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There is a new trend Not to send kids to Mesivtahs that have English. It has become rampid here in Lakewood.
Ummm…
Rampid?
1: It isnt so new.
2: Ummm…
Rampid?
Well, they dont send the kids to english. What did you expect?
@Meno. I was a school melava malka once, where a speaker mentioned a conversation he had with a bachur home for bein hazmanim, In response to the question “how do you like the yeshiva”, the bachur replied, “Its great, i love it”, when asked, one of the things he liked abouit his yeshiva was that “english is optionary”. when english is optionary things become rampid.
How rampid?
This is nothing new whatsoever. This has been happening for at least 30+ years in Lakewood.
More bochorim are now in such mesivtas? Population growth.
The trend is not new. If anything its only in recent years that some have sent to English. And is there is a trend, it is one that the poster is obviously a proud product of….. (Title and content)
Are you talking elementary grades level? High schools?
“when english is optionary things become rampid.”
One of the best posts in a long time!!Health
“This is what happens when you spell words the way they sound.”
you pronounce rampant as rampid?
why not just say you made a mistake it was a typo or something., why dig your hole deeper by using your mispronunciation as a defense for misspelling ?
Does it matter if you aren’t going to a private college? Education is a joke, these days.
Rampid is a new word. Don’t be mean to new words.
Before we jump all over him, let’s consider the highly educated who say ” eKcetra” for etc… et cetera, and “pundiNt” for pundit.
Rampid. I learnt that word by (sic) the chavrusa tumult. While kids were making tumblesauces.
It’s not a new trend. Lakewood mesivtas that aren’t the Cheder only started popping up in the last 15 years or so. The first ones to start emulated the Cheder and followed vague apocryphal out-of-context sayings of Rav Aharon Kotler ZT”L so they didn’t have English. Every subsequent mesivta to open up was too afraid of being “der modernische platz” that no one would dare send their kids to, so they didn’t open English departments either.
Everyone wants their son to be a gadol in limud and sit in klei kodesh for life. But if you understand that the world isn’t perfect and your child may need to actually have a parnossa for himself, and still not be ostracized from the community, you’ve got to send to an out of L’Wood mesivta, like Brooklyn, Cleveland, or Philly.
Perhaps studying English or even speaking the language is unnecessary. At least one percent of these people will make it big in real estate and will then announce that formal education is a waste of time. The other 99% will suffer in their illiterate and ignorant silence, too proud to admit they listened to fools, but still unable to pay the rent.
@Health Lakewoord Cheder, obviously, or whatever the official name of their Mesivta is called. I don’t know any other Lakewood Mesivta older than 15 years that goes by that name.
I want my kids to have a good secular education. On the other hand, many gedoilim were against any secular studies whatsoever. The malach, Rav Levine zt”l, left Lubavitch after catching the Riyatz with a secular book. His followers in Torah Vodaas refused to go to secular studies and were expelled in 1935. There’s a reason they don’t have them in the chadorim and yeshivos ketanos in Eretz Yisroel.
I hear both tzedadim.
Rav Chaim Segal ZT’L, the Menahel of the High School at Yeshiva Chaim Berlin was once told by Rav Shach ZT’L that if possible, he should not be teaching English studies. In Eretz Yisroel, almost all Chareidi Yeshivos do not have English at that age. Rav Aharon Kotler ZT’L made some kind of commitment not to allow English studies on the HS level in Lakewood. The exact details, and if this was actually a Takanah or merely a preference, is not clear and depends who you ask. In any case, Rabbi Elya Svei, Rosh Yeshiva of Philadelphia and a student of Rav Aharon’s, was asked why he allows English in Philly if Rav Aharon was against it. What difference can there be between the town of Lakewood NJ and Philadelphia PA? Reb Elya answered that he has no choice, and that currently, the Baalei Batim would not send their kids to the Yeshiva except under these circumstances.
Is any of this the ideal? No. It is not. Is it justified? The schools say it is, as they have no choice. But the point is not what the Jews do, its what Judaism wants. Everyone agrees that it would be a higher level, a preferable situation if we would indeed not learn English even at the HS level, at least not beyond what is necessary to survive. Nobody claims it is an ideal.
The Rama 246:4 rules explicitly that it is absolutely prohibited according to Halachah to engage in a curriculum of secular studies. To read secular studies now and then, is permitted, he says. The source of the Rama is the Yerushalmi Sanhedrin.
It has been suggested the difference between a curriculum and just a glance, is that this prohibition is not due to Bitul Torah but rather a Bizayon HaTorah, by establishing studies in areas other than Torah, it shows that you believe they have some value that would justify learning them when you could have been learning Torah.
Rav Shimon Schwab ZT’L sought the Torah opinions of two great authorities, Rav Boruch Ber Liebowitz ZT’L and Rav Elchonon Wasserman ZT’L, regarding college education. Their responses were as follows:
Conclusion of Birkas Shmuel (Kiddushin #27 p.42): Universities and gymnasiums (i.e. secondary schools) are prohibited because of Apikursus [that they teach]… To learn secular studies on a regular basis is prohibited, as per the Rama 246:4 …
Kovetz Shiurim II:47: If you must learn books that contain apikursus, it is prohibited … needless to say even to make money or to prevent a loss thereof… If you learn secular studies in order to know a skill to make a living, it is permitted, and it is a Mitzvah. However, this is only in general. But if a person sees that his son wants to learn Torah and he is prepared to be a Gadol B’Torah, in such a case R. Nehuray said: “I will forgo all skills in the world and teach my son only Torah.”…
Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT’L also denounced college in a Teshuva, and in a famous speech delivered to his students, published under the title “The Counsel of the Wicked” (Vaad LeHaromas Keren HaTorah, New York, 1978). There is a tape available in many Seforim stores called “The prohibition to learn in Colleges” (Yiddish), which contains addresses by Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT’L and Rav Aharon Kotler ZT’L condemning college.
Regarding High School, the only reasons it is allowed is either because education is mandated by State Law (in New York it is until age 17), or simply because if they did not have High School education in the Yeshivas, parents would simply send their kids to worse places to get it.
HaRav Aharon Leib Shteinman said ( six years ago) to shun secular education. He concluded his remarks, commenting: “What is education today? Education is Torah! And more Torah! Whoever seeks happiness should teach his son Torah.”
I’m sure Rav Hirsch learned the Rama. He learned secular studies.
This thread is about high schools and possibly the upper grades in lakewood elementary schools.
Fellas, please don’t respond to @Joseph. As CR veterans know, he’s just a troll who states the most oiber-krum fake “Yeshivish” shittos to get a rise out of everyone and start an argument.
I hate to defend Joseph but he’s probably correct on these quotes. We have accepted secular studies so we don’t think about them but it’s not so pashut.
According to Marc Shapiro’s book on the Seridei Eish, even in Europe there was a stratification between the educated and the uneducated. the shuls were stratified based on skill level , which is why you find things like the tailors’ shul or the wagon drivers’ shul. But even in Europe they insisted on no secular studies, even though it meant poverty.Health, I am not Joseph. The mods can back me up on this. I went to college, and want my kids to get a good secular education as well. I’m just being intellectually honest though. There is a reason why the litvish chadorim in Eretz Yisroel don’t have secular studies. Again, just read Marc Shapiro’s book, don’t rely on me.
You can also find similar quotes throughout the new thick biography of Reb Baruch Ber zt”l.The #1 rule of debating is to understand your opponent’s viewpoint so you can refute it.
Many yeshivas today clearly have secular studies tzu yoitzei zayn, where they are only doing it mitaam hagezeira but clearly don’t feel it’s important. This is just another step in that direction.
I disagree, but I understand their viewpoint. The kids will suffer but they suffered in Europe too and the gedoilim still felt it important.I believe the Lubavitch yeshiva Oholei Torah is run like this as well.
I have no problem, as long as the graduates refrain from applying for welfare benefits because they’re unqualified for anything but low paying teaching positions
“Regarding High School, the only reasons it is allowed is either because education is mandated by State Law (in New York it is until age 17), or simply because if they did not have High School education in the Yeshivas, parents would simply send their kids to worse places to get it.”
Joseph,
More fake halacha from you and your aliases. About ten years ago at the Torah Umesorah convention, Harav Avraham Chaim Levin, zt”l spoke proudly about the secular High School education in his yeshiva. That as a matter of principle it has always been mandatory and that his alumni can match those of any Yeshiva in Torah and Yiras Shamayim, because of it and not in spite of it. He then mentioned his grandson-in-law, who excelled in secular High School studies and made a siyum on Shas before his wedding.
Kinderlach, If I “only” related to you the well know discussions on this issue by Rav Chaim Segal and Rav Shach or Rav Aharon and Rav Svei, I could understand you’d be upset that your deeply felt boich feelings insisting on teaching goyishe subjects to yiddishe kinder would be disturbed. But moreso I provided you additional actual maare mekomos from the Rama, Rav Shimon Schwab, Rav Boruch Ber and Rav Elchonon. For that you have no retort. But farshtaitzich that it still tut zich vai. And when I also mentioned what Rav Aharon Leib said six years ago (which was reported at the time on this site and can still be found with a search of the main page here), you felt utterly incompetent to argue against these great leaders of Klal Yisroel from past and present.
I suppose that why y’all ignored Yseribus’ instructions to you.
And AJ, you have the right to hope they decline accepting entitlement benefits. But they have the right to disregard your hope. Unless you want to fight the NAACP and get your local state legislature to repeal or limit them.
Secular studies don’t exist in eretz yisroel in the yeshivas, and they strongly resist it. Why?
“I have no problem, as long as the graduates refrain from applying for welfare benefits because they’re unqualified for anything but low paying teaching positions”
Anon,
Who says they are qualified to teach? There is another profession open to them; it’s a safe bet that very few of the able-bodied men who beg for tzedaka in shul have High School diplomas.
when one who had no secular studies cannot find employment in the society we now live in, then…..
rabbi Schwab choice of the two he asked, guaranteed the answer he received. when he declared that view in his hometown of Frankfurt, it was not well received by Rabbi Breuer who instructed a later famous individual to write a pointed response.
Joseph, you realize that this type learning never existed in the alter heim. There was no Medicaid,SNAP etc in pre war Europe and the Jews were too poor support every brochur , no matter their abilities, who wanted to sit and learn. Only the top students continued on to full time yeshiva learning and even they required fulltime fundraising. Every one else had to work in order to eat.
Ssshhhh… not so loud, the NYS Dept. of Education might hear.
DrYidd: Rav Schwab was appointed to assume the leadership of Rav Breuer’s community after his petira. Rav Schwab must’ve known a thing or two correctly to have been the appointed successor chosen by Rav Breuer’s.
Breuer’s was one of the yeshivos that bochurim attended while going to college during the tenure of R. Schwab, zt”l,and a number of his grandchildren graduated from college.
who cares if the yeshiva bachorim dont learn english as long as they have good middos
“who cares if the yeshiva bachorim dont learn english as long as they have good middos”
Cholent,
Nobody cares, until they grow up and have to support themselves by begging in shul or can’t resist opening their mouths when a microphone is put in front of it, like these fine examples:
ANOTHER GENIUS: Watch This Williamsburg Anti-Vaxxer “Community Activist” Give Media Interview
Just to throw a wrench into the mechanism, I propose we revisit the definition of “secular studies”. Is mathematics secular? There are many examples in Torah where math is used heavily, with notable notes from Baalei Tosafos that discuss geometry, and gematria that uses exponents and higher math functions. Learning the language of the land was done throughout the generations, and one may refer to the Oruch, and countless situations in which Rashi, both in Chumash and Shas uses contemporary language referring to it a “b’laaz”.
Can we examine the definition before volleying the opinions here?
Joseph quoted R’ Elchonon Wasserman HY”D: “Kovetz Shiurim II:47: If you must learn books that contain apikursus, it is prohibited … needless to say even to make money or to prevent a loss thereof… If you learn secular studies in order to know a skill to make a living, it is permitted, and it is a Mitzvah. However, this is only in general. But if a person sees that his son wants to learn Torah and he is prepared to be a Gadol B’Torah, in such a case R. Nehuray said: “I will forgo all skills in the world and teach my son only Torah.”
R’ Nehora’i was referring specifically to his son. He was not prescribing this for everyone. This Tanna knew that his son has the capability and the passion to become a scholar, and he stated that he would guide him that way. Not needing our endorsement, that is completely rational, and is not only good for him but for the Klal, as well. What about the father who knows that his son lacks that capability or passion or both? Should he push him to remain in learning? This quote from Reb Elchonon suggests that not.
The dilemma that is faced in threads such as this is the confusion of what is appropriate for an individual and what should be cast as the community standard. And we will never get the massive percentages of full time, career learners that the yeshivos try to boast. Should we push English studies or should we ban them? That’s a community question, not what a specific individual needs.
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