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Gadol > We should greet them with open arms and encourage them to return.
Indeed, and tzadikim do that. I once stayed for shabbos with a talmid of Bobover Rebbe on the way to a math conference. Bobover Rebbe was met by a line of chassidim in shtreimels, but he quickly made a detour to shake my hand despite, or because of, my modernishe garb.
The V’yalipoler Rav, R’ Frankel, has a son who has a shul in Brooklyn. I had relatives who lived nearby the shul, so I davened there quite a few times.
One Shabbos, the gabbai (who was a friend of my relative) asked me to daven Kabbalas Shabbos for the amud, and I did so. R’ Frankel gave me a heart yasher koach when davening finished.
The next time I visited, there was a change in the shul – the gabbai wasn’t davening there anymore, and there was a new gabbai. He came over to me, and said, “The Rav specifically asked that you go daven for the amud!” This occurred many more times – he had no problem asking me, without a black hat, wearing a colored knit kippah, to daven for the amud.“Gadol > We should greet them with open arms and encourage them to return.
Indeed, and tzadikim do that.”I see your switching to the more popular moderate position in hopes that nobody notices? On the first page of this, nobody was initially saying that the non-hat crowd needs to be embraced so that they will become more frum and start wearing hats/jackets. Your contention–shared with others here–was that there is no inyan of davening in a hat and jacket at all as if you suggest that these people (including the “tzadikkim” you now refer to) are just wasting their time doing it for no reason.
For a little perspective as someone who occasionally davens here.
After a while of this shul being a minyan factory for a while, there were a number of factors that lead the leadership of the shul to try to take it down a notch from being the local minyan factory.
To that end they made a number of changes to make it uncomfortable for such use.
For example, they stopped allowing the E”N from being used for minyanim, limited the frequency of minyanim to the point where they still have more minyanim than most shuls, but hobby shop is probably a better description than factory.
These signs were incorporated along with the other policies, but I’ve personally never seen it enforced.
But ultimately if you want to be insulted by an internal policy within a chasidishe community, in sure you can fill a book with all the things you dislike.
Please follow your mesorah/derech and allow others to do the same within their own lanes.fakenews, thanks for the explanation. Still hard to understand why people would want to exclude other Yidden from a minyan.
Maybe, if there are financial implications – say, visitors use too much heat, break furniture, and overuse parking lot.
If they feel it is a “factory”, they can run the davening itself as they see proper – slower davening, extra piyutim.
There is a famous picture of Rabbi Moshe Feinstein’s first smichah class.
In this picture, none of the smichah students wear black hats or black suits;
all of them wear the clothes and colors that were worn
by most non-Jews in New York City in the 1940s or 1950s.By today’s standards, their clothes would be considered Modern Orthodox.
Square Root, there was an interview with R’ Aaron Rakeffet-Rothkoff, where he spoke about that. Here are his words: “Today we all wear uniforms. What is the concept of wearing a uniform? What is chassidus all about? It’s beautiful. You have a social order, you build a wall around yourself . It’s a way of protecting yourself from outside influence. My generation didn’t need it. When we made a commitment, we made a commitment. That’s what I meant.
But if a black hat will keep you frum in America, you should wear two black hats, not just one. To me, being a Torah Jew is the most important thing in the world .
But when all is said and done, the chassidim conquered America. The Litvakim lost. In the Litvishe yeshivas no one dressed the same. When I learned in Lakewood, the only one who wore a black hat was Reb Aharon Kotler.
Even the old mashgiach, Reb Nosson Wachtfogel, wouldn’t dare wear a black hat. No one wore black pants and white shirts. It was unheard of. Everyone dressed different and stylish.”
The interviewer asked, “So you see the different mode of dress as a sign that chassidim have ‘conquered America’?”
He replied, “More than that. We think like them. There’s da’as Torah. Bachurim worship the ground their rosh yeshiva walks on. That didn’t exist when I grew up. When I grew up the roshei yeshiva were mortals. There was no da’as Torah. You could argue with them. But who ever argued with a chassidic rebbe?”
You had to reveal this?@ now some people when they hear someone having a smicha from r Moshe would ask – what year?
DaMoshe, > old mashgiach, Reb Nosson Wachtfogel, wouldn’t dare wear a black hat
Online pictures show R Wachtfogel in a hat, so he at least owned one for occasions … As to ordinary life, I am trying to recall, I had once an opportunity to go for a walk with him and his grandson. His grandson def was in a hat, but I can’t recall what R Wachtfogel was wearing, as I was listening rather than watching …
To support DaMoshe more generally, I heard in the name of R Zelig Epstein – he was asked how Mir Yeshiva was able to leave Vilno despite daas Torah – R Ozer’s psak to the contrary. His response – that was not an issue as it was before daas Torah (implicit as you write – for Litvakim ).
Its called respect for cultural norms, in the tail end of covid I needed to fly a few times out of JFK in the morning, so I called before I went to shul, YI of N Woodmere had a mask and 6 ft social distance policy, Aguda had a mask policy and no social distance, Rabbi Spiegl shul had no policy, guess what I complied with the rules in whatever shul I davened in inspite of my personal feeling about masking, same holds true in wherever you daven, you can’t conform with the rules daven elsewhere.
There is a story that when Meshiach arrives he goes to a shul with a bend up hat. We wear our hat bent down, he is told. When he goes to another shul with the hat bent down, he is told that they wear the hat bent up. Finally, when he goes to another shul he is told we don’t wear any hats at all. He says that I will return until you can agree and there will be peace and unity.
Common, I am all for respecting minhagim, but just because something is very popular does not make it into a legit minhag. If the generation many of us remember would not dress up as T’Ch unless they are sure of their learning and behavior, it is worthy to emulate them despite social pressure.
Your position seems to call for dressing like Reform when visiting (although visiting is forbidden per se, so my question is purely theoretical).
@AAQ, this is not about minhagim this is about common curtesy, for example if a shul had a policy of no hard liquor at the kiddush and you brought it anyway, its showing that you don’t care about what they think and you as a guest plan to do whatever you want.
common: Do you really not see a difference? There is no chiyuv to have liquor at a kiddush. There is a chiyuv to daven with a minyan.
Commonsaychel: Your mask analogy actually had the opposite effect and caused me to empathize much more with the anti-hat side than I had previously.
Common courtesy has to stop at some point; there’s only so far you can go to appease those around you if they’re asking you to do something crazy to detrimental to yourself or your health. That being said, I still don’t really understand the idea of being against hats. I understand people being apathetic about them, but not full-blown against them like people on here seem to be.
If someone were anti-hat, but also anti-mask, they would get a pass in my book, but I doubt that’s the case. For those who aren’t, they need to take a serious look at themselves and whom they are having respect for in the world: fellow frum Torah-observant yidden, or blue-haired, atheist, commie scientists who believe there are 72 genders and that everyone should be psychotically germaphobic.
common> this is not about minhagim this is about common
But what can I do – my humbleness exceeds my courtesy. If I feel I am not at the level of Talmidei Chachamim and me dressing like that would be hutzpah and hillul Hashem, does it mean I am not allowed to daven with Talmidei Chachamim and with people who have no problem dressing like Talmidei Chachamim?
I was never told by a Talmid Chacham that I should leave davening because my presence or dress offends him. So, this settles the first item. From a kal vahomer, the second group should not object either.
And indeed why should my humbleness be offensive to someone anyway? I am not asking them to take their shtreimels off. Next, you’ll throw reb Zusya out of your shul.
DaMoahe: Davening with a minyan is not a chiyuv.
DaMoshe > common: Do you really not see a difference? There is no chiyuv to have liquor at a kiddush.
Really? Not in my Sh’A. Now I see that I have something common with common.
Neville > If someone were anti-hat, but also anti-mask, they would get a pass in my book, but I doubt that’s the case. For those who aren’t, they need to take a serious look at themselves and whom they are having respect for in the world: fellow frum Torah-observant yidden, or blue-haired, atheist, commie scientists who believe there are 72 genders and that everyone should be psychotically germaphobic.
This is crazy. Torah observant yidden wore multi-colored clothes, caps, and turbans centuries before someone decided that black hats are in.
And this is against the gemorah too – that advises not to impersonate Talmid Chacham and to close windows or flee during an epidemics.
AAQ: Please tell me your last post was a joke.
Neville, not sure which posts was last for you, but I let you treat all my posts as jokes.
I believe R’ Moshe wrote that davening with a minyan is a chiyuv d’Rabbanan. I’ll try to find the exact source.
The Mishna Berurah (90:28) says a man has an obligation to daven with a minyan.
DaMoshe > man has an obligation to daven with a minyan.
There are always limits. For example, R Soloveitchik paskened that one can not go into a Conservagogue to hear shofar even if there is no other option. So, one can see if a chasid (shoteh) thinks that black hat is meduoraita to daven without the minyan if the tenth person is wearing a baseball cap.
Rav Moshe in 90:28 says it’s permissible to daven b’yechidus at times.
Joe, where does R’ Moshe say that? As far as I know, there is not a ninth chelek of Igros Moshe on Orech Chaim.
In OC in the Igros. Besides 90:28 see also 1:15, 2:27, 3:7, 4:68 and 4:91. And Mishna Brura 90:28. Mishna Brurah 90:29 says you can miss minyan if you’ll lose money otherwise. The Emek Brocha (Birchos Kriyas Shema 1) suggests allowing the possibility of going on a vacation if that’ll mean missing minyan. Halichos Shlomo (ch. 5 note 25 pg 66) citing Tefillah Kehilchaso 8:23 and Ahavas Chesed ch. 1 says you can miss minyan if necessary to welcome guests. Halichos Shlomo 5:17 says if you normally daven vasikin you should do so even if you wont have a minyan then. Rama 90:18, Mishna Brurah 90:56, Piskei Teshuvot 90:23 talk about learning full time without stopping to go to minyan. The son of the Chafetz Chaim writes about his father that when writing the Mishna Brurah he would go ten hours at a time learning without eating or even stopping for mincha. Mishna Brurah 90:56 says if giving a shiur will result in no minyan then that is fine. Halichos Shlomo 5:16 says even if missing learning with your chavrusa it is better to miss minyan.
“Neville, not sure which posts was last for you, but I let you treat all my posts as jokes.”
The one with you bragging about how humble you are. I was clarifying that you were being ironic on purpose and not just extremely lacking in self awareness and/or the meaning of the word “humble.”
“Rav Moshe in 90:28 says it’s permissible to daven b’yechidus at times.”
What’s the chiddush? Would you have otherwise thought that if you miss minyan you just don’t daven at all? Of course davening b’yochid is an option.
Neville, I am surely self-aware. I know my IQ, SAT, GRE, and chess ELO and this keeps me from being too humble!
The serious part of my joke is the idea that I, and other erliche yidden over centuries, would not dare to dress like Talmidei Chachamim. Nowadays, suddenly people who have no self-awareness not only have no problem dressing up, they also consider it inappropriate and “untraditional” to dress otherwise.
> What’s the chiddush?
here are several interesting examples from R Auerbach –
not making minyan on an airplane not to inconvenience others
if doctors allow someone to leave home once a day – go to work, rather than shul
Tzahal soldiers on R’H should rather go around with a shofar than have a minyan (sounds Lubavitch 🙂All the examples given of when do daven b’yichidus are either as a b’dieved, or if someone is already engaged in a different mitzvah, or to avoid bothering others (such as on a plane.) You know what isn’t listed? When someone doesn’t have a hat and jacket…
DaMoshe,
So the answer is that since not having a hat and jacket is not a reason for not davening with a minyan, it would thus be incumbent upon the person to then put on a hat and jacket if the only place to daven requires it.
It is the responsibility of the the individual to go to a minyan. It does not seem to be the responsibility of the tzinur to make any and every accommodation to suit the whims of people who aren’t interested in following the minhagim of the tzibur.
“You know what isn’t listed? When someone doesn’t have a hat and jacket…”
Agreed, but this was UJM’s quote:“Rav Moshe in 90:28 says it’s permissible to daven b’yechidus at times.”
What would have been the hava amina? That nobody can ever daven b’yochid? I’m confused altogether by the quote.
nisht > whims of people who aren’t interested in following the minhagim of the tzibur.
what is a minhag? What if my minhag not to daven with black Jews, sephardim or hungarians, or people who wear gray socks – would you join my minyan or, I hope, stay away?
I frankly think this post was a prank, trying to see how many people will support the idea.
DaMoshe: Rav Chaim explicitly said to daven with a hat and jacket b’yechidus if you won’t have the hat and jacket at the minyan.
nisht > It does not seem to be the responsibility of the tzinur
and, of course, it is responsibility of the tzibur to provide Yidden with, in order (1) mikva, (2) school, (3) shul. And that means to all kosher Yidden. There are numerous stories about schools asking gedolim whether they are allowed to expel someone from school, and the answer is usually along the lines – sure, I’ll teach this kid myself. I don’t see why shuls, next on the priority list, are treated differently. Imagine, your neighbor has a chiyuv and you don’t let him say kaddish because he is wearing sandals.
Joe: R’ Zilberstein said that for a yeshiva bachur, who regularly wears a hat and jacket to davening, it’s better to daven b’yichidus wtih a hat and jacket. For someone who doesn’t wear a hat regularly, he doesn’t apply this. Perhaps R’ Chaim’s opinion is specifically for someone who regularly wears a hat? Then you also run into the question of, what if the person doesn’t have a hat available, and wouldn’t be able to daven b’yichidus with a hat either?
R’ Shlomo Zalman disagreed with R’ Chaim, and held that it’s better to daven with a minyan. When it comes to an issue like this, where one person’s davening has no effect on someone else’s, you have no right to impose the opinion you may follow on someone else, who also has a valid psak.
A shul has no right to ban someone just because they’re not wearing a hat and/or jacket.“A shul has no right to ban someone just because they’re not wearing a hat and/or jacket.“
Damoshe,
I remember signs in restaurants saying “no shirt no shoes no service” are you saying shuls are worse than restaurants?
addict, absolutely not. A restaurant is a business, and exists to make a profit. If the owner wants to have a specific clientele, and a certain atmosphere in the restaurant, he can do so. A person doesn’t have to eat in a restaurant – it’s a luxury, and a person can easily do without it.
When it comes to a shul, it exists to help the people, not its leadership. It is a place for people to daven. Stopping someone from davening with a minyan goes against what a shul stands for.DaMoshe said:
“R’ Zilberstein said that for a yeshiva bachur, who regularly wears a hat and jacket to davening,
it’s better to daven b’yichidus wtih a hat and jacket.”====================================
MY RESPONSE:
By what halachic logic is wearing “a hat and jacket” more important than praying with a minyan?
For many years, I suspected that Orthodox Jews place too much emphasis on external appearances,
especially Charedim, and this seems to confirm that suspicion.For someone who doesn’t wear a hat regularly, he doesn’t apply this.
Obviously, since what does he gain by davening b’yechidus if he anyhow doesn’t wear a hat and jacket!
A shul has no right to ban someone just because they’re not wearing a hat and/or jacket.
Of course they do. If you want to daven there, bring a hat and jacket and respect their rules.
“For many years, I suspected that Orthodox Jews place too much emphasis on external appearances,
especially Charedim, and this seems to confirm that suspicion.“There is a rule that חיצוניות מעורר הפנימיות just like you wouldn’t go to a king like a slob (or even with a tshirt and jeans) you shouldn’t go to Hashem like that
There is a modicum of respect, the whole argument is how much respect is needed
DaMoshe: Would you object to a Shul who didn’t permit someone to come in wearing a bathing suit and a bathing robe?
Coming in without a hat and jacket is also disrespectful.
This discussion shows how we lost the idea of a community focusing instead on personal minhagim. R Berel Wein says that if there are 100 Yidden in a town, Hashem wants to have 1 shul with 100 people. Yidden make 10 shuls with 10 people each and end up with 11 shuls 9 people each. The fact that this idea is foreign to a number of people here is very sad.
You lost track of what the discussion is about.
It’s a about a chassidishe minyan factory in Lakewood.
AAQ: You do realize that back in the old days that you’re romanticizing where there was one shul for 100 people, they had a concept of minhag hamakom and you would REALLY be stuck following that community’s policies. The only reason you even have the hava amina of disrespecting a shul’s policy openly is due to the schisms that you are claiming to decry.
“A restaurant is a business, and exists to make a profit.”
Everything is a business. The “non-profit” label is only relevant to tax purposes. For the purposes of this discussion, a shul is every much a private business as a restaurant is.“and, of course, it is responsibility of the tzibur to provide Yidden with, in order (1) mikva, (2) school, (3) shul.”
It is not a responsibility to provide a shul the policies of which are agreeable to everyone all the time as this would be impossible. If you make a sphard shul, you’ll disappoint the Ashkenazi-daveners, if you make a hat-shul, you’ll disappoint the never-hatters and vice versa. At your core, none you you truly have problems with a shul or any other institution having policies that some people will like and other won’t. The whole core of this discussion is that you aren’t used to being told “no” and you’re shocked that anyone in the world would do such a thing.If I were a member of this shul, I’m not sure I would actually support the policy, but it’s their right. Why are chareidim always the ones expected to bend over backwards to make everyone else feel comfortable? You don’t see us whining that MO shuls should refrain from saying Hallel on Zionist holidays so that we’ll feel comfortable davening there.
I was in court once and this guy showed up in a tank top, shorts a flipflops, the Judge said are we in a courtroom or a beach? I am putting you case on the bottom of the stack, go back and dress respectfully, same holds true with a shul, if they don’t want people to show up in shorts and flipflop they the right to say so, and if the likes of SR find it offensive too bad, find another shul to daven in.
I’ve frequented this “trailer shul” a number of times without a hat or jacket and have seen others doing the same. Despite all the signs, no one ever said anything or even looked at me askance.
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