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Hello: I found that Yabia Omer while trying to look this up again. I seem to recall that he has another T’shuvah but I can’t find it. I’ll keep looking though and revive this thread when I do.
Until Sam gets back to us, I think we of can conclude that the vast majority of accepted Poskim do not permit abortions without some risk to the mother’s life.
hello99: That much would be pretty obvious.
Well, I thought I posted what Rav Ovadia says. Either it got deleted or I posted it wrong. In case it got deleted, I’ll just stick with the Mar’eh Makom and let you guys look it up on your own. Yabiya Omer, Even Ha’ezer 4:1, Anafim 5 and 8, especially where he talks about Al Yedei Sam.
sam: that is the same teshuva I quoted where he requires sakana and argues on the Tzitz Eliezer’s kula
I am not a posek at all but if you look in the tzitz eliezer he has very good taanos on reb moshe
Chacham: Did the Tzitz raise his taainos to Reb Moshe? What was the response?
As far as I know reb moshe never responded or if he did it is not in tzitz eliezer or igros. but the argument does get very heated including words like adoini lo zu haderech etc.
Hello: Read what he quoted in Anaf 8 from the Beis Yehudah and what he says about Al Y’dei Sam. He gives the situations in which he is Mattir even without Sakanah.
Tomche and Chacham: The Tzitz Eliezer first gave his P’sak that it was okay for Tay-Sachs and I believed published it. In the Igros (Choshen Mishpat 2:69 if I recall correctly) R’ Moshe writes a lengthy Tshuvah about it and ends by saying he went to these lengths because he heard that a Rabbi in Sha’arei Tzedek hospital was Mattir. The Tzitz Eliezer responds and explains using some very strong Leshonos why, in his opinion, Rav Moshe’s argument wasn’t really an argument. There was no further discussion as their wasn’t really a need for it. Both had made their cases quite clear. Because of the nature of this argument, any further response by R’ Moshe would not have added anything to the issue.
the main argumentt boils down to a stira in teshuvas maharil 97 and 99. reb moshe holds that 99 must be a mistake or forgery.
In fact, the dispensation to consider chemical abortion a more lenient form of Grama is not usually relevant, as medical abortions are generally carried out through physical means and not medicines.
Hello: Fair enough. I’m still looking for what I thought previously was R’ Ovadia’s opinion. I know I saw it somewhere, and somewhere relevant. It’s been a while since I did this. I was not familiar with his Motzai Shabbos Shiur. And I am sure that if you ask they have just as effective chemical means of abortion as physical. But, in Eretz Yisroel, I will stand by my original statement. I never meant for it in America (and I apologize for never stating that earlier, I just realized that now), where it should be considered murder Mamash like R’ Moshe.
stam a question although this may not be the place for it.
why isn’t the tzitz eliezer’s quoted in any other area of halacha. you barely ever hear of him. and his sefer is 22 volumes?
Sam: Why would the halacha be different in Eretz Yisroel than in America?
Chein: Very, very few people have the authority to argue with R’ Moshe in America. In Eretz Yisroel there is more room to hold like someone else in major cases.
And Chacham: There are 24 volumes of the Tzitz Eliezer and a very high percentage of his T’shuvos are about medical issues. I don’t think it’s so much that he’s not quoted anywhere else as much as it is that he is never not quoted on these topics.
Sam: That doesn’t answer my question.
sam: “Medical abortions” are non-surgical abortions that use pharmaceutical drugs, categorically called abortifacients. In 2005, medical abortions constituted 13% of all abortions in the United States;[19] in 2010 the figure increased to 17%” copied from wikipedia.
It is only effective until 9 weeks.
The Halacha would not be different per se. The willingness of any Rov to be Matir such a serious case would.
Chacham: the Tzitz Eliezer is a sefer respected by many Poskim on all topics. The length of many of his Teshuvos precludes it becoming popular among the less learned.
Also, politically he was a bit on the fringe of mainstream Chareidi, so some do not give his teshuvos the weight they deserve.
actually it is only 22 volumes. I have the set and I am a big chossid of the sefer. I really like his entire mehalach that mixes paskening with sevaros and the sugya and the mehalach of bringing down all the poskim that ever paskened one way. I just want to know why nobody uses him for anything not medical. The first six chalokim barely discuss any medical shayalos, and the rest of the chalokim have plenty of regular shayalos as well. Why is his opinion rarely heard. And how come barely anybody heard of Rav Woldenburg they only heard of tzitz eliezer.
Chacham: There are 24 volumes. 23 and 24 have not yet been published in the set, they are only available in individual volumes. He published 18 in his lifetime and then the last 6 came out posthumously. And while the first 6 volumes do not deal so much with medical things, many of the discussions are far too long to be casually learned, so they are mainly only learned by big Poskim or as Mar’eh Mekomos.
do you know where i can get 23 and 24
I do not. The only place I saw them was a Yeshivah’s library. They are the really tall black volumes. I am also waiting until I find them to complete my set.
Hello: I was listening to an old shiur by Rav Schachter online (if you want to find it, it’s Inyonei Chullin #22 on Yutorah) and he told a story. A doctor asked R’ Shlomo Zalman if an abortion was Assur in a certain very tough situation. R’ Shlomo Zalman kept saying no and the doctor kept telling him that this is a tremendous Sha’as Hadchak and kept bugging him. Eventually, after Rav Shlomo Zalman said no many times he asked R’ Shlomo Zalman to think about it and get back to him the next day. The next day R’ Shlomo Zalman said he still thinks it’s Assur but there is a posek in Yerushalayim (R’ Waldenberg) who is Mattir and that the doctor should ask him.
I know that story about Reb Shlomo Zalman, and have heard similar ones,first hand, involving him or other great poskim. I rest my previously stated case, which was that great poskim have been known to defer to other (great) poskim.
I would like to correct a possible misconception here. From the story, it sounds almost as if Reb Shlomo Zalman is mentioning someone else who happens to be a posek. That would not be an accurate representation. Those two great people, Reb Shlomo Zalman and Rav Waldenberg, were good friends and knew each other from their early years.They lived only a few minutes walk from each other and conferred often. Needless to say they had tremendous admiration and respect for each other. They may not have agreed on everything, but that is only natural.
One more thing. In Eretz Yisrael, the Tzitz Eliezer is known by everyone and is quoted all the time. It is unfair and a bit arrogant to ask “And how come barely anybody heard of Rav Woldenburg they only heard of tzitz eliezer.” That would be like asking why no one has heard of Rav Karelitz, they only heard of the Chazon Ish”. I venture that many accepted and even great poskim in the U.S. are relatively unknown here in Eretz Hakodesh. That does not detract from their stature.
“Old man,” you sound very much like Dr. 80…
(I still can’t call someone an “Old man,” so I’m putting the name in quotes)
sam: did he specify the “certain very tough situation”? He may have become convinced that there was a slight possibility of danger to the mother, and only based on that he would send someone to the Tzitz. Even then he would not permit himself
Clearly, the first many times he was “bugged” he was not even willing to send to the Tzitz.
old man: Noone is doubting that Poskim occasionally defer to each other. The point is that on this specific issue the Poskim do NOT defer to Rav Waldenberg! Certainly NO responsible Posek would “Send the questioner to a doctor who “will tell you what needs to be done””
Additionally, I don’t know what circles you frequent, but the Tzitz Eliezer is NOT quoted all the time by Chareidi Poskim in EY. He is respected, but rarely quoted.
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