- This topic has 67 replies, 19 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 9 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Hi I’m new at the cr I had a question that maybe u can help me here with money was being collected by me for a teacher who got engages??? so when there was noone around I left the $50 from that day under 5 seforim in my locker. The NXT day it was gone my locker was obviously opened by someone etc so I went to the office they told me to talk to the assisstant principal who further sen me to principal of hole skwl who basically told me he can’t do anything we shod use locks or not leaving anything in lockers so I said number 1 we were told we r not allowed to hav locks number two lately thing hav been stolen by ppl noone knows who (I only found this out when somatic was stolen from me) like calculated and sometimes seforim ad books now wat am I supposed to do I hav to make up from somewhere $50?
put money into tzedakah for Rabbi Meir Baalhannes and then say that you did that in honor to find it…
wow. good question.
you should ask a shaila just to double check if you have to make it up, or all or part, etc
When you give tzedaka, be sure to ask the whereabouts of your lost punctuation too.
superme,
please use punctuation. (my eyes hurt)
Hi I’m new at the cr I had a question that maybe u can help me here with money was being collected by me for a teacher who got engages??? so when there was noone around I left the $50 from that day under 5 seforim in my locker. The NXT day it was gone my locker was obviously opened by someone etc so I went to the office they told me to talk to the assisstant principal who further sen me to principal of hole skwl who basically told me he can’t do anything we shod use locks or not leaving anything in lockers so I said number 1 we were told we r not allowed to hav locks number two lately thing hav been stolen by ppl noone knows who (I only found this out when somatic was stolen from me) like calculated and sometimes seforim ad books now wat am I supposed to do I hav to make up from somewhere $50?
Please spend less time collecting money and more time studying English.
haifa! it’s a kid! stop!
Haifa, that comment I find disgusting.
Superme, I am not sure how to do because it is not allowed to post personal info on the CR, but I would like to send you 50$. I would be honored to do that as a gift, so that you have peace of mind. Then you should ask a shaila, it is a good question, much more worth than 50$.
leave the poor child alone. haifa- go away. to op- its a toughy, best of luck.
Daniella – these are posts of yours from other threads:
But you are suggesting we give 20-30$ every day to anyone who asks? Did you give out money like that, when you were well-off? If so, how many times were you taken advantage of?
Another one:
I am sorry, we all have an obligation to take care of the people in our communities, the people whose heartbreaking story we know first-hand, the people who in the past gave generously and now have fallen onto hard times. We can hardly do that, in the current economy. May I dare suggesting everyone is in the same situation and this is why no one has been able to help?
I don’t mean anything bad here, but isn’t that a little change of tune from your comment above – I am not sure how to do because it is not allowed to post personal info on the CR, but I would like to send you 50$. I would be honored to do that as a gift, so that you have peace of mind?
Just wondering!!
Maybe it wasn’t really fifty dollars, but five dollars? After all, it seems clear you’re not sure where a period (or decimal) should go, so maybe you were wrong? Maybe it was fifty cents?
As haifagirl said, please study English some more. I’m sorry about the situation you’re in, but that’s not an excuse for the grammar (or lack thereof) in your post.
Yekke, thank you for the attention you devote to carefully reading my posts, but I do with my money what I please, thank you. If I feel like giving someone a gift, this does not mean I have the obligation I have to give a gift to everyone, much less do I have to give a gift to whom you tell me. Please do send something to the other poster, if you like. Feel free to send 5000, I won’t object, I will be glad for him – and for you as well. Shabbat Shalom
Wow. People can be so nasty.
one comment on spelling was enough people!
Please don’t spell sweet as sweat I can tolerate poor spelling but some words just conjure up nasty images so please be more selective of which words you mangle. Thanks.
If I understood the question properly, you knew that things have been stolen from lockers, yet kept the money there anyhow. That seems very irresponsible to me. Probably, al pi halachah, you would be responsible even if that wasn’t the case, since you left it in an unlocked place.
So, the way I see it, you have to find a way to earn $50 to pay back. Do you babysit? Do you have Chanukah gelt or other money?
You might want to ask a shailah if you are indeed obligated, but keep in mind that your friends probably wouldn’t be too thrilled if you don’t make good, even if technically you didn’t have to.
As far as the grammar and spelling, please keep in mind that sometimes not proofreading your posts can make parts of them incomprehensible.
Tell your father to ask his Rav or posek or better yet get his number and call him yourself and ask him. We are NOT poskim here and although there are some people who know lots of Halacha here, the policy is that with all halachic questions contact your LOR (local Orthodox Rabbi).
We talked about your story with my family, may we ask if you are a boy or a girl and if you are bar/bat mitzvah. And again we would be very happy to send you 50$, which actually, I suggested even before talking to them. See, I once was an unpaid shomeret for a chiloni (it was cash in a purse) and it was stolen under my eyes and I did not even notice or realize – I was so shocked, it must have been a skilled thief – I offered to pay the money, especially since I saw he had a very upset face, but he refused, said the halacha is not so (a chiloni, let me remark again); I replied I wish to give as a gift, but he told me he does not even want to hear about it and left. In case he reads YWN and recognizes the story, I have set the money aside for him and either me or my children / grandchildren will discuss it with Eliyahu Hanavi in good time.
Back to your story, it does not work to call, say, my rabbi. Only your Rabbi can pasken for you, and even if he could not be available for whatever reason, another Rabbi has to know who is your Rabbi before he can decide.
One solution which I was taught, if you do not wish to talk to a Rabbi and tell the story, is that, regardless of what the halacha is, you restore the 50$ whether you are obligated or not, with the intention that if you are not obligated, it’s a gift, and the intention you don’t consider it tzedaka, just a gift you are willingly giving to – whomever. (I assume you are bar or bat mitzvah.) Of course in a similar way, someone can send you the money, willingly and in good heart as a gift to whomever (perhaps to you, perhaps to the thief, perhaps to the teacher, perhaps to your friends who gave for the gift, or to anyone else), we give it away forever because it makes us happy to do so.
The other option is that you tell all the facts to your father or to your rabbi, both about the stolen money and about the availability of cameras, and all other details, and then you do what they tell you.
Daniela, where do get the idea that a rav can’t answer shaila without knowing the identity of the shoel ‘s rav?
Superme, here’s the number for a reliable monetary halacha hotline: 877-845-8455. Or, you can call 516-239-2500, and press the extension for monetary questions.
i don’t think you’d have to look, but the principal should, and should privately try to get the $ back then return it to you. Although i’d assume the cameras overwrite and that day’s videoing is no longer available…
this is getting so confusing w superme and saysme…
DaasYochid I am not sure how a rav can possibly determine, without asking them directly, if the people from the school (principal, teachers, rebbeim etc) saw the videos or did not, and either way, what was their reasoning. There may also be other info we are not aware of (e.g. there exist fake cameras, with a LED, which are sold as deterrents, sometimes people buy a few real cameras along with a bunch of identical dummies). If these points are irrelevant to the shaila, or if there is a way to know them without asking, can you please explain.
One might think that, regardless of whose money it was at the time it was stolen, the school is responsible, because the OP used the lockers as they’re supposed to be used, the school does not want them locked and being hiding place of unwanted material, so they request lockers are kept open and provide security cameras, they are in charge of security, and 50$ is a reasonable amount one can expect to be brought to school in cash, occasionally. If so, one may think, the school should shell out the 50$ and after that, it’s between them and someone else, if they should look at the video or not, and what to do. Instead they are claiming the OP is responsible for the loss, and so it seems to me it’s necessary to listen to what they have to say.
DaasYochid I am not sure how a rav can possibly determine,…
If the rav thinks there are relevant questions to ask, he will. Most rabbonim are not, in fact, experts in Choshen Mishpat, which is why these hotlines, under the auspices of well known and respected poskim, are so valuable. Obviously, these poskim (Rabbis Kohn and Forst) feel that there are situations in which one may ask a shailah anonymously, otherwise they wouldn’t allow it.
the OP used the lockers as they’re supposed to be used
To keep cash? Doubtful. At the most, it would make the school (if such an entity can be held responsible) a gorem (indirect causer) and not chayav in beis din. And I don’t think it would even be a grama.
Instead they are claiming the OP is responsible for the loss, and so it seems to me it’s necessary to listen to what they have to say.
Indeed, ask a shailah and don’t rely on anonymous posters.
Because it wasn’t yours, you were obligated to watch it properly, and in my opinion, you didn’t. You really should be asking a shailah, though, and not listening either to what I say or to what your emotions say.
All I can say is that I sincerely hope that you make up for your sub-par English skills with hasmasdah and chochmah in Torah, and that you are spending time learning Torah rather than grammar. If so, much hatzlachah! If not, work on your grammar, man.
dy did post 2 numbers for you
first number is the business halacha institute. second one is Halacha hotline of five towns
DaasYochid
All I know about superme is what she posts on this forum, but I have the impression she is in a complicated situation. This 50$ episode has to be understood in a context of difficult relationships with other students, with teachers, with her parents. She needs IMHO to talk a Rabbi who not only can pasken about 50$ after hearing the relevant facts in regards to this episode, but who can also simultaneously have her trust, be detached enough she feels safe she can tell him the whole story (and who knows how many other stories she would like to tell) without others hearing about how she talked to Rabbi XYZ etc etc, and yet be somehow in touch with the school, someone in a position to improve relationships and whom everyone respects. There is much more at stake than 50$.
Superme
Be Hatzlacha and please let us know the teshuva when you get one
superme: Since lockers are the property of the school and the school specifically instructed students to not put locks on the locker in order for the school to excercise their absolute right to conduct locker searches, as a result it is the school’s responsibility should items come up missing. Unless the school specified IN WRITING that no student may keep anything in a locker overnight OR no money may be kept in a locker at any time, they are responsible for maintaining the safety and property of all students.
Therefore, unless the school had the above clause in writing, YOU are not liable for the money.
Call Rav Dovid Cohen at Gvul Yaavetz in Flatbush. He is R’ Choshen Mishpat.
Artchill,
Interesting sevara, although it sounds a bit far fetched to me to say that the school is implicitly taking responsibility. Even if it were true, I could hear it for textbooks, which belong in a locker, but not for money.
Supreme, you can ask for the name of the Rabbi you are speaking to (“May I please ask with whom I am speaking”). Also, keep in mind that the answer you receive is relevant to you alone, since the other parties are not there.
Daniela, the first step is her monetary obligation. If she is not obligated, she must consider whether it’s worth upsetting her friends, or pay anyhow. You are 100% right, though, that she needs someone to speak to, especially based on the other thread.
It seems to me that in schools, and specifically in that school, it is customary to collect such amounts for gifts to teachers in a happy occasion, and for similar amounts. I do not think occasionally keeping 50$ in a locker goes beyond normal use. Also, it seems to me the responsibility of the school is not indirect, but there is more to it: the school is somehow aware of the possibility / likelyhood of thieves, that’s why they have cameras, yet they demand the lockers have no locks. This is obviously their choice and their convenience, as they might instead request all students who choose to put locks, to give a copy of the key and its locker number, which then is attached to a keychain along with all the other keys, and when not in use, are kept in a safe place. The lockers being open are not consequence of an intrinsic fact such as the school wanting to check the lockers which we may argue is a part of chinuch, but instead, it seems to me it derives from their convenience to have them left open, and not wanting to be bothered with keys.
Yes, they could have a master key, but the fact that that they don’t doesn’t make them responsible.
I’m not really taking sides, but this is how i feel: I don’t think it is the school’s fault because: Did they really demand that you not put locks on your locker? And even if they did they are not responsible for things stolen from them. Also, it wasn’t necessarily a student; it could have been a janitor. Also, I do believe that it is a huge hassle to look through the cameras, if they can even do it at all. (My school doesn’t look through their cameras even when asked.) So all in all, I don’t think the school has to pay. Maybe they should speak to the janitors? Or you could, in a non accusatory way. Regarding you, I think you should talk to the other people who contributed the money and see how they feel about it. Do they want you to pay? Anyhow, your pretty much stuck. 🙁 I’d probably pay if it were me. Well, hope it turns out well in the end. Good luck!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.