Telling parents about lifestyle changes

mdd is “popa”ing me. I’m the one who is supposed to state opinions as conclusion in a matter of fact way.

I guess I deserve it.

In any event, mdd, we’ve had this particular debate before I think, and I remain as I did, that parents should love their children even if they are hitler. Just as Hashem does.

“Just as Hashem does”

Am I mistaken or is that an entirely Christian dogma? I know we are commanded to love Hashem, but where does it say that Hashem loves all His children unconditionally? I know where it says Hashem loves klal yisroel, and I know where it says Hashem tolerates and awaits a sinner’s pennance, but loving the sinner equally to the tzaddik? Voo shteit

The OP did not ask for opinions regarding his lifestyle change, just if he should tell his parents and how. No one picked up on the fact that they are undergoing other stresses as well.

I think perhaps the OP might like to discuss this with their Rav or someone they are close to. Medical issues and or age of the parent should be taken into account. Assuming this sudden news wouldn’t have severe adverse affects, I’d advise the OP to share it with them, perhaps in a letter initially.

I’m the one who is supposed to state opinions as conclusion in a matter of fact way.

🙂

If I understand Popa, he is not saying that Hashem doesn’t care if we sin or not, but that Hashem loves us and has forbearance with us and wants us to do what is good for us no matter what, even if we make the wrong choices sometimes. This is implied in the 13 Middos HaRachamim.

In the kabbalistic sefer Tomer Devorah it describes Hashem’s complete Kindness and eternal forgiveness and tolerance, and how to emulate Hashem in these ways. The parts of this sefer that are somewhat understandable are very beautiful and it is well worth reading.

If we should act this way to all people, even more so we should treat other Jews, and those closest to us, our families, with loving guidance and tolerance and kindness regardless of their choices.

For example, suppose someone ch”v has an anorexic child. It is an aveira for that child to not eat. Does Hashem not love this child because they are doing an aveira? As the parent, do you hate the child and treat them as a sinner, or do you love them and try to help them?

You may need to force feed the child to get them back to normal and threaten them with the hospital, but we know that this is not a healthy or good solution. The child needs to eat out of love, for their own good, and the fear is a temporary measure at best.

A healthy body wants to eat, and itself is scared of not eating. And a healthy soul wants to do good things, and itself avoids and stays away from evil and temptations.

Similarly Hashem wants us to educate our children to be like ????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???, and once you are serving out of love and not for the reward, because you are healthy and want to do good and have a loving relationship with Hashem, then of course, ???? ???? ???? ?????, you will avoid evil.

Yytz, there are certainly clear sources that show that you are wrong. Same to you, Torah613. Just read Tehillim paying attention to the psukim. They say openly that HaShem hates reshoim.

Btw, “Tomer Devora”‘s opinion is not poshut at all. Most Gedolim don’t hold like him. Look in Pesochim 113B and the relevant Rambam.

And Torah613,”morah Shamaim” means fear of Heaven and not avoiding evil.

“Just read tehillim”

Just read your face. What kind of response is that? How about you just read yirmiah and yeshaya.

Certainly, you can find pesukim suggesting that Hashem hates sinners (rather than “loving the sinner and hating the sin”), but there are certainly good sources showing that Hashem loves all Jews, and indeed all his creations (though not necessarily equally.)

The Besht taught that “G-d loves every Jew more than parents love an only child born to them in their old age.”

The Lubavitcher Rebbe commented:

“This teaching of the Baal Shem Tov applies to every member of our people without distinction. Even a Jew’s failure to observe the Torah and its commandments cannot detract from this love, for it is rooted in the very essence of his being and that of G-d, as it were. The essence of every Jew is his soul, which is ‘an actual part of G-d from above.'[8] This defines his fundamental personality.

A person’s failure to manifest this dimension in his actual conduct does not affect this essential connection. A Jew always remains a Jew. Thus Maimonides rules that every Jew, even one who protests the contrary, ‘wants to be part of the Jewish people and desires to fulfill all the mitzvos and separate himself from sin, and it is only his Evil Inclination which forces him [to do otherwise].'[9]

What does a Jew really desire? — To fulfill G-d’s will. And if he does not conduct himself accordingly, we should realize that he is momentarily not in control of his behavior: it is his yetzer hara which is forcing him to act contrary to his true self.

G-d Loves Every Jew as He Is

It is therefore utterly out of place to belittle the virtues of those of our people who do not yet fully observe the Torah. Moreover, unloving rebuke is likely to break their spirit and dampen their innate Jewish zeal. With a more positive approach, however, the response is heartening indeed. In the last few decades, thousands of individuals and families have chosen to return to a lifestyle inspired by the Torah. In overwhelming proportions, the immediate reason for their choice is that someone reached out to them warmly and lovingly; a fellow Jew showed them how the practice of Judaism can infuse joy and meaning into their lives — because it attunes them to their innermost selves.”

Sure, whatever. Feel free to think Hashem hates you. He loves you even so.

I see no reason to tell your parents. I havent told my parents and they are 1.5 miles away, not 6000. If they do ask, be honest. If they don’t let them assume what they want to, noone gets hurt that way.

My parents “know” that i’m otd but my dad doesn’t push it. we have had a great don’t ask dont tell policy for > a decade. My mother asks too many questions (of which i am honest). when she doesnt like the answer, or more often says “don’t tell your father it would kill him” i usually respond something like “if you don’t want to know, stop asking” or “It WOULD kill him, thats why he has the sense not to ask”. In the meantime, my father is amazing. he will repeat a good vurt if he hears one and we have many intellectually stimulating conversations about science and history. Our relationship could not be better. and before someone argues that the relationship is based on a falsehood, i will preempt to disagree. Life is not all about religion and religious observance. All the things you all have mentioned about davening 3x a day, or saying tehillim or doing tshuva has NOTHING to do with your relationship with another human being.

There is a Chazal where R’ Meir says:” why should I accumulate money for my children? If they are righteous, HaShem will provide. If not, why should I accumulate money for enemies of HaShem?”.

Lulei D’mistafina, I’ll keep my mouth shut.

I imagine this argument is similar to one had between Bais Shammai & Bais Hillel.

If you quote me Chassidus to demonstrate your point, you are actually reinforcing my point about the dogma.

GAW, actually, it is not. There are very clear sources to what I am saying.

Fkelly, just decided that Yiddishkeit is not for him? A trifle according to you?

I am going to side with Popa here, V’lav Mita’ameih. It is terrible parenting to explicitly state such a thing to your child. That does no one any good. That does not change the fact, however, that sometimes it has to be true. A Frum kid should know that if he forces his parents to choose between him and Frumkeit, they’ll choose Frumkeit. Frum parents won’t eat at his Treif house, for example. But there are ways to show that and ways that are just wrong.

Squeak is correct, actually, about the connection between Hasidut and Christianity. See Shaul Magid’s article “Brother Where Art Thou?,” as well as Rivash, Shut 157, where he explains similarities between the belief in Sefirot and Trinitarianism (see also the writings of R’ Leon deModena on this point). Of course, the belief that a rebbe or tzaddik can pull one out of gehenam by the peyos (R’ Nachman miBreslov, trans. Rabbi Nachman’s Wisdom #141), the belief that a chicken’s blood can provide vicarious atonement (kapparot), the belief that tzaddikim suffer due to the sins of the dor, the belief that there will be a second coming of the mashiach (many Lubavitchers believe this), and associations between mashiach and the 53rd perek of Yeshaya seen in much kabbalistic and hasidic literature seem to demonstrate similarities between Xianity and Hasidic thought.

Torah-

I appreciate your responses. And you make a good point about trolling, so let me try to clean up. I was not actually comparing Chassidus to Christianity, though people such as rebdoniel and Chaim Potok might, but rather saying that the assertion is based on what we wish to believe rather than what we have been taught as Truth.

As far as your point about tolerating sinners, well that’s just it. We are told Hashem tolerates, not loves. Kel erech apayim, and a hundred other well-known quotes, spell this out.

fkelly-

You are mistaken about popa’s viewpoint. See here

RebDoniel: 1) sefiros do not relate to chassidim in particular, but rather are a core feature of all kabbalah for at least the last 500 years, 2) pulling someone out of gehinom by his peyos was not meant literally (and anyway it is consistent with the statement in the Zohar that tzaddikim are more powerful after death than before), 3) I personally use money, but I don’t see why kapparos with a chicken (which by the way is not limited to chassidim) is any more Xian than the original Torah version of pushing the “scapegoat” off a cliff, 4) the Gemara itself says the death of tzaddikim atone for the sins of the generation (maybe Shabbos 133), so this is not far-fetched, 5) this is a very recent belief, so can’t be used to judge all chassidus, 6) many ancient rabbinic commentaries also associate Yeshaya 53 with moshiach — Xians aren’t the only ones, but that doesn’t prove they’re right.

Aside from the meshichists I don’t see any significant similarities with Xianity in what you wrote. Even in the case of meshichists the similarity is coincidental — they don’t believe the Rebbe died for their sins to atone for humanity’s sin and enable us to be saved, as Xians believe about their alleged savior.

Ben Levi, the shailah is how the Torah views it!

MDD

I would tend to think personally that the Torah does not view a Mechallel Shabbos B’farhesya all that much differently then a rapist if not worse.

And let me be clear as to my meaning.

The biggest tragedy that can happen to many families of yirei shomayim is if they have a child go OTD.

Well that’s crazy! Can you really equate the two? I mean just think about it! A murderer and mechalel shabbos are the same???

sheepyaff: Punishment doesn’t equal “worse” in Halacha. “Worse” is up to the Ribbono Shel Olam to decide.

MDD: Most non-frum yidden don’t know enough to be a Rasha. Even if they “know”, its not internalized.

As for RSS, his statement has nothing to do with loving a child or not. He is simply saying that he will not be Over Avairos due to them (if it came to that).

Ben Levi – forgive me if I am wrong but it sounds like you are saying that YOU believe that the Torah/frum equate the two, (and that you bear resentment for it, for lack of a better phrase), but that does not make it so. Sometimes these false impressions are the basis of much disdain and I am sorry for who/whatever led you to believe that is so.

GAW, you are wrong. It is clear from the Gemorah and Meforshim Rishonim and Achronim that the type of punishment indicates what’s worse. That’s why someone who does chayavei krisos or misos beis din needs suffering to atone for his sin while someone who violates a simple (so to speak) issur does not. That’s why a positive commandment does not push aside an issur kores and so on and so forth. Ok, some bein adam le’chaveiros might not have an issur kores on them but one can be very punished for them. That’s true.

Secondly, GAW, if a frei Yid knows that the Torah is true (even without internalizing it) and does not keep it, he is a rosha.

Interjection, it is openly stated in the Rabmam’s Hilchos Teshuvah. Do you belive in what it says there?

It is clear from the Gemorah and Meforshim Rishonim and Achronim that the type of punishment indicates what’s worse.

You are somewhat correct (Ayin BB 88B for a large exception), but that is not relevant to the point being made. Someone who doesn’t know (or recognize) that Chillul Shabbos is a problem (e.g. a Tinok Shenishba) will be punished less for that than someone who is MeAnes, or someone who cheats, while knowing it is wrong. Only the Ribbono Shel Olam knows what a person’s situation is and what they should be doing B’Asher Hu Sham.

Secondly, GAW, if a frei Yid knows that the Torah is true (even without internalizing it) and does not keep it, he is a rosha.

Judge not, that ye be not judged.

(In general, it’s not a bad idea, and certainly to those who have taken a step up so they should not look poorly on everyone below tham)

Once again, you don’t know where someone is holding and what the Ribbono Shel Olam expects from them in their situation to declare them to be a “Rasha”*. Perhaps they passed (or are passing) their Nisayon, and are doing what Hashem requires from them.

* There are exceptions, such as hitting someone or cheating, for which Chazal or the Torah (resp.) call someone who does them a “Rasha”.

mdd – If I’m interpreting correctly, your response to 000646’s question (short answer) is ‘yes’. Is that accurate? (‘yes’ or ‘no’ will do)