- This topic has 36 replies, 18 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 7 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Its so nice to see page after page of advertisements in Jewish newspapers asking to refrain from giving alcohol to the boys that come to collect on purim! Mi Ke’amcha Yisrael?
There are more ads for wines and wine stores.
“There are more ads for wines and wine stores.”
Advertising scotch and bourbon of which there is no mitzvah to drink on purim according to any opinion.
Absolutely not true. It is well known that there were gedolim who drank whiskey for the mitzvah.
In fact, I have yet to see a compelling source that it needs to davka be wine.
Halachically Speaking brings sources both ways, but I didn’t look at all of them inside.
He brings Rashi who says ???????. ?????? ????, but that is not a strong diyuk to me. I’d need to see someone say straight out that ??? ??? doesn’t work to be convinced.
I personally use wine.
What exactly is the problem with having something to drink once in a while?
Do you really think that these ads will accomplish anything? If they want to drink and possibly endanger themselves, they’ll find a way, unfortunately.
“It is well known that there were gedolim who drank whiskey for the mitzvah.”
Could you name 1?
Also, I read the article you cited. I guess you wish to be machmir in this inyan and drink scotch or bourbon because there is a small minority opinion that one can be yotze the mitzva that way.
(this is not addressed to anyone in particular). The word “Livsumei, technically doesnt mean “get drunk” why does the gemara use that word instead of the more common “Lihishtaker”.
“Do you really think that these ads will accomplish anything? If they want to drink and possibly endanger themselves, they’ll find a way, unfortunately.”
That is probably true, but, there is no reason to enable it. Two years ago several rowdy bachurim were in my living room trying to take wine and were opening the breakfront looking for scotch. When I threatened to call their parents, they were out the front door like the proverbial bat, at least there is some deterrent.
Where do your bachurim come from, apushata?
I’ve never seen anything like that!
And I’ve had lots of bachurim in & out of the house on Purim.
You’re making me feel sorry. Because I always think I should call the Hanhala of their yeshivos afterwards to report how they behaved like gentlemen, and then I get busy cleaning up from Purim and getting ready for Pesach and the call is forgotten…
( I have to admit I’ve had some meshulachim who looked a little scary. But that’s a whole different story. I just added it because while we’re on the topic of staying safe on Purim, people need to be careful whom they let in to their homes.)
Apushutayid, Rashi believes that ?????? in fact does mean ??????. I recall the explanation that ?????? refers specifically to becoming intoxicated during a meal, but do not remember the source.
For one, Rav Elya Svei zt”l is known to have used whiskey, as well as to instruct his talmidim that they may do so as well, “oif mein pleitzos” (on [his] responsibility).
My Rav, a well known and highly respected posek, told me that without question, I may use whiskey as well.
If you look in the Mishnah Breura Dirshu, of the poskim they bring down its is basically split 50 – 50 whether or not you could be yotzai with whiskey. So there are definitely more then enough poskim to rely on to drink whatever you want.
I also recall seeing a teshuvas reb akiva eiger (though I cant recall where) that said that he doesn’t know where people got this misconception that you have to drink wine. The gemara just says chayiv inish levesumay, with no mention of wine. so that is another posek to rely on
I guess you wish to be machmir in this inyan and drink scotch or bourbon
Actually, as I posted, I drink wine. I just wish to be accurate.
“whether or not you could be yotzai with whiskey.”
Just because you could, doesnt mean you should. Whiskey does not mean you can not or are not yotsai if you drink wine.
As for Rav Elya Svei Z’l, I dont think any of his talmidim are the bachurim who are the subject of these ads. The current Rosh Yeshiva of Philadelphia is pretty clear where he stands on the matter of drinking on Purim.
Drinking on the whole is completely out of hand. It isn’t just for Purim anymore.
Drinking and getting drunk has become the norm at just about every simcha. I have personally seen boys as young as 13 hugging a toilet bowl while they vomit. Roshei Yeshiva need to come out and put their collective foot down and put a stop to it.
As far as Purim itself, I believe one in their own home at their own seuda should drink enough to get tipsy. They should not be giving any out to those that come into their home for whatever reason.
The insanity needs to stop!
There is a completely different angle that is rarely addressed in these discussions. Purim is a extremely precious Yom Tov for which the rejoicing and celebrating is an integral part of the mitzvah. However, it seems to be taken by many to fulfill a quite different role.
The observation that is repeated every year is that Purim is accepted as a single day when all restrictions and limitations are suspended. One is restricted from drinking and getting intoxicated all year. So, following this logic, Purim is a time to let go. Well, I’m afraid that this is antithetical to Purim. It is a time to be aware of the level of kedusha which we can attain during golus, when we can be mekabel Torah at a level that we could not achieve at Har Sinai. Every Yom Tov has a mitzvah to celebrate, but the celebration is secondary to the other aspects of the Yom Tov. Here, it is center stage. We even make our bodies celebrate. But it is NOT about frivolity, drunkenness, losing one’s ability to remain an oveid Hashem. The Poskim that talk about ad delo yoda being fulfilled with sleep, do not say that the sleep is the mitzvah. The mitzvah is drinking to the level of sleeping, the shiur of how much drinking constitutes the mitzvah. Boundaries exist on Purim, and turning it into the equivalent of seudas Achashveirosh is opposite of what Purim stands for.
Why is it any worse to drink on a Purim ad than anywhere else?
^^ because are many poskim that say it is a mitzvah to get drunk – it’s popular shiur topic. I’m sure we’ve all seen those pictures of Hasidim passed out drunk on the street after Purim. Obviously that’s a chillul hashem but there are still many who do so
The little I know:
Yasher Koach!
Thank you for that post.
Don’t get me hot!
Here I am, doing my thing about to drink on purim la la la, WHAT?! Tons of annoying ads that I shouldn’t drink?!
Oh no! Let me change my plans because of that.
Drink all you want, at your own dining room table, during the seuda.
I don’t get the complaint. Why should there be ‘drinking on purim’ ads?
Drinking and getting drunk has become the norm at just about every simcha.
You must be attending the wrong simchas. I can’t say that I’ve *never* seen someone drunk at a simcha, but it’s quite rare that I do see it.
The Wolf
What exactly is the problem with having something to drink once in a while
Nothing… if they can do it legally, safely and responsibly.
The Wolf
FWIW, I did not get drunk this Purim (and, in fact, I’ve never been drunk on any Purim or any other day of my life). If you think that makes me a sinner, so be it.
The Wolf
Feivel: There’s something wrong with this thread. You’re not allowed to have the same opinion as me 😛
I don’t get the complaint. Why should there be ‘drinking on purim’ ads?
Pirsumei nisa.
I observed enough example of frum drunkenness that it makes me wonder why, if this is unacceptable behavior, why did the rabbonim years ago not make a geder to prevent it? I cannot imagine that any rav would think that non-Jews observing drunken bochurim would explain that they are performing a mitzvah. I could not escape observing it and quite honestly, I did not feel they performing a mtizvah as much as a chillul Hashem.
Geder to prevent it? They made drinking a mitzvah!
If someone doesn’t perceive tefillin as a mitzvah, does that make it not a mitzvah?
DaasYachid: I don’t understand your analogy. Is it a mitzvah to get drunk, is that the definition of ad lo yadah. Seems like people go beyond the intent of the mitzvah, or have you found a source that the mitzvah means to get into a drunken obnoxious state?
There is a machlokes what level of drunkenness ad d’lo yoda bein arur Haman l’varuch Mordechai means.
One shittah holds that it means ad d’lo yoda bein arur Haman l’varuch Mordechai.
OK, let me put this another way: Is there a basis d’oraisa for getting drunk on Purim? Why would the rabbonim make it mitzvah to get drunk, and if that was no the intention, why not make a geder to prevent it as they have to prevent other behavior that may be halachically assur? I am having a hard time understanding why rabbonim would davka make getting drunk a mitzvah, given that it easily can be overdone and get out of hand.
Your question is no different than the previous way you asked it. It is, of course, d’rabbanan, but we keep d’rabbanans. As far as the fact that some may abuse it,
?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ??
Doesn’t explain why the rabbonim would make a mitzvah out of something that could turn in to something unintended. Or did the rabbonim want people to get plastered on Purim?
Or did the rabbonim want people to get plastered on Purim?
I thought I answered that.
See Tur, Shulchan Aruch, and nosei keilim for details.
OK, I’m dense. How did yo answer it. Referring to me sources is not an answer
You asked if “the rabbonim” wanted people to get “plastered”. The answer is that yes, according to pashut p’shat, which is held of by some mainstream shittos, Chazal (the Gemara) want us to get extremely drunk.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.