need kiruv advice

M- maybe it’s really a combination. They sense that it’s true but they need to be comfortable emotionally as well. Remember, people are complex. Almost all (or all) of our actions have a variety of motivations and are never done completely for the “right” reasons. And there is nothing wrong with that. We are human after all! And we have to involve both our brains and our emotions in everything we do.

I think the important thing is to make sure that there is some intellect/concept of truth involved. Otherwise, it is nothing more than brainwashing and if something more appealing comes along, it’s over.

I would like to briefly answer M’s comment about whether we are really doing kiruv or just pressing psychological buttons.

Like yichusdik, I came back to teshuva through Aish HaTorah and was very close to R’ Noach’s entire family, while not having much contact to R’ Noach himself, practically living in their house for close to 2 years.

My comment to M is that Aish HaTorah is a very logic-based approach to Torah and there are very reasoned and thought out answers and understandings of Torah and why we keep Torah that he had very carefully thought through during his lifetime and equipped his talmidim with this knowledge while they were learning with him. There is solid, unshakeable emes to Torah, if a person is willing to see it, think through the issues and, if they are willing to make the commitment, become frum through this. If a thinking person had their psychological buttons pressed (as was suggested by M) by reform or hindu or some other “religion”, and the person looked into the depths of that belief system, what would they find? Emes? There isn’t anything to support those religions.

I was first introduced to yiddishkeit through the Discovery program that he started, which provides many glimpses into the Torah and its truth and, while not convincing in and of themselves, spur a thinking person on to learn more in depth to prove or disprove their truths to him/herself. I hope I am being clear. I went to a Discovery seminar and my pintele Yid was awakened. I felt that my life was being changed by the 48 hours or less that I had been sitting there absorbing bits and pieces of emes.

One of the most convincing comments I heard/learned was, what other religion claims that there were 600,000 people present when G-d came and spoke with them and presented them with the 10 commandments. By any other religion, Divine revelation is to the individual (usually the leader) not to the entire population. Nobody can disprove a person who says “G-d appeared to me in my dream last night”. But when a whole population of people claim the same thing, how can such a statement be disproved? If such a statement had no basis, somewhere along the way it would have faded away since most people knew it was basically a lie and had just been made up by a few people or some such story. But it hasn’t and we are still claiming the same thing – not that we heard G-d on Mount Sinai, but that our ancestors were there.

I had the fortune of coming from a family of BTs that had come back through Chabad, but it had not appealed to me and I had not done teshuva until my brain was convinced that it was true. However, because I could see, as someone pointed out above, that there were normal people (my family and many of their friends) who were keeping Torah, then I wasn’t frightened off by what the commitment to keep it would involve.

I may not be the typical story of someone who goes to these kinds of programs in that I became charedi from their program (their ultimate goal obviously), but it is possible and I am sure that the people who run these and other kiruv programs are all hoping that the people they encounter will become the frumest that they are able to, given each person’s circumstances. The sky’s the limits.

Thank you Nechomah for your thoughtful, interesting, and touching answer.

“But at the same time I myself am dating guys who are close to being OTD or actually OTD so there is a contradiction going on.”

I’m sure that contradiction is painful for you. May Hashem help you resolve it in accordance with His Will and give you the joy of a resolved contradiction.

Good Luck!

Yekke2 -nicely expressed!

Nechomah – Though I was involved as a teacher, volunteer, chavrusa and host for Aish for many years, I am not blessed to have come to it as a Baal Tshuva. Though each of us in our own way is or should be chozer bitshuva on an ongoing basis, I grew up and was educated in a frum environment and community.

Lilmod – You and I have different approaches to Kiruv, though there may be some intersectionality. One thing I have moved away from is absolute statements. I gave my opinion on what is needed to be successful and whole as someone involved in macro-kiruv. It is based on experience and on the wisdom of others whose whole lives are immersed in kiruv. But I don’t assume there is no path other than what I suggested.
You wrote – “Rebshidduch’s situation is a macro-kiruv situation and she should not be involved until she has some of the above qualifications. She should certainly wait until she has attended seminary for a MINIMUM of one year.”

I broadly agree, but I don’t know about minimums and maximums. I do know she needs a mentor, and not an anonymous one in the coffee room like you or me.

You wrote “However, there is something important to point out. I attended an Aish HaTorah seminar at which the presenter made sure to deliniate the differences between Aish haTorah’s hashkafa and mainstream Yeshivish hashkafa. If you have been involved with Aish HaTorah, I am sure that you are aware of those differences.”

Having had the opportunity of learning and working throughout the broad spectrum of the observant world, from chareidi to the left fringes of orthodoxy, And working professionally in Jewish communities beyond the observant elements of it, I am more than aware of the differences, be they subtle or black and white, between the many beautiful elements that make up the whole. My experience and my friendship with dozens of people who are at once both Yeshivish and Aish-involved (or involved with other kiruv organizations that also have a different taam) tells me that the strategic differences between the yeshivish and Aish hashkafahs are very small, though the tactical approaches are often quite different

“If Rav Noach Weinberg zatsal was your Rav, then you can and probably should follow him. But please understand that most Frum Jews will and probably should choose to follow the mainstream Yeshivish hashkafa (if in fact there are differences).

Kiruv has been a part of my life for a long time. For part of that time I was involved through the Aish framework, and particularly as it related to how to teach and be mekarev, I learned and used R’ Noach’s mehalech and reached out to him for answers to questions as they came up. I wouldn’t characterize him any more broadly than that as my “Rav”, though the respect I had and still have for him is enormous.

I take issue with your use and implied definition of “frum” Jews. You don’t have a monopoly on the term, specific or colloquially used. Neither do I. I choose to use it, as many if not most do, as a loose definition most akin to “observant” which goes far beyond the Yeshivish world both towards the chassidish world and towards the centrist or modern orthodox world. (BTW, I dislike all of these labels. observant works for me). I don’t think, thus, that “most frum Jews should follow the mainstream Yeshivish hashkafa.” is either true or even desirable. As I and many, many others define it, that sounds presumptuous. Within the machne of shomrei mitzvos, elu voelu divrei elokim chayim.

Lilmod, the following statement of yours truly troubled me. “Rav Noach Weinberg zatsal was a big Tzaddik, but I’m not sure that he should be quoted as though he was the Gadol Hador and everyone has to follow him.”

As many who have been here longer than you can attest, I’m rarely interested in the My Gadol is bigger than your Gadol absurdity that often takes place here. I question the entire structure that has been built up around these manhigim, where access is restricted, askonim are paramount, and its impossible to know even if a letter or pashkevcil has actually even been signed by the quoted Gadol.

I certainly did not and do not make any assertion as to Rav Noach’s suitability for that description. It makes not an iota of difference to my incredible esteem and respect for him. Lilmod, he should be quoted as an expert, if not the foremost expert, in kiruv in the last 60 years. As I wrote, no one, with the possible exception of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, had a better understanding of the needs of those who are rechokim, or the capacity of the observant world to bring them closer to Torah. Whether that makes him a Gadol hador in your eyes is irrelevant to me and to the discussion.

But as such, I quote him as among the highest experts and Torah authorities on the subject of kiruv. If you want to be involved in kiruv, it behooves you to learn his mehalech – as well as that of the Rebbe, as well as that used by AJOP, by NCSY, by individual powerhouses like Jeff Seidel or R’Yom Tov Glaser in Jerusalem. I don’t expect you to learn to mountain bike or surf as well as R’Yom Tov, but I do think that every one involved in kiruv should see how he has a hashpo’oh on thousands of rechokim every year. Eizehu chachom, halomed mikol ish. And even more so when that ish is the expert of the generation.

Does everyone have to follow him? Who said so? not me. I quoted his words to me. As someone else wrote, the Lubavitcher Rebbe said something similar. As I love to point out, every Jew has choices. You can choose to follow him, or not. bechira chofshis is a wonderful thing.

Avram

Giving someone Gefilte is a sure fire way to chase them away And if you really want to make sure they dont come back, Offer them some Chopper Liver

Yekke2, my personal understanding is that my philosophical approach and attitude towards Torah and Mitzvos is relevant to me and to the people who I interact with. They are less if at all relevant to Yossel in Monsey or Shaindel in Gateshead.

Here’s the controversial part. I think that many if not most of us here are products of a good or great Jewish education, built by the mesiras nefesh of our parents and grandparents, and by the incredible leaders of the sheairis hapleytah since 1950. I think that we are the products of their hashpo’oh, and of any other hashpo’os our parents saw fit to expose us to. I think that with those influences, with the guidance of a manhig or manhigim that the individual trusts, and the immersion of living in a Jewish environment, most of us are well equipped to make choices about how we express our Jewish ideals. They won’t all be the same. In fact, everyone’s expression of yiddishkeit will be at least a bit different, because personality and circumstances come into play as well.

Thus, within the parameters of Torah and Mitzvos, there is not one specific mindset. We are all ships in the same fleet, led by the ultimate admiral, going from the same port to the same destination. All the ships are different, some have more sails, some fewer, some are faster or slower, some bigger or smaller. But we have the same set of orders, and that includes how we deal with things that come upon us on the way. As long as we agree on the destination, and as long as we are working from the same set of orders, I don’t see the point in telling the other seafarers what their mindset should be.

Tell her she can be frum without learning. Women have no chiyuv to ‘learn’. Just keep Shabbos, Kashrus, etc.

@yichusdik: In relation to what you were saying, R’ Akiva Eiger has a beautiful vort about individuality in Avoidas Hashem, and it emphasizes your point.

עתיד הקדוש ברוך הוא לעשות מחול לצדיקים והוא יושב ביניהם בגן עדן וכל אחד ואחד מראה באצבעו שנאמר ‘ואמר ביום ההוא הנה אלקינו זה קוינו לו ויושיענו זה ה׳ קוינו לו נגילה ונשמחה בישועתו

“In the furure, HKB”H will make a circle of Tzaddikim and He will sit between them in Gan Eden, and each of them will point with his finger and say “This is our G-d…””

R’ Akiva Eiger explains the significance of the circle. All the tzaddikim will stand in a circle, and HKB”H will be standing (כביכול) in the center. He points out that although they are each standing in very different places, and one side of the circle may be very far from the other side, all points in the circle are equidistant to the centre. And although now we cannot see it, לעתיד לבא we will see that they are all pointing to the centre, saying that “This is our G-d”; they all mean לשם שמים.

Yichusdik & Yekke – I apologize that I did not have an opportunity to reply to your critiques of my post right away. I have been wanting to do so ever since I saw your posts, but I wanted to make sure that I did so only when I had the opportunity to really think carefully about how I phrased things so that I would not make the same mistakes as before.

First of all, I did not, chas v’shalom, mean any disrespect towards Rav Noach Weinberg, zatsal, and I greatly apologize if anything I wrote sounded that way. That was certainly not my intention, and I am certainly not on the level to be able to do so (nor is anyone else, for that matter).

I will try to explain what my point was, and I hope that I do a better job this time.

Thank you Yichsdik and Yekke for your comments on my post and for giving me the opportunity to explain what I meant. I hope that it is clearer now. Please let me know what you think and if you have any further critiques or comments.

Thank you.