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Even though Islam is not a form of idolatry it is an Emuna Zara and one who follows them is an Apikores, a real one. Getting up in front of a religious group to say their religious chant is an obvious admission to their religion. All the famous arguments of Mechazek yedei Kofrim, and all that, apply here.
How weird it is, that those who easilly yell, Cuffrim, at many occasions will stick up for actual Kfira.
ymb- I never heard of rabbi Froman and I stll don’t know who he is. The difference is simple; rabbi Forman is one individual, totally unknown to boot- the Neturai Karta- at least that branch of NK- is prominent- looks for every opportunity to clamor thier message ( see video and others..) and it is their “shittah’ of allowing Erezz Yisorel to be destroyed that is the most despicable thing…..quite different than rabbi Forman…
Sam –
There is a HUGE difference. In Christianity, at least in medieval times, there was such a thing as bowing to the cross, even if it was not done to “worship” it. There is no such thing as bowing to Muhammad. As for poskim being misinformed about other religions’ practices – if they lived among the religion they are discussing, fine. Otherwise it is pashut that it is more likely they were misinformed, and I have no idea why you think that is unlikely. This is compounded by the verifiable historical fact that Christians during the time of the Ran propagated patently false information about Moslems to make them appear as idol worshipers. And as I said earlier, the Ran lived in Christian Spain. You can find all this using Google and Wikipedia.
Yitay: See HaLeiVi’s response. I think he’s right (even if he went a bit too far in his self-righteous rant defending the Ran).
HaLevi, Rav Moshe (a late Achron) wrote about a certain shitta of Rabbeinu Tam (a Rishon) that it is a fregt-up shitta. If you meshamesh Talmidei Chachomim enough, you’ll find out that your approach is not aliba de’kuli alma.
HaLevi, some ulta-frum have a god-like reverence for Gedolim. Is their version of Yiddishkeit an avoda zora?
Mdd: Of course. See what happened to certain parts of Breslov and Chabad. They took it to the farthest logical extension and are actually Apikorsim and Ovdei Avodah Zarah.
mdd:
I was clear that I’m not talking about Paskenning. I was talking about the easy, off-the-bat dismissal of his words, by simply calling it Shver, without even asking a Kasha. Sort of the way you would wave off a Svara from a friend.
Divrei Chulin Shel Talmid Chacham Tzrichin Talmud. How much more so, his Torah, especially what he commited to writing. When something is Shver the first response is Iyun. If that doesn’t help, be Me’ayen more. It’s true that a Posek won’t Pasken like a Daas Yachid, especially when he can’t see the logic. But that is after a real Iyun. Either way, the actual Shita is never dismissed. We do acknowledge that Kitnam Ava Mimasneinu.
Now to your Kasha about reverence. Realize that real, original Ovdei Avoda Zara didn’t believe that their particular Getchka created the world. They only believed that it is one of many in the jungle of gods and goddesses that were worth worshiping. In that light, ancestor worship and saint worship take on more meaning. The Ran is saying that bowing to them as if they were in front of them fits the bill. It is the worship of that other-than-human being.
You mentioned trinity as a reason why Christianity is Avoda Zara. It would seem, though, that although it is Apikursus and it goes against the Ikkur of Hashem Echad, it is still not worship of someone other than the Creator of the universe, even if the discription of Him is a wrong one. Tosafos in Sanhedrin uses this Svara to explain why one may cause a Christian to swear by G-d, even though they are referring to ‘Davar Acher’.
I have no interest in getting into this discussion. This is what I hold the halacha is. We can agree to disagree.
HaLevi, stop lecturing me in a manner as if you were my rebbe.
Now, to the matter at hand. If it were a Ran about hilchos gittin, for example, I would follow the way you described. We talk, however, about something that it is open for anybody in in the world to know (unless you are too Yeshivish), namely, that Moslems do not worship Mohamed, but HaShem only. All the bowing is no more that you getting up in front of your Rov. Rambam, who lived among them and knew them well, and who we usually pasken like over Ran, held that their religion is no avoda zora. S.A. paskens like that.
Now, to your contention that the shitta is never dismissed, reread my post about whar Reb Moshe wrote!
Also, Christianity is not avoda zora?!? So why is yehareg ve’lo’ya’avor? The reason always given is that it is avoda zora!
The Noda B’Yehuda writes that shituf is avoda zora (even for a gentile).
The difference is that my Rov is alive. that is exactly the difference the Ran says.
I didn’t see the words of Reb Moshe that you are referring to. It sounds from your words that he is saying that it is Fregt Up by other Rishonim. And as I said, it is normal in Halacha not to follow a Rishon when it is considered obscure. I agree again that the Halacha does not follow this Ran.
BTW, that wasn’t a lecture, it was my actual opinion. That is the way I learn a Rishon, don’t you?
Why is there no kovod for a dead person?? Even by the Yidden, there is such a concept as kovod ha’mes.
There is such a mahalach ha’psak when an Achron after learning through a sugya could be machria in a machlokes Rishonim. That’s what Reb Moshe held.
Again, in this case, we are talking about well-known facts. We are not talking about some concept in dinei mamonos.
I objected to your tone and style of talking to me.
Let us stop going in circles!
Mestama, if a Godol wrote that Paris is the capital of Turkey, you would never say that he made a mistake. Would you?
Perhaps the Noda Beyehuda has other Rishonim, not like that Tosafos. Come to think of it, the Gemara (including Chesronos Hashas) mentions Yom Alef Shel Notzri along with Yom Eidam of Avodos Zara.
mdd, they have other problems, too. There are icons. Also, Apikursus is also Yehareg V’al Yaavor, which leads me back to the original topic here, that a public acknowledgement to a different belief is like a Modeh Ba’avoda Zara.
What would you think about someone getting up in front of a Christian group and reciting a Christian prayer that happens not to use any questionable term?
HaLeiVi: Many Rishonim (most notably the Rambam) argue on that Tosfos and many Achronim hold that P’shat in that Tosfos is also that Shittuf is Avodah Zarah for Goyim, just that there’s no Issur of Lo Sishama Al Picha by a Shittuf.
Sam2 – just looking at your first post: “
aying ‘Allah Akhbar’ is, at very best, praising Avodah Zarah and should be Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor.”Funny… At very best? So what’s the worst? It might also be a s’gula like schlissel challa?
Rav Kuk once allowed a shochet to say “Allah hu akbar” while shechting meat for sale to Moslems (this was their precondition). NK also shechts.
HaLevi, onther Rishonim argue on Rabbeinu Tam. It is Reb Moshe, however, who called his shitta freg-up. Get it?
Frum: I was clearly only saying according to the Tzitz Eliezer.
Mdd: Are you R’ Moshe?
Sam2: 1) Reb Moshe was a late Achron; 2) I am not Reb Moshe, but not an am ha’aretz, either. 3) Tzitz Eliezer havi ruba de’alma? Mai hai?
mdd, you ask, on the Ran, why is that different than ordinary Kavod Hamess. This wouldn’t quiet stump the Ran. As I explained earlier, nobody bows to someone who is not in front of them.
There are things that Rishonim didn’t know. But how to think was not one of them.
You assumed at first that the Ran was saying they worship him as a regular god. I can’t blame you for that understanding. It did seem that way from Sam’s original words. However, now that you saw the Ran’s words you can see how he equates their reverence to him with the Christian reverence to their saints. They never claim their saints to be gods, and yet the Ran says the same thing about them. Chada Metaretz Chaverta.
In what tone was “get it?” said, was it like “you’re exactly right”? So you are telling me that when Reb Moshe didn’t Pasken like a Shita because other Rishonim Fregt it up, that is equivalent to dismissing the words of a Rishon out of I-don’t-understand!?
Even when other Rishonim Freg up another Rishon, it is often with a simple question. It is obvious that he had a Pshat. We just can’t go with it if we don’t understand it.
Sam, that Tosafos has two parts. First he addresses the fact that they mention G-d together with their saints, which is the Issur of Shituf. Then he mentions the issue that when they say the Sheim they mean Davar Acher.
To the first issue he says it’s not a problem, and to the second he says that their Kavana is to the Osei Shamayim Va’aretz, whatever that means to them.
HaLevi ,do me a favor read my posts carefully! Other Rishonim argued. Reb Moshe called the shitta freg-up!!
1.As far as I remember the Ran, they bow in front of his coffin like that. It is a simple act of reverence. 2. If they do not treat him as a deity, it can’t be avoda zora.
What about Paris being the capital of Turkey? I guess, as far as you go, it would be.
Rishonim were greateer than us, but they were people. They were not unfallible.
The pshat in kashois is that ha’makshe holds that whatever teretz the the other party has, it is not going to be enough of an answer, and the teretz is going to be a big doihek.
Stop with you misplaced and misinformed kanaus, bnei Levi!
Aside from the question of what Allah Akbar means, there’s the question of what Muslims think it means.
If a Muslim hears you saying Allah Akbar he thinks you are endorsing his religion.
It’s a Chillul Hashem. Bottom line.
Just a fact that you ought to be aware of before making sweeping comparisons between religions:
“The ancient church, in both Eastern Christianity and Western Christianity, developed a tradition of asking for the intercession of (deceased) saints, and this remains the practice of most Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and some Anglican churches. Churches of the Protestant Reformation* however rejected prayer to the saints, largely on the basis of the sole mediatorship of Christ. The reformer Huldrych Zwingli admitted that he had offered prayers to the saints until his reading of the Bible convinced him that this was idolatrous.” (from Wikipedia: Christianity: Prayer)
And don’t forget (or be aware) that Catholic churches are full of actual statues of the saints.
I’m not coming back into this discussion, just presenting these facts.
*Which of course was way after the Ran’s time.
mdd, when the Gemara says, Hah D’reb Pap Teyuvta, and I ask you if we Pasken like that Rav Papa, you will answer that it was Itosav, or Mufrach. You won’t go and start adding your own arguments against Rav Papa, would you?
That’s exactly the case over here. Reb Moshe is saying that a Shita is Mufrach, because it was rejected by other Rishonim. And as you explained, he would have something to answer, but the other Rishonim would not hold of that answer. Reb Moshe was not saying that it is Mufrach because of his own Kasha. At most, he would say that it is Tmu’a. Calling the Ran a ‘person’ in order to ask a very basic question of faulty logic does not square.
His Lashon was quoted here. He doesn’t mention a coffin and I don’t think he meant the coffins of the Christian saints, either.
What are you talking about with this Paris thing? Either way, as I said, it is one thing to say he wasn’t aware of something and quiet another to say he wasn’t aware of your basic question.
HaLeiVi: To be fair, R’ Moshe does say (in two or three places) that when you really learn and are sure you have a Tiyuvta on a Rishon that you can reject it. He does this himself a few times. That doesn’t mean, however, that every learned person can do this.
Other Rishonom asked kashios on Rabbeinu Tam. Reb Moshe held that the kashos are so strong, and Rabbeinu Tam is so shvere, that his shitta is mufrach and not to be relied upon for p’sak. Avnei Nezer held nit azoi. It was Reb Moshe’s opinion!
Ve’adaraba, if the questions on the Ran were not so strong, I would not say it is a shvere shitta — because what’s so shvere? The kashios are not so, so strong. It is another deyah. Just because the kashios are so shtark, I said what I said.
Against Rav Papa – no. Against a Rishon — Achronim do that.
Then, wher do Muslims bow in front of him? In a regular mosque they bow only in front of HaShem.
This thread is so sick not worth a discussion and should be closed. It is sad that Yiden (on You Tube) can stoop so low.
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