- This topic has 68 replies, 24 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 1 month ago by .
-
Posts
-
“they do not have a serious secular studies program.”
Why is this not loshon hara?
It absolutely is either loshon hora, or, more likely, motzi shem ra.
Most Litvishe gedolim in America recognized the need for a secular studies program for mesivta aged boys, and even those who are against it would agree that if there is one, it must be a serious program.
Veltz Meshugener, I like what you said, but I just want to clarify something for other people. There is no Ner Yisrael Band. Some bachurim who know how to play an instrument may get together and practice (and even play at yeshiva events), but it is not affiliated with the Yeshiva at all.
It is loshon hara to say that a yeshiva has secular studies. By saying a yeshiva has secular studies you are saying that they waste many hours.
BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!
Then you, yourself, are guilty of speaking Loshon HaRah, as you started an entire thread complaining about taking trigonometry in high school.
The Wolf
I don’t know much about Ner Yisrael, but I can recommend a great yeshiva in the NY area: Yeshiva Darchei Torah, in Far Rockaway. Rabbi Bender is one of the greatest (if not THE greatest) mechanchim in the world. They also have a fantastic general studies department, with many AP classes offered.
@CRuzer: That’s true and I didn’t mean to give wrong information – it’s not like that Yeshiva in Monsey that has an officially supported band. But it’s an outlet that is encouraged both implicitly, by having a dedicated area of the dining room for it, and explicitly, when the boys are asked to play at Mechina events. Contrast that with a high school that I went to, where the yeshiva would not allow any musical instruments, and we would get frequent shmoozen about how terrible it is that yidden could hire goyim to play at their simchos.
It absolutely is either loshon hora, or, more likely, motzi shem ra.
Most Litvishe gedolim in America recognized the need for a secular studies program for mesivta aged boys, and even those who are against it would agree that if there is one, it must be a serious program.
The Litvishe gedolim only recognize the “need” for the secular studies as a b’dieved because the government requires it and if they didn’t offer it many parents would not send their children to a good yeshiva (with no secular studies). L’chatchcila they would agree that it would be better to have no secular studies and have longer Limudei Torah.
But there is nothing intrinsically good about a secular program, even according to the gedolim who allow it and have it for the above reasons. So, no, there is no loshon hora or msr whatsoever in being dismissive of it.
wolf, many different people have posted under this name at many different tekufos, so you can’t ask from a post that was posted severel months ago.
The Litvishe gedolim only recognize the “need” for the secular studies as a b’dieved because the government requires it and if they didn’t offer it many parents would not send their children to a good yeshiva
That may have been true initially, but after seeing the products of both types of mesivtas, they would have a secular program even if there were no government regulations or parental influence. Nowadays, kids that age can’t handle a full day of learning, and a secular education, aside from having its own value, is far better than the other ways the boys would otherwisw spend their time.
Sure, it would be great if kids could keep an intensive, 12 hour a day learning schedule. But they can’t.
There is also no valid defense for having a shoddy secular studies department. Once there is a secular studies program, whether you think there should be one or not, it should be well run and taken seriously. A shoddy secular studies program is horrible chinuch because it encourages poor work habits, and poor middos (because unless the secular studies are taken seriously, inevitably the students act disrespectfully towards the teachers. It’s also a chillul Hashem.
That may have been true initially, but after seeing the products of both types of mesivtas, they would have a secular program even if there were no government regulations or parental influence…
This is all your own speculation and feelings. Today, there are a small number of High Schools in America – particularly in Lakewood – that do not teach English. Also, many Yeshivos do try to reduce the amount of secular studies as much as possible, through knocking out the last semester of English, and a number of kids are leaving HS early to enter Bais Medrash.
Rav Chaim Segal ZT’L, the Menahel of the High School at Yeshiva Chaim Berlin was once told by Rav Shach ZT’L that if possible, he should not be teaching English studies. In Eretz Yisroel, almost all Chareidi Yeshivos do not have English at that age. Rav Aharon Kotler ZT’L made some kind of commitment not to allow English studies on the HS level in Lakewood. The exact details, and if this was actually a Takanah or merely a preference, is not clear and depends who you ask. In any case, Rabbi Elya Svei, Rosh Yeshiva of Philadelphia and a student of Rav Aharon’s, was asked why he allows English in Philly if Rav Aharon was against it. What difference can there be between the town of Lakewood NJ and Philadelphia PA? Reb Elya answered that he has no choice, and that currently, the Baalei Batim would not send their kids to the Yeshiva except under these circumstances.
Is any of this the ideal? No. It is not. Is it justified? The schools say it is, as they have no choice. But the point is not what the Jews do, its what Judaism wants. Everyone agrees that it would be a higher level, a preferable situation if we would indeed not learn English even at the HS level, at least not beyond what is necessary to survive. Nobody claims it is an ideal.
Nowadays, kids that age can’t handle a full day of learning, and a secular education, aside from having its own value, is far better than the other ways the boys would otherwisw spend their time.
Sure, it would be great if kids could keep an intensive, 12 hour a day learning schedule. But they can’t.
Who said anything about a 12 hour learning program? If the kids are already keeping an 8 hour learning program — split between Chumash, Gemorah, Meforshim, science, English literature, and history — they can handle an 8 hour learning program of Chumash, Nach, Gemorah, ??”?, and additional Meforshim.
Same hours, no secular studies, more Limudei Torah. And it consumes the same amount of time as a program with secular studies.
Bubka,
Same hours, no secular studies, more Limudei Torah.
Great in theory, but for the vast majority, it doesn’t work. They need other pursuits, and if there’s no secular studies program, they’ll find some less wholesome activities to engage in.
You also seem to ignore my point that a shoddy secular studies program is a disaster (and hence to identify a mesivta which has one, unless talking to someone considering sending to that mesivta, is surely L”H).
Even your point about replacing secular studies with more learning has nothing to do with a bad secular program, which is still, besides the other negatives, a waste of time.
If someone would post the name of a mesivta which had no secular studies program, I wouldn’t call it L”H. But there’s no rational way to defend referring to a yeshiva’s secular program as “not serious”.
Bubka -“Rav Aharon Kotler ZT’L made some kind of commitment not to allow English studies on the HS level in Lakewood. The exact details, and if this was actually a Takanah or merely a preference, is not clear and depends who you ask. In any case, Rabbi Elya Svei, Rosh Yeshiva of Philadelphia and a student of Rav Aharon’s, was asked why he allows English in Philly if Rav Aharon was against it. What difference can there be between the town of Lakewood NJ and Philadelphia PA? Reb Elya answered that he has no choice, and that currently, the Baalei Batim would not send their kids to the Yeshiva except under these circumstances.”
I’ve posted this before and I’ll post it again. It’s possible that R’ Elya said this, but not from R’ Aharon. The reason about Lakewood that some didn’t/don’t have English was that R’ Nosson -the Mashchiach was against it.
Actually R’ Aharon presided over a Din Torah regarding this. The 12th grade class of Philly didn’t want to go to English/Secular studies -so they took R’ Elya to a Din Torah by R’ Aharon. R’ Aharon Paskened that they have to go to English because they are too young to learn a whole day -they need a babysitter.
Anything else you hear coming out of this town is a false rumor. But the people here spreading it – is because it fits in their agenda.
Great in theory, but for the vast majority, it doesn’t work. They need other pursuits, and if there’s no secular studies program, they’ll find some less wholesome activities to engage in.
DY: That is your own speculation. Since there are few schools that eschew secular studies, there is little evidence for you to compare students who did not attend secular studies to those that did, and determine if one group engages in less wholesome activities than the other group.
Furthermore, as I pointed out, in Eretz Yisroel, almost all Chareidi Yeshivos do not have secular studies at the high school level. And you will be hardpressed to claim that the yeshiva boys in EY are spiritually worse off than the boys in the US. I would in fact say the opposite is the case.
At first thought I would agree with your point that a shoddy secular studies program is much worse than a competent secular studies program. (OTOH, perhaps a shoddy secular studies program takes less after-school hours/time from the students, thereby allowing them more time to engage in Limudei Kodesh.) So you might, indeed, have a point that it would be wrong to bad-mouth a yeshivas secular studies program.
DY: That is your own speculation.
No, it’s not. It’s a sentiment, which aside from its obvious merits, has been expressed by many gedolim (I know I heard it from my RY) and I recently heard it from a very well known menahel, from a mainstream chareidi mesivta (the overwhelming majority of their talmidim would never dream of going to college). The fact is, that in that mesivta, many parents feel as you do, and do not have their sons attend secular studies. The menahel stated unequivocally that those boys ended up no better than those who did attend classes; the opposite was true.
Eretz Yisroel has its own unique set of social and cultural issues, so the comparison is not valid, but your assumption that one can generalize that they are on a spiritual par with, and even exceed the spiritual level of b’nei Torah in chu”l, is most certainly debatable. Even if it were true, there are so many other variables involved that it would be ridiculous to try to prove your point from that angle.
DY: I backed what I said by sharing with you the thoughts on this issue of Rav Shach (as related to Rav Chaim Segal), Rav Ahron Kotler and Rav Elya Svei.
Specifically which Gedolim, if any, share your sentiments?
Specifically which Gedolim, if any, share your sentiments?
Some of the very same whom you erroneously claim were satisfied with a poorly run secular studies program.
R’ Elya Svei zt”l was particularly known for insisting that the secular studies program in Philadelphia Yeshiva be run properly.
No, I hadn’t cited anyone as being satisfied with a poorly run secular studies program. I was deliberating – myself – where a poorly run secular studies program fits in; I hadn’t cited anyone else on that point.
So all you can cite is Rav Elya Svei insisting that once there is a secular studies progam — which he agrees ideally should not exist but said he has it since he has no choice, as the Baalei Batim won’t send their kids to the Yeshiva without it — once you already have it, that it should be properly run. But I mostly conceded that point earlier in the conversation. The point you have been unable to find backing from any named Gedolim is that it is l’chatchila better to have a secular studies program. That is because they hold, as Rav Shach, Rav Ahron and Rav Elya, that it is a b’dieved that they have no choice about, but ideally it wouldn’t exist.
bubka -“that it is a b’dieved that they have no choice about, but ideally it wouldn’t exist.”
Let’s take on for a moment that you’re correct that they Paskened this way because it’s a B’dieved, but who says anything has changed? Your advocating no Secular studies, but who says anything has changed? They aren’t here to say the situation has changed and now we shouldn’t have secular studies.
If anything, logic dictates we should still have secular studies because of Niskatnu Hadoros.
Personally, when the issue came up of sending our youngest son to NIRC, our Rav recommended not doing so because he feels a HS boy is still a child and needs the warmth and stability of his family, and that for those of us in NYC metro, there are alternatives to OOT. More black hat mesivtas have added AP courses, probably in response to parental pressures. And now that there are an abundance of “alternative” college programs, guys do have that option. For a pure 50/50 split of quality in both parts of the day I’d say Yeshiva Toras Chaim in Lawrence. Bottom line, the quality of the secular (and limeudi kodesh for that matter) is only as good as the teacher and/or Rebbe. It can vary widely from class to class and year to year.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.