Nittel

Sam2, next you’ll be complaining about Tisha B’ov and Yom Kippur. The whole point is that you don’t want to be bringing down a neshomoh when ???? ????

Me? What am I doing on Nittel Nacht? Just like me ole granny and hers before her: I’m staying home and ripping toilet paper all night!

Wolf: That depends whether you hold of the Orthodox kratsmich or the Catholic kratsmich.

I’m staying home and ripping toilet paper all night!

Today’s Daf Yomi {Shabbos 83} discussed various issues relating to utilizing stones to wipe oneself in bathroom. Can I fulfill my obligation to tear toilet on this nite by attending today’s Daf Yomi?

HaLeiVi: Absolutely. Choosing not to go to a Mikvah because you have a Minhag is one thing. Closing the MIkvah is something else entirely.

There are a few reasons brought down for nittel nacht.

The Korban Netanel says it’s a form of aveilus.

The Chasam Sofer rejects the opinion of aveilus, and say if that were the case, we’d be allowed to learn hilchos aveilus. It also would last the entire night, not just the first half. Instead, he says that the Christians would go to church at midnight for services. If they were running to pray and the Jews were sleeping, it would look bad for Jews. However, if the Jews got up at midnight, it would look like they were copying the Christians. So they instituted a rule not to learn the first half, but to stay awake doing other things. At midnight, they would begin learning.

The Sefer Kedushat Tziyon says it’s to teach us a lesson. Jesus was a student of R’ Yehoshua ben Perachya. Before he turned bad, he was an accomplished and learned talmud chacham. He’s an example of the mishna in Avos, that says Torah learning, while important, is not the primary goal – actions are (living the Torah, not just learning it.) Therefore, on this night, we suspend learning to practice the actions.

In any case, most of these reasons don’t apply anymore. Only the last reason does, and playing cards or chess is certainly not the actions that the mishna in Avos refers to.

The Chazon Ish criticized those who held of nittel, and made sure to learn extra that night. The Steipler learned as well, and even told others not to let him know when nittel was, so he wouldn’t be distracted from his learning.

Ender — What you wrote is mainly true. But my humble understanding is that the Pagan Holiday was December 21st or 22nd, the day of the Winter Solstice.

I heard from some shiurim that the early founders of that faith decided to synchronize the date with our Chanukah (25th of Kislev) since they understood the miraculous nature of 25 (for us).

Notice that December 25 through January 1 (inclusive) is 8 days long. Perhaps that the initial reasoning why the compiler(s) of the present civil calendar made sure December has 31 days.

Which histrocial time period Yushka Pundrik lived in, is not know with certainty by anyone (despite any claims otherwise.) The early Christians fabricated a large portion of their history, especially of their leaders. And during Yushke’s lifetime, he was no one especially notable. Just one of a bunch of tiny cult leaders that were pervasive at that time.

The Ramban in his Vikuach says that the one in the Gemara is indeed him, and he lived 200 years earlier than they claim. The Raavad in his Seder Hakabala brings both sides and seems to side with the view that it is him.

Tosafos famously says that it can’t be him because Papus Ben Yehuda was in the time of Rebbe Akiva.

You have to take this Shita with a grain of salt, since they might have been saying this to save their skin.

I found it interesting that the sugya of tumas avodah zarah was learned as the daf yomi on nittel nacht(and the following day).As many of you may know, it is a particularly difficult two blatt and it was wonderful to have 2 days off to prepare it properly. And I was pleased that everyone came to the shiur.( i know its not actually avodah zorah, but neverthelesss….)

Please check this out, because some people at work told me that they are taking off January 8th, for Greek/Russian Orthodox xmas.

What I don’t understand is: ??? ???? – Why does it start from Nacht of Christmas Eve? If it goes by the Jewish date, it should be nothing to do the 25th of December. If it goes by the Gregorian calendar, then it should be from 00:00 on the 25th, not from nightfall the night before?

From a simple etymological perspective, nittel comes from the word “natalis”, which means “birth of” in Latin. But its not what you think. The date in late December was celebrated by sun worshippers (of whom there were many, all over the Mediterranean basin, 1900 years ago) as natalis invictus, the birth of the invincible sun, as that was the day the days began to get noticeably longer. Mithraism was more popular than christianity for a long time in the Roman empire, and they celebrated this particular day. Most scholars of early christianity will accede that if jesus was a historical figure, December 25 was not his birthday, and was adapted as such, like many pagan holidays (Samhain, Eoastre, etc.) to make the “new” religion more palatable to European and Levantine pagans.

Yekke2, your question about starting the night before at nightfall has been addressed. Not by any Shu”t I’m familiar with, but by an old badchan routine. Perhaps you haven’t attended many chassidish weddings’ mitzvah tantz this time of year?

Q. Farvooss on nittel, a goyishe choggeh (as in chag) do we begin the night before, and Peerrim, a Yom Tov bei Yidden, we celebrate the night after (the seuda usually goes on through the night of 15 Adar) ??

A. Veill nittel halt men nuch a Yid- (we celebrate after a Jew), and Purim we celebrate after a goy- (we’re celebrating the hanging of Haman) !!

A reason I heard when I was younger (I do not have a mekor, so don’t bother asking for one) was that the minhag came about due to the chiefly Catholic practise of midnight Mass (a Christian prayer). Seeing as the Christians would get up at midnight to pray, it would create a kitrug against the Yidden for not going to the same lengths. Therefore, it was deemed better not to learn at all and not create an unflattering comparison.

If you accept this reason, then it makes sense to say that if you learn at all, you should learn the whole night. And that’s exactly what I intended to do, right up until the point I had to call the police after a fat man in a red suit broke my electric fireplace.

i heard that some people ‘keep’ (r”l) nitul on the 25th, some on the 6th, some from the 25th to the 6th…. i keep it from the the 6th to the 25th

I saw an ad somewhere recently for a sefer that would address

the gap between Jewish and secular history, because apparently

there’s more than a century of missing time to account for. Maybe

that has something to do with the Yoshke issue mentioned 2 years ago…

Wow the Shidduchim topic sure is hot right now but I’d still appreciate it if someone can chime in here…

Sorry Halevi, in case you’re serious. I wasn’t trying to be vague, and I did manage to get the gist of my post through this year.

All I’m asking is whether anybody knows of Mikvaos closed Nittel night – let alone 4 nights as Sam implied earlier in this thread. No need to explore the “banned” part of my post.

Once that’s settled we can continue talking about Shidduchim – and affording to be married – which is the topic weighing so heavily on our collective minds.

If Talmud Torah Kneged Kulam, it is astonishing that it would be banned for any other reason other than saraconos nefashos which would have been a problem in Europe. Having said that Minhagei Yisroel Kedoshim Haim, and a rav would need to be consulted today. I don’t see any quoted here. The gemara gives the name without a vav. Commentaries do suggest many gemara citations of the same name, so it’s not clear who it is, at all, by any stretch in the gemara stories.

Mammele: I believe look in the Nitei Gavriel on Nittel.

I also think there was also an article about it on Kikar last year.

DY: You’re right. I had forgotten. He was the source brought against the article on Kikar. But there was an article about which Chassidish groups in Meah Shearim (I think) close the Mikvaos and when, and it mentioned that some were closed all 4 nights so as not to upset nearby people with the different Minhagim.

So what do we wish each other, have a meaningful Nittel?

Anyone else donning sackcloth?

In case anyone didn’t notice the date,

the Nittel thread is back up.

Ahhh…

The wonders and benefits of the coffee room are numerous.