No apology yet from Bennet on Uman Libel

A friend of mine who did the Uman hajj said that the Ukrainian officials weren’t even bothering with most tests, just sticking a clean swab into the testing kit.

Yserbius; would you refer to aliyah leregel in such a pejorative as well? Chazal discuss both davening by kevarim and pilgrimage to one’s rebbe; I am not anywhere near breslov, but I find that offensive.

@AvirahDeArah I get that going to Ukraine is important for a lot of people. But chas v’shalom to compare it to a mitzvah d’Oraysoh like being Oleh Regel (l’havdil)?

Why would it be “chas v’shalom”? There’s nothing wrong likening one mitzvah to another mitzvah.

hajj is same shoresh as Hebrew hag. So, an appropriate word. Also, notice that Hag usually means traveling to EY, while both Hajj and Umanjj call for people to travel from EY to a foreign place. There are also theological parallels that are probably not appropriate for this site.

It seems that everyone agrees that last year was full of aveiros like a Ukrainian Rimon – breaking the laws in multiple countries, infecting people, creating Hillul Hashem. This year hopefully went better and healthier, but I wonder whether one may associate oneself with an event that acquired such great reputation.

@Milhouse Going to the Rebbe is a minhag, I’m sure it’s been compared to being Oleh Regel, but it’s a poor comparison. You’re going to a Rebbe to be inspired by his Torah, Teffilos, and Emunah. Not to bring Korbonos on his Mizbei’ach. But that’s about going to a Rebbe. There’s no Rebbe in Ukraine that people go to in Elul, just the kever of one.

Yserbius; i have to admit that i should have been clearer; it’s obviously not in the same category as aliyah leregel, but it shouldn’t be mocked and compared to other religions’ activities. AAQ – i think it’s clear that if we give something an arabic moniker, even if the term is grammatically acceptable, muslim/arab culture has become associated with “the enemy” in our community, as well as being associated with extremism…. Think of all the castigation of people who want to be mesaken olam bemalchus shakai as “Taliban”. So when called a Hajj, it seems demeaning.

Re rav Ovadia; that’s true, and he’s not alone. However the particulars about who should and shouldn’t go are not what we’re discussing now, so i don’t see what’s relevant.

People getting inspired by the uman experience is a lot greater than history books vs learning.. If were making comparisons to things that have inherent value vs things that are heichi timtzos, i think a better comparison would be learning mussar vs learning gemara. The mussar is a heichi timtzah to have good middos and yiras shomayim, but isn’t a mitzvah in its own study.

Re chimilnicki; i agree that it’s a shame that they’re profiting from all the tourism, but if that’s the only way for these yidden to achieve what they gain from going to uman… It’s the same reason the gedolim allow living in eretz yisroel even though there is an element of giving a small chizuk to the state; it’s happening derech agav and isn’t your kavanah, and is not as important as what we gain spiritually from living there (if that’s where you belong)

AAQ – it’s not me necessarily who sees muslims as enemies, but rather the vast majority of our community, so much so that associating something with islam/arab culture would be automatically a pejorative – i wasn’t saying whether or not this is proper or not, nor do i have a clear opinion on the matter. On the one hand, I’ve looked at the arab/muslim community with an open mind, not wanting to listen blindly to the zionists who consider them all our enemies. However at every turn I’m confronted with evidence that points to extremely high levels of anti semtism, largely due to zionism, endemic in the Muslim and particularly the Arab world. Not every single one hates us, but studies show that a very large percentage does, in Europe and the middle east at least. The amount of mainstream Muslim organizations that are found to have funded terrorist ones, politicians who espouse anti semitic views, and media which perpetuate anti semitic libels….i don’t believe that the zionists are completely lying in this issue. Just based on what my fellow talmidim in brisk encountered when mistakenly entering an Arab village is enough to make me want to avoid it as well; i don’t see why these sentiments are hateful or buying into the zionist narrative that they alone can protect us from our enemies. They lit the fire, threw us in it, and are now saying that we only can be saved by them.

I definitely don’t think that they’re irredeemable like the zionists say that they are; they grow up on lies about Jews, and i believe that educating them and the rest of the world that zionists do not represent all Jews will solve a great deal of the problems.

The fact that they are monotheistic would have been relevant 140 years ago before zionism came and spurred the arab countries to expel sefardi Jews etc, but now my point is that regardless of their religion, they are not something most jews would find flattering to be compared to, whether or not those feelings are justified is unclear to me entirely, but also not relevant either.

Re, Rav Ovadia; he addressed married men very clearly – those who leave their families are acting irresponsibly and without menthlickeit (he didn’t use that word, i forget his exact language); he didn’t mention bochurim at all…as for the misbehavior of some attendees; I’ve never been there, so I don’t know, but it seems to me that if someone wanted to sin, tel aviv is a while lot closer than uman.

I’ll admit i am not knowledgeable in Ukrainian politics, or even the exact details of tach vetat that you mentioned ( i.em chimilnicki’s political views); i just know that he killed hundreds of thousands of jews in his hatred and that he is still venerated by poles and Ukrainians as a national hero. I think what you said about Ukraine being a very different country than it was pre-war is very relevant; perhaps a wholesale boycott would be fruitless, as would abstaining from visiting uman due to an indirect boost to their economy. In my family, the Germans are collectively, not individually irredeemable and we would not drive Germans cars etc even if they paid us to; lots of European Jews feel the same way, as Germany is still Germany

@shalom-al-israel

What is “the h thing”?