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I just don’t get this group. Are they truly frum? Are they all nuts? How can a frum person so betray his own people with such hatred. I realize they are a small group but they seem collectively to be a chillul Hashem and I just don’t understand why they behave as they do.
They’re nuts.
Define frum.
They’re harmless loons and weirdos.
They certainly keep some (like all of us).
They’re following their Rabbis. Who are we to condemn? I find it most appalling that someone should want to criticize, find fault with this group? That’s their derech in Avodas Hashem. How dare one group malign another!!
LF,
I sincerely hope you’re joking.
Or that I missed some sort of sarcastic/humorous undertone in your post.
Their derech?
YCT has a derech and “rabbis”. And therefore we should grant them legitimacy?!
Joseph, you are WRONG.
It is dangerous to dismiss someone encouraging the murder of our people as a loon and a weirdo.
They are not harmless.
And by now we all know their intention is not to be harmless.
They are as harmless as the rotzchim they embrace and support.
Probably more.
If you believed that people such as Herzl, Ben Gurion, Sharon, Netanyahu, etc., were the modern equivalents of Shabatai Zvi or Yaakov Frank, what would you do?
If you saw the leaders of the Jewish community getting themselves into a hopeless war whose only likely outcome, except for a miracle, is that they will get themselves killed, what would you do?
golfer, no need to get melodramatic. They’re not encouraging the murder of our people. They’re harmless loons.
“Harmless loons who don’t encourage the murder of our people”–intentionally. Remember that they demonstrate alongside the murderers of our people.
Definitely not harmless, probably evil
“They’re harmless loons.”
Bar Kamtsa probably seemed like a harmless loon.
Words can build and words can destroy.
Rav Lior said in the name of Rav Kook said that any Jew who sides with our enemies against us is from the Erev Rav.
I highly disagree with the NK method and am not on the same page with much of their shittos, the truth is they really end up doing no real harm because no one takes them seriously.
But I hardly see people raising the same type of furor about George Soros, J Street, New Israel Fund, the Forward and similar organizations which are really much worse in their rhetoric and actually do real harm to Israel and Jews in general.
Why is that? Why are a couple of unwashed lunatics so much the focus of fury and no one mentions their disgust at The forward? At J Street? At George Soros and his Bend the Arc other dangerous organizations? Organizations that funnel cash to Hamas. Organizations that have actual access to US Government officials. The Forward was so proud how they sat With Obama and the Forward has been pressing agendas that are dangerous to Israeli security.
Why are those same organizations lauded by even the die hard liberals who post on the YWN CR? By the Rabbis and Rabbits of HIR and YCT?
The focus of ire is really misplaced.
Their actions are against everyone.
“Definitely not harmless, probably evil”
But what if they turn out to be right.
1) The zionists have been arguing for years that being Jewish is about living Eretz Yisrael and defending the medinah in battle – and that Torah and Mitsvos are something leftover from our distant dismal past. The great reformers of the 17th thru the 18th century (Shabbatai Zvi, Jacob Frank, Moses Mendelson, Isaac Wise) also aruged that Torah and Mitsvos no later defined Jewishness – and their followers came to no good end.
2) The zionists say that having a modern state makes Jews more secure and will win the respect of the nations of the world. That doesn’t seem to have happened. Israel is reviled throughout the world. More than once, only the intervention of goyim influenced by diaspora Jews saved the Israeli for being conquered by their enemies (or more technically, the patrons of their enemies). If the Muslims ever stop fighing each other (which in the past, has happened once every few centuries), Israel is unlikely to survive.
Israel aspires to be a great nation like the greatest of the goyim – but do we really want to place our hopes knowing that Israel will someday be as great as, for example, the Roman Empire, or the British Empire, or the Holy Roman Empire, or the “thousand year Reich”.
The zionists are gambling in a casino where the house always wins in the end, and Neturei Karta is just complaining about the bad bet.
Since when do they hate Arabs?
The road to a very hot place is paved with good intention
FHW: You’re quoting Saint Bernard of Clairvaux.
flatbusher:
I doubt that they hate Jews. They definitely have no love for Zionists who, as akuperma explained well, are the enemies of the Jewish people. But I would not accuse them of hating Jews unless I knew that to be the case.
In other words, their mistake is only in their methods. Proclaiming to the world that Zionists do not represent Jews is a very good thing.
They support what would destroy the land and the people in it. Does it really matter why?
Some are harmless loons
Some are well meaning but misguided and cofused
Some are just nasty self hating Jews and others are just hopeless attention seekers
nishtdayngesheft: Seeing people masquerading under the guise of frumkeit is more infuriating.
akuperma: “But what if they’re right.”
Then they should do their best to overturn the Zionist regime without inducing terror.
They aren’t “inducing terror”.
“If you believed that people such as Herzl, Ben Gurion, Sharon, Netanyahu, etc., were the modern equivalents of Shabatai Zvi or Yaakov Frank, what would you do?”
Well I certainly wouldn’t march along side Islamists and proud anti-Semites, that’s for sure. None of the mainstream anti-Zionist religious camp condones what they’re doing. When none of the gadolim would sanction shaking hands with those who have the same views as Hitler, yet they do so anyway, I think we can say they aren’t frum (at least to the same degree that we can call a far-left MO who ignores all of the major Rabbis “not frum”). Condemning the secular, Zionist state does not automatically equate to venerating Iran and Hezbollah. This thread isn’t about Zionism, it’s about the N”K’s extreme methods.
Nisht: That’s a good point. To the rest of the world, people take the opinions of organizations like JStreet more seriously, so they’re the ones we should really be talking about. The Nuturei Karta is a hot topic here because they claim to be representing religious Judaism which bothers a lot of the frum world who don’t agree.
Neville:
I disagree with your assertion that they are “not frum”.
Are they wrong in their methods? Yes. Even Satmar is quite clear about that. What should be done as a result? Ask your LOR.
But their “platform” of “Jews not Zionists” is absolutely and indisputably correct. There is no answer for Zionism. It is idolatry and heresy and no sane Jew should want any part of it, much less to graft that onto their religion, CH”V.
Yes, they are correct that it is not only wrong but offensive that the Zionists get away with convincing the world that their State is “the Jewish State” when this is blatant identity theft from the Jewish people.
Et al.
I’m curious whom you would consider to be more frum: an NK member or some “MO” guy who, for example, kisses other women socially and whose wife doesn’t (sometimes) cover her hair (and more), visting public beaches, mixed swimming, etc., etc.
I would think that intentionally and publicly transgressing gilui arayos, one of the big three, especially if you know that it’s assur (as opposed to just not knowing any better having been educated MO, R”L L”A), is far worse than a photo-op of you kissing a (potential) rotzeiach because you think that you’re saving Jewish lives by doing so.
a Zionist today is like the kana’im group in the times of nes chanuka & churban bayis sheini. they were the ones who WANTED to fight the romans or greeks, versus the torah chariedim that didn’t. there was nothing wrong with the kana’im they just had a more love & care for the land but were not the same as the yidden that fought with Yehoshua when conquering Israel the first time.
Dear Moshiach agent
What you wrote is a gross misrepresentation of the truth. It was precisely the Torah true chareidim who went out to fight the Greeks. Look at al hanisim,at all the midrashim of Chanukah,and al the meforshim.
And don’t mix the Greeks with the Romans. Two totally different issues.
frumhersh
Nobody mentioned Romans. Yevanim are Greek.
NK have appeared at protest events on Shabbos more than once and while they did not speak on the Dais, they did stand on the dais at these events on Shabbos. What posek would allow somone to appear on the Dais at an event on shabbos
Mashiach Agent:
The Zionists actually created a “Brit haBiryonim” back in the day. It is the Zionists who are like the biryonim who destroyed Yerushalayim’s food supplies in an attempt to “force” Jews to fight the Romans by the Churban, thereby, of course, hastening the destruction of the city and of course causing unimaginable pain and suffering as their fellow Jews starved to death. These are the heroes of the Zionists.
Whereas by Chanukah, as frumhersh pointed out, it was a mitzvah to fight the Greeks because they were out to secularize the Jews, as the Zionists do today, but it was NOT a fight for land or even physical safety. The Zionists, of course, distorted this and made it sound like some nationalist event, as is their usual modus operandi of shmad.
As usual, the Zionists continue to be on the wrong side of history.
ZD:
If I had to guess, I would assume the reason for their behavior is that Pikuach nefesh is docheh Shabbos.
The NK feel they are literally saving Jewish lives worldwide and they could possibly be very well correct in that assessment.
HaKatan: Of course I would consider the NK member who is otherwise observant in all areas of halachah to be more frum than your MO example.
Don’t paint me out to be a left-leaning MO type just because I harshly criticized the NK. The analogy I was making is more specifically this:
There are a lot of Dati Leumim who habitually ignore the Rabbonim when it comes to Zionism, but they are otherwise fully observant. Then there’s the Neturei Karta who habitually ignore the Rabbonim when their actions are condemned, but, again, they are otherwise fully observant. I think to weigh in on which one of these too groups would be more frum just comes down to our own biases. I just can’t bring myself to call someone a Torah Jew who shakes hands with the Ayatollah at a Holocaust denial conference.
Concerning the NK, it is said in the name of the Chazon Ish (it’s possible this is published in the Igros Chazon Ish) something like:
?????? ????? — ?????? ???? ??????? “Their intentions are proper, but their actions are not.”
Neville:
I certainly did not mean to accuse, but I think the response is nonetheless on point.
I also find your hypothetical comparison in your latest post to be interesting, and well worth analyzing. And I agree that bias could play a role here.
Let’s examine the facts:
The NK member’s goal is correct and even vital, perhaps to the level of pikuach nefesh, but, in the final analysis, his particular methodology is incorrect.
Whereas the “RZ” are (as products of their education system, etc.) engaged in idolatry and heresy.
So:
If you remove all the labels and ask an objective Torah Jew which of the two is less Jewish, the answer is absolutely the “RZ” because he has destroyed, or at least severely damaged, his very IDENTITY as a (Torah) Jew. Whereas the NK could be (or is) misguided in these particular actions, but could otherwise be the same maamin as the greatest gadol.
The question, then, is: what “bias” would make someone call it the other way, to make kissing a murderer (done to hopefully save Jewish lives) to be far worse than idolatry and heresy?
” what “bias” would make someone call it the other way, to make kissing a murderer (done to hopefully save Jewish lives) to be far worse than idolatry and heresy?”
The kind of bias that doesn’t equate Zionism to full blown idolatry in the literal sense. I.e. the opinion of seemingly every poster in the Coffee Room other than you. It’s just a halachic difference, I don’t mean any disrespect. If someone held me at gun point and asked me to bow down to an idol, I would take a bullet as the halachah requires. If someone held me at gun point and asked me to say the prayer for the state of Israel, I would reluctantly do so against my will. I assume you would take the bullet in both situations since you consider Zionism to be idolatry?
I have to ask, just out of curiosity, do you consider the extreme dati leumim who borderline worship Ben Gurion and company to be worse or the same as the secular Zionists who attach no religious significance to their beliefs?
Neville, you should say the prayer for the state of Israel (as well as the IDF) with simcha and hitlahavut. As Rav Soloveichik has said, if c”v Israel goes the entire Jewish people will go. Moreover, regardless of one’s political leanings one should identify with “Shield it with Your lovingkindness, envelop it in Your peace, and bestow Your light and truth upon its leaders, ministers, and advisors, and grace them with Your good counsel. Strengthen the hands of those who defend our holy land, grant them deliverance, and adorn them in a mantle of victory. Ordain peace in the land and grant its inhabitants eternal happiness.
Manifest yourself in the splendor of Your boldness before the eyes of all inhabitants of Your world, and may everyone endowed with a soul affirm that the Lord, God of Israel, is king and his dominion is absolute. Amen forevermore.”
If you live in Israel there is the added mitzva of praying for the government (Yermiahu 29:7).
What do you ean “borderline worship” BG? What borderline worship self-proclaimed mekuballim?
Avi, we all say prayers for the land of Israel and the coming of Moshiach. That has nothing to do with the current, secular state. It’s not a political thing. One shouldn’t pray for an entity run by anti-Semitic Arabs and self-loathing, liberal, atheist Jews. You can say it’s saved many lives, but so has America. It’s a state that lets Arab extremism flourish and suppresses Jewish free speech. It detains Kahane’s children without reason, and let’s Holocaust denying Arabs roam free and even serve in the Knesset. Israel has become a slave to international opinion and political correctness so much so that it bares greater resemblance to an Islamic state at this point than a Jewish state. If it stopped committing these actions that I consider anti-Jewish, would my opinion change? Absolutely. That’s where I do differ from the hardliner anti-Zionists here. I will be totally willing to change when Israel changes.
As for the borderline worship, I think you know what I mean. I’m not making a blanket accusation against all Zionists, but surely you’ve noticed the people who attach religious significance to people like Herzl, Ben Gurion, and Ben Yehudah who hated Judaism. I heard a tour guide in Israel refer to Herzl as “moshiach” one time. Herzl supported legally banning circumcision. We know these people exist. I’m not saying they represent mainstream religious Zionism, but they exist.
As for the second part of the question, I assume you meant to say “what about?” And yes, in that case it really depends on how far the “borderline worship” goes. Obviously there are con-artists in any religion. Nevertheless, I can better empathize with those who are drawn in to a religious figure rather than those who are religiously drawn to atheists like Herzl.
neville is right, Zoabi is free but Rabbi Meir Kahane; ztl grandson sits in jail so tell me is this what 26,000 Jewish children died for in the tzahal?
Neville:
While one should pray that Hashem keep Jews safe everywhere, including in Eretz Yisrael, one should, of course, NOT pray for the idolatrous and heretical State of Israel, which is also ongoing shmad and that is holding back the geulah.
While the “Reishis Tzmichas Geulaseinu” nonsense in that invented artificial prayer is “based on” a forgery and fraud, the mere act of prayer for the State of Israel is not necessarily an idolatrous act just as their flag is not technically a symbol of idolatry as per Rav Moshe.
So, no, the two situations you mentioned are not comparable.
Regardless, what exactly do you mean that you consider Zionism to be “not full-blown idolatry” and, more importantly, therefore, in this context, that it is essentially “more Jewish” to be a Zionist (of any stripe) than it is to kiss a murderer on the cheek because you think you’re saving Jewish lives by doing so?
NK’s (Attempted) Pikuach Nefesh vs. Zionism’s (sort-of?) A”Z. You (and many others) feel the latter is more Jewish?
What I am getting at here, of course, is that Zionism seems to have succeeded in implanting feelings of (artificial and heretical) “Jewish Nationalism”, even in some who do not consider themselves Zionists, to the point that it completely reverses their sensitivities and priorities.
Because if you have a bigger problem with NK than you do with someone who is “sort of” worshiping idols, then something outside of Torah (and something obviously anti-Torah) must be influencing you to think that way.
To be clear, I was never defending saying a prayer for the state. I was doing the opposite. On the idolatry issue, I don’t believe Zionism is idolatry. If you do consider it to be so, how would saying a Zionist prayer not be an act of idolatry?
Thinking something is pikuach nefesh doesn’t make it OK. The state likely thought they were somehow saving lives by bulldozing Jewish homes and destroying communities. So, holding all other things equal, to say that believing Israel has a right to exist is worse than venerating anti-Semitic tyrants is unreasonable in my opinion.
If you do consider it to be so, how would saying a Zionist prayer not be an act of idolatry?
This is a question which has been asked of Hakatan numerous times (with slight variations), and he has done nothing but dodge and evade it. It is clear as day that in many ways, halachah l’maaseh, we don’t treat Zionism as literal kefirah and avodah zarah. Obviously, regarding this, the statements Hakatan has repeated in the names of the gedolim either a) don’t exist (I don’t recall Hakatan ever quoting the actual sources), b) are not meant literally, or c) we don’t pasken like them. (I think (b) is most likely).
Hakatan has no answers.
He did quote a Brisker Rabbi in a previous thread. I suppose I should stop fueling the fire of this thread becoming a duplicate of that one. I think you’re right DaasYochid. “Were not meant literally” is the most likely reason.
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