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Neville, in those old days, we would not have a problem following minhag hamakom, because we would be from that makom. I do agree that we need to thank chassidim for breaking up communities and opening options, they were ahead of their time, before bund/communistim/tzionim.
> If you make a sphard shul, you’ll disappoint the Ashkenazi-daveners,
Maybe let’s separate between shul policies and personal behaviors. I enjoy davening to sephardi/chasiddic/modern shuls, I daven my own nusach quietly and have no problem to their minhagim overall. As long as they do not force ME to wear a spodak or shorts & sandals.
Incidently, R Soloveichik writes about his childhood memories of peddlers changing their appearance on shabbos into royal garbs. And then going back to peddler clothing after shabbos.
A serious question wheter a shul is for community or not. I think there is a concept of proviate minyanim both in old times and recently. So, a town or neighborhood should have one shul that is welcoming everyone, and those who do not want to welcome everyone can have their private shul. But this resolves the issue?
“So, a town or neighborhood should have one shul that is welcoming everyone, and those who do not want to welcome everyone can have their private shul. But this resolves the issue?”
OK, so if I understand correctly, what’s your kasheh? This shul is presumably not the only shul in this entire town, so you’re free to go elsewhere. If it is the only shul in town, then by your own admission you wouldn’t have a problem conceding to the minhag hamakom. In what theoretical universe do you have an issue with this shul?
Neville > conceding to the minhag hamakom.
I am not conceding that making one dress in black hats and jackets is a legit minhag hamakom.
Speaking of minhagim, I was told a story about R Ovadia Yosef being honored at 7 brochos with some weak ashkenazi “wine”.
Without hesitation, he sang shehakol nihye b’dvoro.“I am not conceding that making one dress in black hats and jackets is a legit minhag hamakom.”
If you appoint your self the arbitrator of which minhagim are and aren’t “legit” then that’s just a fancy way of saying you don’t follow minhag hamakom.“Without hesitation, he sang shehakol nihye b’dvoro.”
Does this have anything to do with anything, or did this story just randomly pop into your head?Give me a historical example where Yidden were mandated some uniform for davening. Outside of beis hamikdash.
Story is about a gadol not compromising his minhag even when it embarrassed the hosts. Maybe he was annoyed that the hosts were either habitually ignorant about sefardi minhagim that are more stringent about wine quality or simply presumed that the guest will be forced to follow host’s minhag – thus the relevance to our discussion.
“Give me a historical example where Yidden were mandated some uniform for davening. Outside of beis hamikdash.”
We already cited sources for you in this very thread. Why do we need to keep rehashing it? Even if you want to say that MB “no longer applies,” it still would be an example of “mandating a uniform for davening.”“Story is about a gadol not compromising his minhag even when it embarrassed the hosts.”
So, in your quest for humility, you compared yourself to the gadol hador… There’s no shaychus. That story entails him not making what he would consider to be a bracha l’vatallah. You can maybe ask why he did it in a way that risks publicly embarrassing people, but nobody would say he should make the bracha with shem and malchus if he holds it’s l’vatallah.That’s an actual machlokes haposkim. This situation is not. Nobody poskens that it’s assur to wear a hat and jacket for davening. In fact, everyone real paskens that you should. This is a machlokes between the poskim and random CR posters.
Neville > Nobody poskens that it’s assur to wear a hat and jacket for davening.
Gemora does and so confirmed by the (very yeshivish) maggid shiur who commented: in my old country, Yidden were very careful not to dress like talmidei chachamim unless they are sure that they are at the level both lemakom and lehavero..
He himself dresses like a talmid chacham but he behaves accordingly. Put yourself in my place: after rav said this to my face, am I allowed to disregard this just because seforim say differently? So if I visit that proverbial shul, would I need a note from the rav? But maybe he wouldn’t let me daven with such people… I’ll try to ask him“Gemora does”
No, it doesn’t.“so confirmed by the (very yeshivish) maggid shiur”
It doesn’t even sound like he said it’s assur to wear a hat. How would he feel about you putting those words in his mouth? Not to mention the thing you’re pretending he said would not even be historically accurate. Everyone, including goyim, wore hats 70 years ago in both America and the alter heim. Since you apparently disregard the Mishnah Berurah as proof, you can look up photographs.“Put yourself in my place: after rav said this to my face, am I allowed to disregard this just because seforim say differently?”
The short answer is yes. If a rav told you to do something that is k’neged widely accepted and written halachah, then there’s no reason not to disregard what he says. Why would you even think otherwise? Again, however, it does not seem like this rav told you not to wear a hat. He said not to dress like a talmid chacham and you took the liberty of interpreting that to suit your own desires. The common application of this in the yeshivish world is that roshei yeshivos wear kapotes and up-brim hats while bochrim wear short jackets and down-brim hats.Even within your crazy shittah, how does it show a lack of humility to dress exactly like everyone else in a given shul? You’re the one insisting on standing out because you want to show off your self-proclaimed humility, which is obviously counterintuitive.
Indeed, he didn’t tell me not to wear a hat, but he didn’t tell me to wear it also:) I tried to give the quote as it was …
I’ve seen many photos of old times, I hope you did but not just ones selected into artscroll biographies but search for general archival ones. In general, Jews dressed like people around them, with various types of headcovers. They all davened in same shuls, I presume.
The point of the gemora and my rav is not to give an impression of a t ch when you’re not behaving like one. I don’t think any outsider makes a difference between brims.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“is not to give an impression of a t ch when you’re not behaving like one.”
This strikes me as one of the most powerful arguments to wear a hat and jacket that I have ever read. If the behavior doesn’t match the clothes, change the behavior, not the clothes!
“I don’t think any outsider makes a difference between brims.”
It also doesn’t make a difference to an outsider how much Torah knowledge you have or not. A non-Jew on the street is not going to ask you a complicated shaila on ribbis or kashrus. And if they did you could let them know you’re not a “T Ch”. Many who don’t have any experience with frum Jews think that anyone in a kippa is a rabbi, so you’re not really solving anything unless you completely hide your Jewishness.
Avram > If the behavior doesn’t match the clothes, change the behavior, not the clothes!
oh, this is a great idea. This was the approach of Alter of Slobodka who introduced dignified (middle class) clothes for yeshiva students – contrary to Novardok that proposed opposite in the name of mussar. And I am sure that many people are undoubtfully inspired this way. But, in reality, not everyone
achieves the right behavior> A non-Jew on the street is not going to ask you a complicated shaila on ribbis or kashrus. And if they did you could let them know you’re not a “T Ch”. Many who don’t have any experience with frum Jews think that anyone in a kippa is a rabbi, so you’re not really solving anything unless you completely hide your Jewishness.
And this is true. Everyone identifiably Jewish should remember this. Still, most non-Jews will call me “Jewish” and will call anyone in a hat – “Rabbi”. More importantly, most non/somewhat-observant Jews hold similar views.
I can confirm that I personally react differently. Due to my many sins, I somehow deserved to sometimes share minyan/simchas with (at least one) very inconsiderate person who dresses like a hoshuve Yid. I tend to disappear into the wall pretending I am not of the same religion every time he parks blocking someone or grabs something first in front of non-observant Yidden. You never had such a feeling?
For another example, in the first couple of weeks of Covid, when our town was under strict mask orders, the Rav told us that he stopped a non-observant (of the governor’s order) kollelnik in the street and explained to him halochos of hillul Hashem. The rav was not a mask extremist and a number of people in his shul disregarded the order also (but dressed like working people), and it is the only time I am aware of him being so direct, especially to outsiders.
AAQ> “is not to give an impression of a t ch when you’re not behaving like one.”
Avram > This strikes me as one of the most powerful arguments to wear a hat and jacket that I have ever read.The other way to look at this is that it is “lo lishma”. You should want to behave appropriately fpr better reasons. Now, we do a lot of “lo lishma” starting with honey on a sefer Torah, and upping it from there as the kid grows up … But, here you are suggesting that whole communities operate on this premise, being protected and encouraged from the cheder to the kever. At some point, an Yid needs to stand on his own and be an erliche Yid.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“But, in reality, not everyone achieves the right behavior”
But we shouldn’t throw out what helps most just because there’s an exception or two.
“I can confirm that I personally react differently … very inconsiderate person who dresses like a hoshuve Yid. I tend to disappear into the wall pretending I am not of the same religion every time he parks blocking someone or grabs something first in front of non-observant Yidden. You never had such a feeling?”
I’m not exactly sure what you’re expressing here. If a guy in a t-shirt and a srugi or a little suede kippa with clips blocked cars and grabbed food before it was time, you wouldn’t feel ashamed to be of the same religion? I don’t feel ashamed to be of the same religion. One can be both a Yid and a jerk, no matter what he chooses to wear. And yes it is a chillul Hashem, but why is it worse than when the srugi wearer does it? You’re arguing that it’s worse when the black hat wearer does it because he looks more erliche, but that seems to be a latent prejudice against the MO. One could argue that it’s worse for the Jew who says clothing doesn’t matter, only behavior, because then he only has his behavior to rely on!
“in the first couple of weeks of Covid, when our town was under strict mask orders”
Wow, you must live in a super conservative area if your town’s mask mandate only lasted the first couple weeks of Covid. Our mandate here lasted years. And in such a conservative area where you are, perhaps the Yid standing up for his right to breathe the free air again was making a kiddush Hashem, per this seeming definition of kiddush Hashem as doing what makes the gentiles happy.
“The other way to look at this is that it is “lo lishma”. You should want to behave appropriately fpr better reasons. Now, we do a lot of “lo lishma” starting with honey on a sefer Torah, and upping it from there as the kid grows up … But, here you are suggesting that whole communities operate on this premise, being protected and encouraged from the cheder to the kever. At some point, an Yid needs to stand on his own and be an erliche Yid.”
Absolutely, whole communites do and should operate on this premise! I am not so haughty that I can say that I do all my mitzvos lishma. Only our greatest tzadikim reached that level. Why stop at clothes? Why not do away with anything that helps us overcome the yetzer hara? Coffee in the shul lobby and beis medrash, pairing community shiurim with food, making a public siyum when finishing a masechta, chazzanus, etc.
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