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I am going to make this brief and hope that someone will have an idea.
We are a BT/FFB family with 4 children. Income < $100K. No vacations. No restaurants. We are meticulous budgetters. But, we usually end up with only $100 to $200 left at the end of each month. Specialized parnasa; so we are stuck where we are geographically (outside of NY). Our children have always been homeschooled because we have felt that they would receive a better Jewish education, and secular one too, in a home environment. We still believe that to be the case through 8th grade or so. Obviously, financial state is part of this equation. But…
Our 14 year old desperately needs to be in an environment where he is away from siblings and can prove himself. He has yiras shamayim, has a lot of Torah knowledge, and is good in mathematical subjects. But, he has difficulty reading. He begs and pleads to go to away to yeshiva. Local schools, when approached in casual conversation, have said explicitly “Please do not apply.” The reason is money.
We have spoken to several people in other cities and each of them have told us that there is no way they can help. Again, money.
We have tried multiple things to get more parnasa like driving Uber. But, at best, that yields a couple of hundred dollars per month after expenses. The yeshivas we have spoken with are asking for around $2000 per month.
Any suggestions? Our poor son is getting frustrated with his situation and it is showing (in the home only, B”H) through his attitude and demeanor.
We spoke to a rav in our community about this and he simply said that our failure to send him to school proves that we are not serious about Yiddishkeit. He is *SO* wrong. Help…
Out of curiosity how much do you have in your budget to help pay tuition?
When schools ask you how much you would pay what was your response?
Also try and picture where the schools are coming from. Your child has never been in school, they have no way of knowing his level of education, or how he will behave. Coupled with no tuition I can see why they are hesitant.
Also, did your Rav really say that?
Sounds like a really suspect thing for someone with genuine torah values to say.
Yeshivas are very expensive and its a major problem without much solution. IMO if a solution is not found it might destroy the jewish community
You rav is wrong, he cannot expect you to spend money you dont have
Dont be so sure that Dorming is a good idea for your son, it might work for some, but it doesnt work for others , some kids do get homesick and are not really mature enough to live away from home.
Most of the yeshivas that have dorm do not teach secular education. The more modern schools that teach good secular education do not have dorms. The only except might be MTA, but that is very expensive
I give up
I’m not going to start
I assume we’re talking about a yeshiva (not an MO HS that charges 20k)- With your financials you can get a yeshiva to reduce tuition to $500 a month. No one is going to give you a contract for $100. Just voice your concern, you showed them your finances already, no doubt, and sign the tuition contract. Try you best to pay it, when you can’t, they have already been forewarned. They won’t kick you out. You’ll deal with next year, next year. It’s going to be tough, somewhat humiliating, but they will let your son stay, you’ll again try to make payments etc…
I don’t see any other solution. This is what many many parents that are struggling are doing.
I don’t know your hashkafa, but many boys do well at ner israel. Do you want to stay out of town?
$3000-$4000 a year including room and board is impossible. Not trying to be discuraging, but unfortuantly its the truth. They dont even charge that amount without room and board which adds significantly to the cost
First of all, kudos to you for looking out for the emotional and spiritual good of your son, even if money is tight.
Most Yeshiva high schools charge about 10 – 15 thousand dollars for tuition. (This is not so that they can make exorbitant profits – it just costs a lot to run a school.) However, my impression is that most schools will settle for between 4 – 6 thousand in a case of legitimate financial need. However, if you’d like people to list specific schools where they think this might be the case, it might be a good idea to try to describe what type of background your son is coming from and what type of school he’d like to attend.
Assuming theroshyeshiva is correct that you can get scholarships to subsidize everything but $500/month, there is a solution. You could ask him to earn the money himself. If he is homeschooling now, he probably has some time on his hands. If there are pet sitting opportunities within walking distance, he might be able to make $1000/month on 2-3 pet sitting jobs per day. He could sleep in people’s houses to take care of their pets (if they trust him) for around $50/night. There’s other types of jobs, but for a 14 year old who is O.K. with long walks outside in all types of weather, this is probably the best.
You might want to point out to him that he is probably going to need a tutor (at least in the beginning) because there won’t be many boys who want a chavrusa who has “difficulty reading.” What’s more, it’s inevitable that one of the immature teenagers who are his classmates are going to tease him about this. Will he be able to handle that?
Has anyone figured out how much annual income is needed to support a frum way of life, i.e., kosher food, yeshivas, 4 or more children, parents’ time off for all holidays, to name just a few frum expenses. I have not done the math, but I am convinced that less than $200,000 per year will keep a frum family in a very small house, with little savings, and no money for their children to attend a secular college. And 10 – 20 years from now, lack of secular college education will likely mean no employment opportunities for today’s frum children. I see it as a serious problem and a serious threat to the current interpretation of the Torah – there will be too few Jews who can afford to live it. I don’t see a solution, but I think the problem is genuine and will bite us before we know it.
I once wrote a long one on this. Maybe a bit too busy these days…
The gist of it was something to the effect of that HaShem, who has provided for us in the past, with or without an advanced secular college education, can do so quite easily in the future. For as long as there are humans treading this here earth.
?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????.
Might I remind you, He is still in the driver’s seat!
What some people do is send their kid to a regular yeshiva and then rent a room for them from someone in the neighborhood, but rents in NYC are very expensive and this alone might cost you $500-$1000 a month depending on living conditions
I dont think Chassidic schools (except for Chabad) would take him
BTW Its not clear to me if your son needs special Ed? If he needs some sort of special ed those schools cost $50,000
We live in an information society unlike previous generations where most incomes were earned from manual labor which didnt require much education.Today with the information society you need more education to get those jobs and earn income
We spoke to a rav in our community about this and he simply said that our failure to send him to school proves that we are not serious about Yiddishkeit. He is *SO* wrong. Help…
If you went to your rav saying “Please help me get my son into a yeshiva” and he responded with “You’re obviously not serious about Yiddishkeit because your son isn’t in a yeshiva…” then you need a new rav.
Is there any possibility that he misunderstood you or you misunderstood his response?
The Wolf
Dershteygingyid, I agree with you. A 14 year old frum boy belongs in a yeshiva environment. Wishing you success in finding the right place.
Depending on what your son is like socially, it might be easier to find a smaller yeshiva where he would feel more comfortable as well as work along with you financially and academically while he adjusts to a school setting. Possibly he can do work in the school (kitchen help?) or tutoring a younger child if hes good in math or another particular area to help cover the cost of tuition. Depending on the area, you may be able to find someone for him to board at (also for exchange of a service if applicable). You didnt mention if the reading difficulty is in general or only with English or kriah or the level of difficulty but if necessary, it’s probably easier to work on before hes in a completely new environment.
I’m not sure this fits your situation specifically but I believe there is a Dr. Rosenshein (?) who helps to place children who need schools, but I dont have contact info.
Much Hatzlacha
DerShteygingYid – Take out a second mortgage.
I understand that you make less than $100K (how much less) and have meticulous budgets. You can’t expect a Yeshiva to take someone who will need a lot of support (homeschooled children almost always do, even (and especially) if they are brilliant, because they are not used to a classroom environment) without getting paid for it. If you are making close to $100K (not $20K) and have no tuition payments, you have been better off financially than almost everyone else with four children who does pay tuition.
That’s reality.
Without knowing your exact budget, I can’t tell you where you can find money, but I personally know many people who live with more children on much less (closer to 20K). With only one tuition, you should be able to find more. Perhaps if you post your monthly budget people here can make suggestions. For example, many people paying tuition are not thinking about retirement. You may be putting away 10% or more in an IRA or 401K that can go to the Yeshiva.
theroshyeshiva – Once you are lying, why not just lie and say you will pay the whole thing, and give them a large donation on top of it?
nfgo3 – Two working parents. One who works in a Yeshiva, and whose salary goes to tuition (with tuition breaks offered to teachers, should be enough) and the other parent makes 60K – 80K as an accountant. Alternatively the wife can have a similar job.
Sorry, it was either edit or delete. – 29
Lives off the beaten path but walking distance to shuls in NYC, or out of town.
For example, looking at Zillow:
1621 E 51st street, Brooklyn – 449K
13 Merril Pl. Inwood NY – 310K
88 Livingston Ave, Staten Island, NY – 459K
225 Van Houten Ave, Passaic, NJ – 359K
There are many others. Yes, they are not Ave. J and 16th, but you can do it if you have the will to do so.
If the OP in this topic is accurate, it is very depressing. If the responses are accurate, I should go buy a faster vehicle to race off the derech.
Fortunately, I don’t think the responses are accurate. You should get in touch with Ner Yisroel – they are perhaps the best combination of a stable institution with a diverse student body. They understand that it is their mission to facilitate Torah, not to sell it at a markup to the people who could have it anyway (and then expect kavod to boot). They are meticulous about tuition, but IME experience tend to be reasonable as well.
Gavra_at_work: Unfortunately, those two options are off of the table. The mortgage debt to equity ratio (LTV) is at the maximum that the banks will allow. The days of 125% home equity loans are gone. — Retirement and college savings are also zero.
So where is all the money going? Huge student loans? Parental support? Had DWI and huge auto insurance bill? Lawsuit?
You should be making it plus saving, if you are making near 100K, with no tuition payments and living out of town.
gavra – i am always surprised by how unaware people are of what it means to live without money. I hope you thank Gd every moment for your bliss (no sarcasm, i mean that). Your comment about a second mortgage is the exact modern day equivelent of “let them eat cake”
the less objective message about whether or not a child is deserving of an education he can’t afford is a whole other subject that i dont think we would ever really agree upon or, as you have mentioned in past threads (at least i think it was you), family planning, which i never before had heard a frum yid suggest.
DSY – i am somewhat surprised that you got the responses you did. maybe it is my oot naivete but i never heard of a yeshiva saying not to apply without funds. They may tell you to apply and promise funds you dont have and make you sign forms that you agree to raise the funds that you don’t have (happens often), but it is sad if true.
On the other hand, many institutions have closed their doors in the face of boys who are a bit too weak or who need “too much support” because the schools don’t have the funds to support them and they figure that absolves them of trying.
Applications are sent in separately from financial papers. Applications should be accepted and processed and the student should be accepted before the finances are even brought up to an institution. Get paperwork together to verify the boy’s current levels, samples of his work, letters of reference from chavrusas or similar and send in some applications. You will bring up finances when you get your acceptance letter.
I know that minimum tuition here for those who cannot pay is about $3000 a year and our yeshivos don’t charge separately for dorm or food. There are options.
SY
I think alot of the leadership is really clueless on the issue of the high cost of yeshiva tutiton, I really think they wing it and have no clue about the real costs of yeshiva tutions. Many of them send their kids to yeshiva for free and really cant comprehend inability to pay the tutions and dont understand that so called “Luxuries” and not really luxuries
“So where is all the money going? Huge student loans? Parental support? Had DWI and huge auto insurance bill? Lawsuit?”
WOW!! have you NO social boundaries?! Wow! I can’t even believe the mods let that thru! do you often take people who are down and out and kick their teeth in? Wow!
zdad – no, i disagree. i think the leadership understands and I don’t believe they are all sending their kids anywhere for free. A menahel here in chicago may have free or subsidized tuition for his children in his own school but then they all move on to high school and yeshivos where they owe tuition just like everyone else.
no, i don’t think it is the leadership. Although i don’t find it to be the case in my community, the more i read these threads the more i believe it is the middle and upper class who have members who have no idea. “let them eat cake,” indeed.
FYI
My auto insurance is fairly cheap and I pay about $1500 a year
Kosher food is expensive even in NYC
Maybe in Chicago its different than NY.
Middle Class does not mean rich and that you can afford insane amounts of tution. The housing alone in NYC is insane again. In my area houses start at $600,000 and its not even a rich area.
I was at a symposium about the high cost of tutiton and some Rav gave mussar about money people spend on “gashmus” and then told him how expensive it was to live in our community (He lives here too) and he basically had no answer and blamed the real estate
I was talking about peoples attitudes, not their ability to pay. you commented that the leadership is unaware, i was responding that i think the unawareness belongs to people of certain financial standing, not the leadership.
nfgo3 – not sure what salaries are everywhere but a Rebbe can make $33k-$40k and the tuition breaks are usually less then he would get as a low income family. (minimum is about $3000 per kid, teacher’s break is often 50% of 10k). Also, the morah’s are paid closer to $10k-$25k.
As i have stated in other threads, i am not opposed to secular college for those who can handle it spiritually, but i do disagree that not having college is putting anyone at a disadvantage. There are a huge amount of individuals that have college degrees but no jobs are available. And many, many of the kids with the street smarts grew up barely scraping together a hs diploma and are making a lot of money in administraive, sales, real estate positions. You need to believe that your PATH must be chosen based on what is good for your relationship to Gd, and your result will be chosen by Gd.
SY
The Rebbes dont get a tuition break, they get FREE tuition as do the children of the secretaries and other workers at the schools
zd – that may be the case in the schools you know of, that is not the case here at all and i would certainly not assume or speak for places i dont know about. it was the old rule but hasnt been that way for twenty years.
Yes, you don’t get it. But, don’t worry, you’re not alone by any means.
I apologize, I really don’t see how the numbers work out. Perhaps if you explained to the school how little you really live with (no matter how much you actually show on your 1040), they will make an exception.
Syag: The OP said she/he makes “Income < $100K”. The median household income in the US is somewhere in the 54K area, and median salary about $44K. There are no tuition payments. As I said above, I simply don’t get it, i.e. where the money is going. Unless by “Income < $100K” they mean closer to the poverty limit, which is a different issue. I have to assume the OP has extreme and unusual circumstances that they are unwilling to disclose, but that will hurt them in justifying financial support.
as you have mentioned in past threads (at least i think it was you), family planning, which i never before had heard a frum yid suggest.
As DY can tell you, I consider the term “Frum” as a pejorative. 🙂
We can discuss “family planning” on a different thread, if the mods let you do it.
Finally, if you believe that the OP’s child is by definition deserving of a Yeshiva education, might I suggest that you either provide it or pay for it. I’m sure the Mods can get your spare $60,000 over to the OP.
The Rebbes dont get a tuition break, they get FREE tuition as do the children of the secretaries and other workers at the schools
Depends on the school.
One more point: I am aware of a couple with seven children who live in a one bedroom apartment so that the father can stay in Klei Kodesh. The schools understand that type of sacrifice, and I hope they do for the OP as well.
Syag: …I have to assume the OP has extreme and unusual circumstances that they are unwilling to disclose, but that will hurt them in justifying financial support.
or maybe they don’t feel like sharing it online, or maybe it is irrelevent because that isn’t really what their quesiton was.
As DY can tell you, I consider the term “Frum” as a pejorative. 🙂
🙂
We can discuss “family planning” on a different thread, if the mods let you do it.
i can assure you i have no interest in such a discussion. it would depress me greatly and is too individualized to be a discussion.
Finally, if you believe that the OP’s child is by definition deserving of a Yeshiva education, might I suggest that you either provide it or pay for it. I’m sure the Mods can get your spare $60,000 over to the OP.
considering tuition is about $13k-20k, Im not sure what i would be sending $60k for.
Oddly enough, I don’t disagree with your ideas of personal responsibility and cautios approach to what should be subsidized, but i do strongly disagree with the overlying (a touch louder than underlying) tone that i perceive in how far you take it. For example, not relying on bitachon for parnassa does not mean that there is no bitachon in parnassa. Believing people should pay their own way when they can, cut corners at all ends and put tuition first does not mean lock up your wallet so tight that you overscrutinize everyone else’s place in life to decide if they are worthy of the pennies Gd gave you to distribute (I am not being literal, I am trying to explain how I hear your posts)
I have said in many old threads that my husband and I were willing to live on one salary so that we could raise our own kids. We lived on less than $50k with six kids. no camp. one car. no vacations. no restaurants. no food stamps. but when i needed help for tuition, i truly believed that as humiliating as it was to ask for help, i was offering the community some wonderful, torah true, children with beautiful middos in exchange. if money is the only commodity then you may be right. I believe that some people give money and others have other things to give.
Maybe elsewhere they are more generous than NY. In NY they are brutal when you are asked for discounts, they even ask how much money you spend on clothes before they give it to you
Camp is not a Luxury. The kids cannot sit around the house and be bored all summer
or maybe they don’t feel like sharing it online, or maybe it is irrelevent because that isn’t really what their quesiton was.
The question was “Any suggestions?”. One way would be to crowdsource the budget so that savings can be found and paid to the Yeshiva. You don’t want it to be public? There are organizations that can help with squeezing more out of a budget.
considering tuition is about $13k-20k, Im not sure what i would be sending $60k for.
Four years of High School.
To your final point, I don’t disagree with you, as per my short post above (seven children, one bedroom). Had the OP said he was living on less than 40K, that would make more sense. Any Yeshiva Administrator who would see someone making 90K (Income < $100K) and only one tuition, would expect more than $200 a month. If denied, they would rightfully suspect that the parent is trying to stiff the school. Hence my suggestion to the OP to explain or invite the administrator into their apartment so he can see for himself that the family is living a life of Mistapek B’muat, even if the 1040 doesn’t show it.
Regarding cutting corners, If you go through my posts, I’m a strong advocate of giving to schools before anything else, recognizing there are those responsible people who just can’t hold up to the impossible burden of tuition.
That all being said, the Rabbaim need to eat and the electricity needs to be paid. We can’t have an automatic “right” of Yeshiva education without taxation powers. There are ways (Chazal had a good one in Kesubos 49B) to create additional funding from parents, but they are not politically correct. End result, Yeshivos need the money.
Camp is not a Luxury. The kids cannot sit around the house and be bored all summer
Mommy camp. Been there, done that. Perfectly acceptable.
Depends how old the kids are, backyard camp works for 3 or 4 year olds, Does not work for 10 year olds
Depends how old the kids are, backyard camp works for 3 or 4 year olds, Does not work for 10 year olds
Mommy camp != backyard.
our kids went to mommy camp and mommy and daddy camp forever. If you are fun enough, you don’t age out.
The question was “Any suggestions?”
ya know that is certainly a cool lesson on people and their inner thoughts. He spoke about his desperation to have a kid in yeshiva because the doors have been closed for monetary reasons and to me “any suggestions” meant “Can anyone suggest how I can get my child into yeshiva for the sake of his spiritual and emotional health when most don’t want us for financial reasons” and you heard “Can anyone help us come up with money to pay for tuition so my son can go to yeshiva”
cute observation.
the Rabbaim need to eat and the electricity needs to be paid….Yeshivos need the money.
10000% true. I just don’t agree with you that allowing people to learn torah in a torah environment that they cant afford will have an impact on that. I see them as very very separate issues.
10000% true. I just don’t agree with you that allowing people to learn torah in a torah environment that they cant afford will have an impact on that. I see them as very very separate issues.
The problems are people cannot afford the tuition and the Yeshivas cannot afford to give many discounts, especially to somone from outside the community (Sometimes someone from the community will get a break over someone from outside)
This was never answered by the OP, but it is really important, Does the kid need special ed
This is a very important fact, because of the kid cannot handle a regular yeshiva for sure most wont take him
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