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YU in introducing a halachickly approved LGBTQ+ club with a הסכמה from HaRav Herschel Schechter שליט”א.
This is excellent news. People with these urges have an extremely difficult path ahead of them in life, and they do need support in order to stay frum.
This club, under the guidance of the Roshei Yeshiva, can provide that help, and try to ensure that these boys stay shomer Torah u’mitzvos.Source?
Kedaas Moshe veyisrael!
True
But since the press release makes it sound like a kiruv club, I find it hard to fault them
Besides
Another plus, it seems to have irritated the LGBT crowd. That alone tells me it must not be what they are looking for
I would like to think this is the roshei yeshiva trolling the LG’sYm, do you think high school kids whose mother’s milk is teenage television/movies and who have girlfriends in high school *suddenly* get an interest in something that their own world dismisses as prudish?
Let’s be real. They don’t try to hide it. They walk with their sin partners holding hands in the street in Flatbush.
Ym
I am disturbed by the optics
Even if they were going for that angle i don’t see the toeles
It sounds like capitulation and endorsement“hecksher”??? for a student club?
What does the hecksher entail (what refreshments they serve? what they do on Shabbos? off campus “social” (sic) activities?)
Would they give a hecksher to a club studying how to make money engaging in Ribis (buying and sell securities, including bonds, stocks on margin, leveraged loans, etc.)?
They did it because they know the courts will force them to acknowledge an LGBT club. Since their problem was that such a club is not compatible with the schools “torah values” this way they can claim that YU upholds its Torah values,” A yeshiva that maintains actual torah values will expel students that carry a flag identifying themselves as violating chayvie krisohs just as they would students who identify as pork eaters or sabbath violators.
The idea is to help people who have urges but don’t actually violate chyvie krisos.
There’s no need for a “club.” If the intention is solely to support such people, they would appoint a group of therapists and/or rebbeim who specialize in understanding these struggles and let the students go to them. Actually, i think in light of the nisyonos we live in, every yeshiva should have one such designated person, for toeva YH and for normative YH.
Maybe that’s part of the program.
yitz17,
Firstly ,FAlse .They likely will win if they would HOLD strong
Second, So what ?? Even if?! Everything Cardinal standard is negotiable?
How about club for child murder?What if that was being coered?Anyone can give themselves a L*****Q** letter when it has become the way to get ahead
Among youth it is therefore far higher although still incessantly somehow they tell us it is genetic!lakewhat,
Humans had to struggle with endless different things but choosing even identifying with them put that person as a world class machte’ei HarabimDaMoshe,
So blithe?Which chiyuv missa do you have a yetzer for and are regularly oiverSo How about clubs for other urges which DO exist?
Rape?Racketeering?Adultery?“The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
get-r-dun’
Someone has a hedonistic axe to grind . keep goingThis Week .Ironic
cf. Tanchuma Re’eh
During the days of Noach Not everyone was sinning Or Immoral personally ,
There were people smugly tolerant, benigly hosted the perverts( with tragic issues and urges,for sure), couldn’t care what consensual sins others did – and for it they were destroyed also
Noach did care,tried to protest somewhat and that’s why he was saved
but less than enough and for that even he was castigatedTypo legally coerced
JewishPress 3/18/2020
..but Rav Herschel Schachter, rosh kollel at Yeshiva University, said that the forced closures of shuls and schools should be seen as a clear message from above that we are failing in our responsibilities as “G-d’s firstborn” to be role models to the nations of the world.
“The world is full of atheism, avodah zarah, immorality, abortion, and murder, and the fundamental sheva mitzvos bnei Noach, the seven Noahide laws, aren’t being observed in society,” said Rav Schachter.
Rav Schachter observed that we should all be thankful that G-d took an oath after the flood in the time of Noach never to destroy the entire world again. “The whole world is rebelling,” he noted. “If I were G-d, I would be very angry right now. We need to work harder and do our jobs better so that we can be an ohr lagoyim.”
Time for Truth: I’m not sure why you ask. Yes, I have my own taivos just like everyone else, and I’m sure everyone here also transgresses things at times, sometimes even regularly.
This particular issue, IMO, is one of the most difficult for a frum Jew. With other taivos, we either have alternatives (such as a taivah for treif food – there are delicious options which are kosher), or in time things will be allowed (if a teen has normal teenage urges, they know one day they will likely be married).
When it comes to this, if someone wants to stay frum, what does that mean? It means being condemned to a life alone, without a partner. To never be able to have anything to remove the urge. It’s a terrible situation to be in, and they need support. That doesn’t even take into account the effects of society trying to convince the world that this is all normal, and attacking those who are opposed to this lifestyle.DaMoshe,
According to two sources the Amalek we must defeat before the End Of Days are These
There are more out there whose biological urge could only properly be satisfied throught Rape.
cf.Thornhill,Palmer 2011
So what would you recommend? Too bad on them!
Yeshaya 56:3-5
They Should marry Klal yisroel or their shtender
Nothing novel.There were so many throughout previous generations
On an individual level we could deal with them if they are willing to be control themselves (And yes despite present propaganda -this could readily be channeled)And Heaven forbid for them to officially be given the license join the Societal Subversionget-r-dun’
Someone has a hedonistic axe to grind . keep going
Re its time;
That was called an attempt at humor. No need to be so uptightDecline to disclose and rude.The Short answer:Yes I have indeed
More people have than you realize . If their issues were avant garde they would paraded.They themselves just take it as course of life
There are many so-called Otthodox who really wish to teli HKB”H, we don’t need you or your Torah Times have changed and in todays PC world, the Laws of the Torah no longer apply
If only we would shun these people and STOP BEING MICHANEFF them at every given opportunity
cf. Ramban on Devarim 27:26One who shirks their obligation to uphold everyone’s Judaism is “Arur”
The most attainable goal now is to alert and Wake Up Yidden seeking Emes.
The greatest threat facing Jewry is not intermarriage or assimilation, but rather perversion of the Torah,
(Mishnas Reb Aharon 1:2,3:6)Any sleight of hand cave in for this ,And the edifice of Judaism is a facade
What in Judaism is chayav sekilla,Of 3 Chamuros for which one must sacrifice
One of 7 mitvos of Noach,
You’re allowed to kill the person before they do the act
And is never ever suspended(Murder by comparison is suspended and permitted e.g for judicial officers and drafted soldiers)?
Try to guessSeeing that the world is at the point where homosexuality is not only considered accepted and normal we’re almost at the point that straight people have to apologize for being the way we are,
The only purpose the club would serve would be to normalize that in the Torah world. Even if the intention is to do it using Torah values and guidance, it would normalize it too much. I’m pretty certain that if the Lakewood yeshiva was faced with that decision that they would not cave an iotaGet-r-dun (should I call you Larry?), it depends on what you mean by acceptance. Do we except that there are homosexuals? Yes, we do. There is nothing wrong with being gay. What is wrong is acting on the urges to be with someone of the same gender.
As I wrote before, we do need more acceptance. The people faced with this challenge need more love and acceptance than most others. They face an extremely difficult challenge in life. Looking down on them for how Hashem created them is 100% wrong. In fact, someone facing this challenge who stays true to Torah values should be applauded. That’s the purpose of the club. To accept the people for how they were created, and to support them in following the derech haTorah.It is against science which says opposites attract likes repel.
DaMoshe: Do you say the same for pedophiles who don’t act on their urges? Then why hasn’t Y.U. yet created the Y.U. Pedophilic Support Club to accept the people that were created as pedophiles?
Joseph, nobody is preaching acceptance for pedophiles. That’s the main difference.
ymribriat: If you accept YU’s solution to the homosexual problem is to create a YU Homosexual Support Club, then by logical extension you must insist that YU similarly create a YU Pedophilic Support Club for the pedophile problem.
DaMoshe: Your point is irrelevant. YU is claiming their university sponsored Homosexual Club is designed to help YU homosexuals overcome their homosexual taaivas. As such, by logical extension YU must similarly create a YU Pedophilic Club to help YU pedophiles overcome their pedophilic taaivas.
Joseph, maybe you don’t understand how logic works.
DaMoshe: Be so kind to explain to us why it is logical for YU to sponsor a homosexual club, whereas on the same token it is not logical for YU to sponsor a pedophilic club.
ymribriat: There already is a currently active thread discussing exactly that. Please read the next thread following this one, entitled “Is YU officially a modern-Orthodox institution?” for discussing the point you question.
Ymribiat
Even if my statement was incorrect, which I don’t think it is, it’s a pretty strong statement saying it’s the most ridiculous comment ever on yeshiva world, Care to elaborate?
DaMoshe; yes Larry is fine!Ym
I agree that I made assumptions, which is how I started my statement that I’m pretty certain, of course I could be wrong.
My main point was contrast, of course some people are more suitable for the ideals of Lakewood, and some people need the YU, derech. And I believe in many cases Lakewood has pushed too far to the right, on the contrast yu. is pushing too far to the left. And I certainly agree that gay people need help and support. I was expressing my concern that making an official club would mainstream it too much.“right to privacy. Which means that other peoples lives are none of your ”
Trash. They’re drilling a hole as per Judaism To sink the ship for all of us
So yes it is certainly is.“demanding real human beings live a half life of celibacy without the possibly of emotional intimacy.” There were many who managed to get that quite fine without inappropriate relationships . And there now who many even married people who endure and survive without it. And surmount as they’re expected to
Fortunate are they.
Getting married And raising a family remain the biggest waste of life. Obviously most people feel the need to.There are so many more more important things to be accomplished for those who find it unnecessary
UnPC heresy“right to privacy. Which means that other peoples lives are none of your ”
Trash. They’re drilling a hole as per Judaism To sink the ship for all of us
So yes it is certainly is.“demanding real human beings live a half life of celibacy without the possibly of emotional intimacy.” There were many who managed to get that quite fine without inappropriate relationships . And there now who many even married people who endure and survive without it. And surmount as they’re expected to
Fortunate are they.
Getting married And raising a family remain the biggest waste of life. Obviously most people feel the need to.There are so many more more important things to be accomplished for those who find it unnecessary
UnPC heresy
A Gadol said some decades ago
“The greste k’fira in heintige tzeitin, is k’fira in bechira ”“that there are homosexuals? Yes, we do. There is nothing wrong with being gay. What is wrong is ”
False . Wrong.
Anyone who hangs out with criminals,
call himself a criminal,supports criminals,
and then claims he’s innocent
while obviously there is nothing wrong with lacking an attraction to the opposite gender
it is evil manifested to be to identifying any way possible with that term, the concept behind it ,
and what it conveysymribriat: How about we throw you into the gas chamber, rather than your vile suggestion of throwing the Jews you hate into the gas chamber, that you’ve identified in your last comment. Of course anyone who committed a crime committed a chilul Hashem (though just because someone was convicted by a corrupt secular court system and jailed in no way leave a presumption of guilt). But such a chilul Hashem does not reduce one iota the far greater chilul Hashem of anyone identifying themselves as a homosexual. As IITFT correctly pointed out, just because someone has taaivas (he doesn’t act upon) for the same gender, does not make them a homosexual, any more than someone who has taaivas for married women (that he doesn’t act upon), it does not make him an adulterer. The choice of self-identifying, especially in public, as a homosexual, is a truly vile chilul Hashem.
Furthermore, your go-to ad hominem of declaring anyone with the common sense of disagreeing with your wrongful “opinions” as having consumed too much talk radio or too little thought, is burnt out already with your absurd reasonings and lack of Torah values.
Ym, so when the goyim decide homosexuality is fine, you just follow suit, unthinking, conforming, telling yourself that gedolim change based on the world around them.
Yayn ra’al masachti, kemaat she’avadti. no values, no definitions of morality except not directly hurting others .. Until that too, will be sacrificed in matters such as abortion and assisted suicide.
What shlaimus hadaas, daas Torah, have you acquired that will accompany you in olam haba? How have you made your mind in sync with the thoughts of Hashem? Have you ever tried to conceive such a goal?
Enjoy your new York times, your blissful ignorance of chovas haadam beolamo. Because you’re thinking like someone whose place is this world, and this world alone.
Not just you, I’m directing this to everyone who thinks it’s ok to change our values.
Ymr
To go from criticism to gas chambers – wow.I think What some of the previous posters are trying to say, albeit unclearly, is that we can recognize and have compassion for indivuals who have powerful urges to commit various wrongdoings. But we should not buy in to the concept that an individual should by defined by those urges. That it’s his or her IDENTITY. From a Torah perspective , that’s untrue. A yid views these urges as a Yetzer Hora. Compassion and helping in overcoming urges is different than creating a framework for people who identify themselves as gay. There are all sorts of negative outcomes that flow from buying into this concept , as YU is.
YU is trying to figure out how to technically live with the letter of the law of Halacha, all the while buying in to completely non Jewish perspective and attitude. The synthesis results in apologetics and compromise. Unfortunately it’s not surprising …
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