psak. Is it experience of others also.

For a fun shaila: a friend of mine dragged his pre-bar-mitzva son to a posek in Mattesdorf to resolve the problem of son not joining the father going to shul for mincha and continuing playing soccer with friends. The posek asked the kid – how long does it take to say mincha? do you think you could get off the field, say mincha and continue playing? The look on father’s face was precious. He eventually moved to a place where everyone goes to mincha and does not play soccer.