- This topic has 115 replies, 22 voices, and was last updated 2 days, 10 hours ago by .
-
Posts
-
The following appeared on VIN news before being removed.
<< Picture of sign: We gladly welcome everyone to our shull, but its our Takanah to wear a hat and suit – whoever has a hard time with our Takanah should not come daven here] >>
(VINnews – Op-Ed) Tomorrow is Hoshanah Rabbah. It
marks a full year since October 7, and I still vividly
remember walking to Simchas Torah, the air thick with
uncertainty. We danced, but we danced with heavy
hearts, waiting for Shabbos to end so we could grasp the
full scope of the tragedy unfolding in Israel. How could we
celebrate when such pain was taking place? How could wemove forward, and what kind of world awaited us on the
other side of that moment?But beyond the shock and fear, the greatest outpouring
from October 7 was achdus—unity. I witnessed the
extraordinary power of Jews from every corner—different
communities, ideologies, and backgrounds—come
together as one. We became Kulanu Echad, one nation
with one heart. Jews who once stood divided now stood
united. We understood that Yached Ninatzeach—together,
we will prevail.
And yet, this morning, on Chol HaMoed, I had a stark
awakening. As I entered a local shul, my eyes were drawn
to a sign—a sign that was meant to exclude. “If you’re
not wearing a hat and jacket, you’re not welcome to
daven here.” It wasn’t just one sign, but dozens, each
one as clear as could be: there are rules for belonging,
rules that seem more important than the unity we
learned last year.
I found my mind drifting away from davening, lost in
thought. A year after October 7, do we still have these
signs? A year after we stood shoulder to shoulder as one
people, are we really being reminded that not everyone is welcome?Yes, every shul has its standards. But is this truly the
message we want to send to those who come to daven?
What if someone left their hat at home after a hard day’s
work, or simply didn’t feel up to wearing one? Does that
mean they don’t belong? What if someone comes without
a jacket—should they be turned away from entering a
place meant for speaking to Hashem?
How many people see a sign like this and, rather than
feeling welcomed to daven, choose not to daven at all?
Especially when this shul, one of the minyan factories in
Lakewood, is meant to be a place where countless Jews
come to connect with Hashem. It disturbs me on so many
levels.Yes, standards are important, and yes, a shul can make
requests. And yes, you can even set a dress code,
requesting that all who enter come dressed in a certain
way. But the moment you put up a sign that says, “don’t
daven here if you don’t meet these standards,” something
profound shifts. What was once a place of open
connection and spiritual refuge becomes a place of
exclusion. The shul, which should be a home for every
Jew, starts to feel like it has a gatekeeper at the door,
assessing who is worthy to speak to Hashem based on
outward appearances.Is this really the message of unity we want to send—
especially so close to the anniversary of October 7, a day
that shook us to our core but also reminded us of the true
meaning of achdus? A day that taught us we are Kulanu
Echad, one nation bound together by something far
deeper than what we wear or how we present ourselves?
On that day, differences melted away, and what mattered
was our shared identity, our collective soul. Now, we have
to ask ourselves: are we preserving that unity, or are we
putting up invisible walls in the very places meant to
bring us closer to each other and to Hashem?
When my wife saw the sign, she said, “Wow, such a shul
could never be part of the Beis Hamikdash.” She
referenced the idea that when Moshiach comes, all shuls
will connect and become part of the Beis Hamikdash. And
not because it’s not a shul—but because, how does such a
message find its place in a holy space? It feels
hypocritical—an oxymoron of sorts. We say, “We welcome
all,” but then we say, “If you don’t do x, y, z, don’t daven
here.” Another person told me, “I legit would never go
again to such a place.”
A local mother recently told me how her 13-year-old son
was appalled when he couldn’t daven with a minyan in
the same shul where he saw the sign because he was
wearing a t-shirt. He couldn’t understand it—why should
his shirt stop him from praying? She had to drive him over 20 minutes home to change so he could feel
welcome. Her older son refuses to live in Lakewood
altogether, saying, “People wear a hat just to get into
yeshivas, but it doesn’t mean anything in Yiddishkeit.” It
made her stop and think: are we losing sight of what
truly matters? Is a hat or a jacket more critical than a
Yid’s connection to Hashem?I don’t think the people who are davening there are
enforcing the sign. No one’s getting kicked out; it’s a
minyan factory. But at the same time, are we, as a
nation, okay with these signs hanging in our shuls? Is this
the message we want to resonate with us?
I understand the desire to maintain specific standards,
but we must ask ourselves—what kind of standards of
Ahavas Yisrael are we setting? As a Hasidic shul, I can’t
help but think of the Baal Shem Tov’s teachings. Are
these signs truly reflecting the stories of the Baal Shem
Tov? Would he ever turn a Jew away from davening
simply because they weren’t wearing a hat and jacket?
So, we must ask ourselves: Are we genuinely upholding
their legacy when we hang signs that turn away Jews who
may not fit a specific dress code? Or are we distancing
ourselves from the very principles of Ahavas Yisrael that
they held so dear?
It goes deeper than this. Does this sign hang only on the wall of the shul, or does it hang in our homes and hearts?Because what this sign says is, “I love all Jews, I accept
all Jews… but if you don’t look like me or dress like me,
maybe we can’t daven together.” I ask a year after
October 7: Have we torn down this sign in our hearts?
Have we reached a place to genuinely say, “I’m open to
accepting others”?
At the Arizal’s kever, the words Hareini mekabel alai
mitzvas asei shel v’ahavta l’rei’acha kamocha are
inscribed. “I accept upon myself the mitzvah to love a
fellow Jew as myself.” It’s one of my favorite lines. But so
many people say, v’ahavta l’rei’acha kamocha without
really looking deeper—without reading between the lines.
I’ve always felt that the real message is v’ahavta
l’rei’acha im lo kamocha—to love another person, even if
they’re not like you.
And this brings me to a story I heard from Rabbi Eliezer
Klain, a Chabad Rabbi on Campus in Haifa. Reim, a
soldier in the elite Maglan Combat Unit, wasn’t
particularly religious. He would occasionally put on tefillin
and even joined a JLI course, but that was the extent of
his involvement in Judaism. Then October 7 changed
everything for him.That day, Reim was in Tel Aviv when the reports of the
terrorist attacks started coming in. He felt helpless and
overwhelmed, so he rushed to his army base, unarmed and unprepared, just wanting to act. When his unit finally
received orders, they were deployed near Kibbutz Be’eri,
which had been devastated by the attacks.
Amid the destruction, they learned of a mother and her
two children hiding in a house. Reim and his comrades
knocked on the door, identifying themselves as IDF
soldiers there to rescue her. But the woman was too
afraid to open—terrorists had disguised themselves as
Israeli soldiers before. She didn’t trust anyone.
Reim was at a loss. Then he remembered something
deeply Jewish, something no terrorist could convincingly
say. He cried out from the depths of his heart, Shema
Yisrael, Hashem Elokeinu Hashem Echad! After a few
tense moments, the door opened, and Reim saw the
mother’s face. She was pale, still terrified, but the words
Shema Yisrael had broken through her fear. “You’re really
Jewish!” she said, and let them in.
That moment changed Reim’s life. He told Rabbi Klain,
“This woman was a secular kibbutznik, raised in an
environment without Judaism. She probably never said
Shema in her life, and yet those words connected us. It
showed me that being Jewish is something far deeper
than what we do outwardly. It’s part of who we are.”
Since then, Reim hasn’t missed a day of putting on tefillin
and saying Shema. He’s made it a part of his life, even in the chaos of war.This story gets to the heart of what I’m grappling with. If
someone like Reim, who wasn’t outwardly religious, could
connect so deeply to his Jewish identity in that moment,
what does that say about the barriers we sometimes
create? Barriers like signs in shuls that say someone isn’t
welcome because they don’t meet certain standards.
A year after October 7, we saw incredible unity. Labels,
backgrounds, appearances—they didn’t matter. What
mattered was our shared identity. So I ask again: have
we truly torn down the invisible signs in our hearts? Are
we still building walls where we should be building
bridges?Recognizing how much good has come out of such a dark
time is important. We’ve seen countless Jews change,
grow, and reconnect. We’ve seen people who had little to
no connection to their heritage find a deep sense of
belonging. The outpouring of kindness, the acts of unity,
and the strength of klal Yisrael have been nothing short of
miraculous. We cannot overlook the tremendous good
that has been done. Communities have come together,
hearts have opened, and the Jewish people have shown
the world that we are indeed Kulanu Echad.
And yet, we know there is still room to grow. As we stand
on the brink of another Simchas Torah, let’s take the next step forward.Start this Simchas Torah by dancing with
someone you never thought to dance with. Reach across
the boundaries of community, background, and
appearance. Dance for the 1,300 souls who aren’t here
with us today, whose lives were taken on October 7.
Dance in their memory, and dance for the future of Am
Yisrael.
Because the greatest simcha we can create is one that
unites us, that brings us together in true achdus. When
we stand hand in hand, without signs that divide us, we
can rebuild a world filled with love and light. Yached
Ninatzeach—together, we will prevail.Coming to Shul without a hat and jacket is like going to a fancy restaurant wearing a sleeveless T-shirt, shorts and sandals with no socks. (Actually, coming to Shul without a hat and jacket is worse.)
You wouldn’t complain about a dress code to come into a store or restaurant or the White House. Coming into the House of the King of King’s demands a high level of respect.
Just because society has gone to pot, with anyone or everyone thinking dressing down is okay, does not mean a Shul needs to get with the times and welcome you with your sandals, shorts and t-shirt. They appropriately demand you dress befitting meeting the King of King’s.
Do you think if you walked into a shul during the time of the tannaim in basketball shorts and an “I’m with Idiot ☞” T-shirt that is four sizes too small, they would just let you in without a problem? No, they would grab you by the neck and drag you out.
Joe, as usual, you are full of garbage.
A person can go daven without wearing a hat and jacket and still be respectful. In fact, much of the time when I’m in Lakewood on a weekday, I see beat-up hats, and jackets that look like they haven’t been cleaned in months. That’s completely disrespectful.
When I go to shul, I wear nice clothing. You’ll never see me there in jeans and a t-shirt, because I know that’s not respectful. Even if I know I have to do manual work around the house that day, I’ll wear a nice button-down shirt to shul, then change to a polo or t-shirt for the work. There’s nothing wrong with that.I have been attending a Shabbat minyan recently that is full of Dati Israeli expats who wear neither jackets, nor hats, not ties, much less suits. It is the insides that count, not the outsides.
Joe,
To play OP’s advocate
Who says a hat and jacket (something that was chashuve 100 years ago in America and Europe) is any better than a turban and robe, a sombrero or a kimono
Ujm,
I always appreciate the “Frummer” among us who show up wearing their stained “Davening jacket” with a torn pocket & missing button along with their “Shabbos hat” that became a “Weekday Davening hat” because it’s faded & been sat on too many times.
Certainly more fitting to talk to the King of Kings than a man wearing pressed beige khakis & a blue polo shirt.This would depend on where the shul is located and what is the nature of the shul. If it is an area that has other shuls , is not a minyan factory and was made for people who very much value a certain decorum during tefilah then it is their shul and they have the right to want a certain atmosphere during tefila. They are correct to say that if that is too difficult for someone then this is not the right shul for them. Begrudging them of that right is also not loving and accepting other Jews.
Without responding to everything the OP said, unlike the opinion of his wife, the Beis Hamikdash and even the Har HaBayis also had a dress code that they were VERY strict about. So if anything it would prove the opposite.
That said, I’m happy to see any Jew enter my shul. I even miss the days of when completely and obviously secular Jews would come to shul for Yizkor or to say Kaddish. Unless there is a policy against it please come to shul no matter how you are capable of dressing. I’ve davened in the frummest and most kanoish of places and seen people come in all forms of dress. No one ever says anything. Unless you are dressed offensive it’s safe to assume no one will.
why daven in shul where Yaakov Avinu would not be welcome.
“Joe,
To play OP’s advocate”
But, why? You already know there’s going to be a sizable army of MO posters defending davening in short-shorts and a tank-top, why do you need to play “devils advocate” with the one guy actually standing up for halachah?
As to your point, maybe those things would also be proper for davening, but we all know that isn’t what the OP or any of these other people are talking about.
CA: In Sephardic countries when it was the norm to come to Shul in a turban, indeed coming to Shul without a turban would be disrespectful and warrant being asked to leave until the turban is put on.
Every place has the right to make it won dress code, no one is forcing you to go there
better danven alone with a hat then daven at shul with no hat!!!!!!!!!!!
The shul has the right to enforce their standatds but usually for the sheliach tzibur.
“Certainly more fitting to talk to the King of Kings than a man wearing pressed beige khakis & a blue polo shirt.”
Yes, but unironically. Wearing dress clothes that are tattered due to use and you cannot afford better is still more of a sign of respect that wearing clothes that are not respectable under any circumstances.
One of the Frummest Jews I ever knew in my entire life, a man
whose heart is filled with Yirat Shamayim, a man whose mind
knows all of Shas and all of Shulchan Aruch, told me a few years ago
that the Frum Community “values form over substance”.In other words, the Frum Community prioritizes what people look like
on the outside, more so than what people are on the inside.The most crooked businessman would be admitted to that minyan, if only he wore a hat and jacket.
The most honest businessman would be thrown-out of that minyan, without a hat and jacket.
This does not surprise me, after 40+ years of dealing with Orthodox Jews.
There is a specific uniform that Orthodox Jews require,
and they equate that uniform with The Torah Itself.Failing to wear that specific uniform is misinterpreted as
a rejection of the entire Torah, and an attack against the entire Torah.CA: In Sephardic countries when it was the norm to come to Shul in a turban, indeed coming to Shul without a turban would be disrespectful and warrant being asked to leave until the turban is put on.
Let me rephrase that for you Joe
In America when it was the norm to greet a dignitary in a hat and jacket, indeed coming to shul without one is disrespectful and warrant being asked to leave until the the hat and jacket is put on. (But nowadays, since no one “wears a hat and jacket” to greet a dignitary)
> better danven alone with a hat then daven at shul with no hat!!!!!!!!!!!
with such halachik knowledge, you are not allowed to wear a hat.
Generally, one should not try to look like a Talmid Chacham if he is not (Bava Basra, even if it is not popular, it is still a gemora). BUT everyone should be davening with the tzibur – so how can they restrict non-T’Ch from davening!? And if they do such a restriction – why judge by a hat? Why not have a
random gemora questions on the screen and you can come in only if you answer those correctly.Sephardim serm to be inconsistent. They generally dress to match the host community. Thus turbans. Now they switched to black hats to match their new neighbors while those hats represent the opposite approach.
“In other words, the Frum Community prioritizes what people look like
on the outside, more so than what people are on the inside.”So, should we not care about tefillin, since those are on the outside? Tzitzis? Why care about covering out heads at all?
You guys realize there are probably hundreds of sforim on how Jewish women need to dress al pi halachah; it is shameful that today’s men can’t even be bothered to hold themselves to even the slightest standard even for the ~1 hour a day they spend davening with a minyan, much less all the time.
Dear Neville,
In Tanach, in Sefer Shmuel Aleph, chapter 16, verse 6,
the great Shmuel HaNavi mistakenly identified Eliav ben Yishai
as the next Melech Yisrael, because of his external appearance.In the next verse, verse 7, G*D said to Shmuel HaNavi:
“Pay no attention to his appearance or his stature,
for I have rejected him.
For not as man sees; man sees only what is visible,
but the G*D sees into the heart.”Since this is written in Tanach, all Jews must learn from this.
>with such halachik knowledge, you are not allowed to wear a hat!!!!!!
This is actually the opinion of R’ Chaim Kanievsky ZTL. So you should take off your hat for himNeville,
1) tefillin are in halacha, hats are not.
2) men wrote seforim about what they want women to wear. I’ll wait for women to write seforim what they want men to wear. For now, I am following Torah shebalpe from my wife and she paskens I should daven without a hat.“tefillin are in halacha, hats are not.”
Mishnah Berurah 91:5. The prevailing culture of frum yidden is still to wear and hat and jacket out of respect. The culture is not defined by goyim who have no moral standards.“men wrote seforim about what they want women to wear.”
For starters, there probably are some tznius books by women, but who cares if there aren’t? Men are the ones who write halachah sforim.“I’ll wait for women to write seforim what they want men to wear.”
Where is this made up inyan in dressing the way women want you to? If women like seeing you shirtless, it doesn’t mean you should daven that way.“For now, I am following Torah shebalpe from my wife and she paskens I should daven without a hat.”
Cute, but obviously not a serious point. You don’t have to listen to your wife when she’s telling you to be less observant, nor she you. If you “paskened” that you’d rather her wear pants and short sleeves, would that make it mutar? I’m not sure I actually want to know your answer…Square Root: Your post has nothing to do with anything, and even if it did, we don’t pasken directly from the Tanach.
“> better danven alone with a hat then daven at shul with no hat!!!!!!!!!!!
with such halachik knowledge, you are not allowed to wear a hat.”
My mashgiach zt”l said the same thing and I strive to fulfill it every time I daven
you probably meant Mishnah Berurah 91:12, 91:5 is about belts. Aruch Hashulchan, I think, rules differently.
> You don’t have to listen to your wife when she’s telling you to be less observant, nor she you.
Hear, here: _THIS_ is the root (square or not) of the problem. Thinking that putting an expensive black hollow cylinder on your head makes you more observant. Sherlock can eat his hat (I wore it once). This is a simple difference between what is appropriate to (symbolically) wear in front of a King in our days. If you think a black cylinder signifies that you are valuing the moment, I can easily beat it with an ancient siddur, a $400 davening tie and a golden watch. In reality, the underlying feeling is that being strange and different from “them” makes one more “observant”. This is a very understandable feeling and has a place, but it is not a universal key to unlock all mysteries of the world.
Aside: R Salanter had such a watch. He once was travelling and did not had tefillin with him. He asked people in some shul to borrow one (two), but nobody wanted to give it to an unknown traveler. Rather that revealing himself, he simply got his golden watch out and asked someone for the time so that he can set his watch correctly.
back to the topic – not just about preferred way to daven, but about excluding people who follow accepted halachik opinions different from your own on how to dress. Should we go back to machlokes between nusach ashkenaz and sfarad? Mishnaic examples list cases when we shush a shaliach tzibur – when he says something unacceptable, not just “different”.
VOSIZNEIZ> opinion of R’ Chaim Kanievsky ZTL. So you should take off your hat for him
I retract. This is usually where you are supposed to “eat your hat”. For that, one should have a hat, have it made from a kosher animal that was properly schechted. I fail on the first condition.
Unfortunately, Sheilas Rav seems to be pretty succinct with “asur”, so we can speculate on the reasoning. Could it reflect the social attitude of the charedi community in Israel standing up for their community? Do we have similar psakim in previous generation (his father, Chazon Ish) when charedim was just starting, and in previous generations. R Chaim Ozer?
Neville: I was thinking of answering him, as well, but I realized (as usual) it wasn’t worth the effort. Since you addressed his nonsensical comments, you could also point out that when he wrote “men wrote seforim about what they want women to wear” is that he must be under the impression that G-d is a man or that men are G-d, because the Gedolei Poskim who write the Shailos U’Teshuvos seforim on Halacha do not pasken “what they want women to wear” but rather the pasken what Hashem wants women to wear.
But something so obvious needn’t even be stated.
Neville actually got my point – the end line of this jokey thought is that, absent strict halachik guidelines, I am surely take into account opinions of important people in my life, starting with my wife. You should also ask your wives to vote.
There is a story about an Israeli Rov running a small yeshiva; he would travel to US for a month to collect funds. With time and children, his wife started complaining that she can not manage without him. The Rov did not want to close the yeshiva, so he asked a shaila. Posek asked him – what percentage of collection the Rav takes for his family. Nothing, of course – it all goes to the students. Posek suggested to charge what others charge – and the wife was now able to manage somehow … Maybe, apply same approach when you want to enhance your observance in terms of time, effort, and money spent, make sure it is done the way your household feels good about it.
Y’all saw the signs on the stores; “No shoes, no service.” Now we need our own signs saying “No hat, no quorum.”
AAQ: I was giving the seif in S”A. 12 I think is the seif katan in Mishnah Berurah. Sorry.
“Aruch Hashulchan, I think, rules differently.”
I highly doubt this, but I can’t prove it as it’s hard to prove a negative. If the Aruch Hashulchan specifically stated that there were no inyan of wearing a hat or jacket, the Modern Orthodoxy would probably print that quote on yellow flags and dance around the bimah chanting it in simchas Torah. On a serious note, if the MO position really had this strong of a support, they would say so right off the bat rather than making silly arguments like what you’ve been doing.“Maybe, apply same approach when you want to enhance your observance in terms of time, effort, and money spent, make sure it is done the way your household feels good about it.”
This isn’t a musar shmooze. If you were talking about wanting to dress properly for davening, but struggling with it, this would be a totally separate discussion. If you have too many other areas to focus on to worry about proper kavod for davening, fine, but why are you trying to get other people to be worse? Seems like an interiority complex.
“Should we go back to machlokes between nusach ashkenaz and sfarad? Mishnaic examples list cases when we shush a shaliach tzibur – when he says something unacceptable, not just “different”.”
I don’t think it’s a good analogy, but we can go with this if it will make you happy. The shul in discussion decided that this was a “shush the Shatz” case, most other shuls clearly don’t.
Look at SA O’CH at the end of Siman 91.
Neville, I don’t see any “silly” arguments. The fact is that the Mishna Berurah specified that respectful dress is based on the time and place, and it changes. He wrote that in his time and place, a hat is considered respectful. Given that in the US, wearing a hat is considered disrespectful in some cases (such as when in a courtroom, or when the National Anthem is played), I’d say that it may not apply anymore.
R’ Bender has said that a hat and jacket represent the uniform of a yeshiva bochur (or someone who considers themselves a member of that group/system, including adults.) He never once told me that it’s a requirement for davening – in fact, I’ve davened for the amud at some Darchei alumni events that were not held at the yeshiva, and did not wear a hat. I was not a chiyuv, but yet I was asked to lead the davening. R’ Bender had no issue with it.
I don’t consider myself a member of the yeshivish community, so wouldn’t it be dishonest to portray myself as such?Look at the Baer Hetev by benching Siman 183 sief 11 to wear a hat and jacket to say it beaima, with fear.
OC 91:6
off the bat, it says this is derech chachamim and talmideichem .. here, the argument seems to be circular or at least aspirational: let’s all wear black hats and voilà, we are T’Ch. Could it be that some people who come to shul are not T’Ch or at least are modest enough not to consider themselves as such?2nd, atufim – is this a hat or a turban? Or as Rava b’ R Huna in Shabbat 10 – socks ? I am all in for requiring socks in shul, by the way.
3rd, as DaMoshe mentions, everyone refers to the standard of the time of what is respectful clothing. We seem to have a machlokes here what is considered “standard of the time” – something that is respectable in the general society (not “average” rapper, but average professor or congressman, John Fetterman excluded) or should we go by the standards of the current Jewish community. Would you agree with this?
I have to note that referring to the Jewish community standard, this becomes “no true Scotsman” fashion. You simply declare that your community is the standard and, thus, everyone else is in violation of OC and are, thus, not proper community. Of course, at some point – probably 18th century, Yidden clearly adopted standard Polish dress and then (some) refused to change it. I personally think that wearing 18th century jacket was a reasonable idea when 19th century jacket represented haskala and there was a good reason to stand firm against it. I do not think, though, that we are still in the same boat, as we developed more sophisticated ways to deal with modernity. Reasonable people can disagree here, of course.
“let’s all wear black hats and voilà,”
I never said anything about black, and neither did the OP.“I am all in for requiring socks in shul, by the way.”
Okay… Me too.“everyone refers to the standard of the time of what is respectful clothing.”
I’ve not seen convincing evidence that this means we model ourselves after the goyim, as the Modern Orthodoxy likes to suggest. The minhag in the Torah world is still to daven in a hat and jacket. If that changes, you can say “times have changed,” but until then…“Would you agree with this?”
Yes, that is exactly the machlokes.“this becomes “no true Scotsman” fashion.”
As the great Papa Bar Abba once remarked in one of these CR discussions, all of religion is one big “no true Scotsman” shmooze. It’s redundant to pull that card.“You simply declare that your community is the standard and, thus, everyone else is in violation of OC”
Not so. Litvaks, Chassidim, Sphardim dress differently and don’t take issue with the different fashions (for men anyway). This isn’t about different standards, this is about having standards vs. not.“Of course, at some point – probably 18th century, Yidden clearly adopted standard Polish dress and then (some) refused to change it”
I don’t think this is “clear,” and I would, in fact, challenge the assertion that all Poles walked around looking like Chareidi Jews in the 1700’s.“as we developed more sophisticated ways to deal with modernity.”
Which is what? Surrendering to secularism and liberal academia? If anything, enlightenment mentality is worse now than it was during The Enlightenment. For the record, this last point is not about davening attire.Without discussing whether a hat or jacket is necessary in general, everyone seems to concede that the appropriate dress is defined by time and place. So why does this shul have to have their standards changed to meet your standards? The shul is making clear what the standards are in that shul. And being very clear about it. As such, since you are so focused on appropriate attire being the correct way to daven, you would have to agree that in this shul a hat and jacket is required attire for davening.
One other point, all those who are so worked up and say, why is a dress shirt and jacket and dark pants more appropriate, some “yeshivshe” are sloppy. Your khaki Dockers and pink polo shirt are better than the dress attire worn by yeshiveshe people. Why don’t we start with apples to apples and compare your suggested attire to a typical neatly dressed person in button down shirt, jacket and dress pants. Which do you think is a more formal, respectable look. How would you show up in a court, for instance. Or alternatively, again apples to apples if you are going to focus on the person who is not quite so neat, someone wearing a t-shirt with the logo of some vile heavy metal band, with baggy cargo shorts and flip flops to davening vs someone not in the freshest dress shirt and dark pants and jacket.
Neville> I’ve not seen convincing evidence that this means we model ourselves after the goyim,
We have photos of both sephardim and ashkenazim from 100+ years ago. Most of them dress like locals. I don’t know what the “modern” position is, but my personal is that we need to use not “average” goyishe dress, but top 1 to 10% – those who are eligible to see the King. Obviously, Polish peasants did not wear charedi dress, poritzim did. Of course, there were Jews who dressed like peasants, but it is not the standard for us.
> great Papa Bar Abba once remarked in one of these CR discussions, all of religion is one big “no true Scotsman” shmooze
Who am I to argue with the rishonim … I am not even an aharon … We just to define who the SCotsman are. I am defining them as Talmidei Chachamim who have a grasp of Torah, you seem to define them as those who follow exactly same derech. As, say, R Moshe, R Soloveichik, Lubaviche Rebbe were respectful of each other, I would include all of them – and those how any of them respected – into the circle.
>> “as we developed more sophisticated ways to deal with modernity.”
> Which is what? Surrendering to secularism and liberal academia?I think every reasonable response that we have now is more effective than what was there 200 years ago – whether it is lakewood yeshiva, bays yaakov, or chabad houses, or Ohr Sameach, or modern day schools. Note that there is no tension right now between science and Torah as ideology. In certain times, there was. Many rabonim objected to Mendelhson translation as it led to Jews learning hochdeutsche and that to mixed dancing. Anyone is objecting to Artscroll nowadays? I personally try teaching children that Torah is by Jews but yesh chochma b’goyim, and it is not a problem to learn chochma. And then train them to separate chochma from liberal and secular stuff by discussing every issue and defining what the Torah outlook on that issue is.
AAQ: European Jews never dressed like the local gentiles. (I’m not as familiar with Sephardic attire, but I believe the same can be said for them.) Not even like the upper-class goyim. The Jews *always* dressed differently, obviously excluding secularized Jews.
Joe, that’s just plain not true. Don’t make things up. As an example, look at pictures of R’ Shneur Kotler as a young man (there’s a famous one from when he was in the Chevron Yeshiva). His clothing was the same as was commonly worn by most people (non-Jews) during that period.
Students from the Mir Yeshiva, 1938
ttps://encyclopedia.yivo.org/media/963Iraqi Jews early 20th century
https://breakingmatzo.com/wp-content/uploads/Iraqi_Jews.jpg“Most of them dress like locals. I don’t know what the “modern” position is, but my personal is that we need to use not “average” goyishe dress, but top 1 to 10%”
I infer that we both agree that today’s “average goy” has extremely low standards of dress. You didn’t have to go to the top 1% back 100 years ago–or even 50 years ago–to find respectably dressed goyim. So, even within your shittah, we would be faced with the choices of either searching for the few that still kind of care and model ourselves after them, or just do our own thing. What I don’t understand is the outright opposition to doing our own thing–the insistence that we MUST base ourselves off the goyim in some capacity. Where does that come from?
“Note that there is no tension right now between science and Torah as ideology.”
Pfft, what?!“Many rabonim objected to Mendelhson translation as it led to Jews learning hochdeutsche and that to mixed dancing. Anyone is objecting to Artscroll nowadays?”
Artscroll is by frum yidden, not by the founder of Reform Judaism.“I think every reasonable response that we have now is more effective than what was there 200 years ago – whether it is lakewood yeshiva, bays yaakov, or chabad houses, or Ohr Sameach, or modern day schools.”
Several of these are kiruv organizations trying to undue the damage caused by embracing modernity. Lakewood yeshiva is modeled after yeshivos from 200 years ago. Modern day schools are a great example of a failing way of dealing with modernity.Dressing “differently” does not translate into marginalizing those who may come into a shul from a different hashkafah (or maybe no hashkafah). We should greet them with open arms and encourage them to return. I suspect, in most cases, they will quickly pick up on “minhag hamokom” with respect to the lvush of the mispallalim and conform without the need for exclusionary signage.
“Dressing “differently” does not translate into marginalizing those who may come into a shul from a different hashkafah (or maybe no hashkafah). We should greet them with open arms and encourage them to return. I suspect, in most cases, they will quickly pick up on “minhag hamokom” with respect to the lvush of the mispallalim and conform without the need for exclusionary signage.”
Surprisingly reasonable take. Did you stop being rabidly anti-Chareidi in the years that I wasn’t paying close attention to the CR?
Not sure why a story about shul’s policy about hat and jacket became a discussion about possible kulos to not wear them.
It’s their policy to insist mispallelim wear them. You don’t like it, go somewhere else or bring your hat and jacket.
For some context, it’s a chassidishe minyan factory in Lakewood, and probably 99% of the people who daven there to chap a minyan during the week wear hats and jackets on Shabbos. It’s not about excluding people with a different haskafah at all.
Neville > You didn’t have to go to the top 1% back 100 years ago–or even 50 years ago–to find respectably dressed goyim.
Well, sort of. This is along the lines of R Avigdor Miller that old books had more morals. I am not sure this applies to lower classes. Many were totally ignorant and drunk, depends on the country somewhat. They may have had bulkier dresses but they also had houses to raise children of unmarried low classes. Not sure whether this matters, we agree that the standard needs to be higher than “average”, proper to someone meeting a King. Surely, a peasant is not at that level in the old society, whether he wore a hat and socks or not.
Neville > What I don’t understand is the outright opposition to doing our own thing–the insistence that we MUST base ourselves off the goyim in some capacity. Where does that come from?
that’s a good question and an answer may depend on circumstances. When we are under pressure, we surely to resist in all matters. Dressing in togas while Roman army is occupying EY was probably frowned upon. When we are in a benevolent society, as multiple teshuvot talk in regards to voting, we are still concerned about assimilation, but we also have more opportunities to engage constructively with the world. As R Soloveichik is writing: if we hold that we are representatives of Hashem’s truth in the World – should we hiding in caves from the world, or should we try to engage with it. My clarification: when you learn about Tannaim interacting with Romans, you are not emulating them – they dealt with current (for them) events, and we learn it as history. We emulate them when we deal with current events.
> Artscroll is by frum yidden, not by the founder of Reform Judaism.
This seems to be a uniquely American slant on Mendehlson, both by O- and R-. He was not Reform, and I don’t think even his children and students were – they simply baptized, like multitudes of others who were not his students. He happened to live at the time when modernity was a new subject and he looked for a response. Others disagreed. Looking back – were his opponents right? I am not sure. We can, as well, “blame” mass conversions and apikorusus of that generation on the Rabbis of that generation who were not able to properly engage with the times. See threat on Chassidus as one possible response. I put blame in quotes, because those were extra-ordinary times and we are still looking for right responses.
> Lakewood yeshiva is modeled after yeshivos from 200 years ago.
You are falling for a marketing plot. Just because they are also called “yeshivos”, does not mean that hashkofos are the same, forget about the hats. I posted how students in Mir looked above.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.