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I am learning with a not religious girl through one of the learning programs and she does not want to learn anymore because she said she does not have time anymore. What should I tell her?
tell me what your schedule is these days from morning to night & we will find a time together that works good for both of us conveniently (to squeeze in a time to learn)
You cannot force someone to learn, if she doesnt want to there isnt much you can do
In many cases saying “I dont have time” is code word for saying I dont want to do this anymore
The most important aspect of kiruv for the not-yet-observant is that they feel a part of the Jewish people, and that they feel loved. I don’t remember anyone telling me that they became frum because they heard a certain Torah that resonated in their heart – it was love that the person had in his/her heart when she gave it over that they say made the difference. This does not mean that you had not given over the Torah with love in your heart – she just may not have been able to feel it. Part of the problem is when we try to do kiruv by phone, the other person cannot see the warmth of your smile, the gentleness in your eyes, the visual expressions of love that cannot be heard on the phone. The most successful kiruv happens when a person is exposed to Yiddishkeit without sermons – the simple feeling of family, acceptance, and love in a world of adversity is often enough to bring someone home. The best advice I can give is to invite her to come to you for a Shabbos, and let her just feel the warmth. No sermons, no preaching – she will see a beautifully set table, delicious delicacies, a warm atmosphere, the love in your home – these things may enable her neshama to feel the kedusha of Shabbos and desire more. If she says ‘no’ to your invitation, offer for her to bring a friend. Who knows.. you might be able to provide the environment that would enable them both to make the decision to return home. There is a trap that many of us fall into, so I will state it as simply and as straight forward as possible – there is no success in life without Hashem. If we forget that He runs the world, and that everything is from Hashem, He will let us try to succeed without Him. Since there can be no lasting success without Hashem, we should guard ourselves carefully before doing anything by saying ‘ain od milvado’ with the understanding of what that means, and asking for His help. You are a very special person for seeking the opinions of others for her benefit – May you have the siyatta d’shemaya that you need to serve Hashem with a heart full of joy until 120.
I think ZD has it on the money or the mark (or whatever the expression is). I used to be involved with one of these organizations, and I know that it is quite common for someone to sign up in a moment of inspiration or something else and to lose interest a moment later. This is especially true amongst the teenagers and college-aged students. Sometimes, it can also just be a bad “shidduch” and the student doesn’t know how to tell you.
That is why there usually are staff members available to help with these issues and/or act as a go-between between you and the student. You should call this staff member as soon as possible and discuss the issue with you. They will probably contact the student to find out what is happening and/or try to find you a new student who is more interested and is a better match for you.
If you are going to get into Kiruv, just be aware not everyone is into relgion as you are and there will likely be more failures than successes and there are things you just wont be able to compete with.
for example If someone has tickets to a concert Friday Night, You are unlikely to convince them to give it up for shabbos.
If you cannot deal with such things, perhaps Kiruv is just not your thing. You will have to celebrate the smaller victories.
edited
Rebshiduch,
Where do things stand? Are you going to speak once more on the phone to say good bye?
If it was me
I’d start by respecting their decision
I would thank the person for learning with me because of how much I gained from the experience (new insight to my own Judaism, thinking about great questions they rose).
I’d ask for feedback on what they found most interesting/enjoyable from the learning.
I’d ask if they were to consider continuing or restarting what time would they see working best and topic they’d find most interesting.
Of course I’d talk to the group who sponsors the learning.A guy I know told someone not frum a hashkafa vort and the guy got interested in learning. I was set up with the person to learn through an organization and told that “gemara works better than hashkafa” so we learned brachas for a few weeks and the guy really was uninterested and dropped. In hindsight I would have learned fascinating hashkafa with him. The truth is that would have been a lot more work for me at that time but it would have worked I believe. There may be packets made by smart organizations for kiruv. I recently participated in a one night session through Ohr Sameach and they had a fascinating packet. Wasn’t hashkafa but it was done top notch intellectually for college kids. It traced the gemara about yaharog vaal yaavor to questions like abortion, when to give over a person in a city etc.
Hatzlacha in your kiruv.The most important thing is to be honest because if you are not honest and the person finds out (and they will), they will start doubting everything you ever told them.
rebshiduch,
You can definitely choose that.
I think I should do kiruv on my boyfriend before I do it on some random girl.
Well, go on then, LU… Your turn.
There was a group who brought boys from non-religous families for a Shabbaton to the last Yeshiva I was in, and they asked a couple of bochurim to learn with them during the seder. I agreed to try it out. In the little talk they gave us beforehand, they asked us NOT to debate philosophy with them, NOT to spend time on Hashkafah, but to concentrate on the sugya of our choice.
The first twenty minutes was an absolute waste of time. Much as I tried to make it stimulating and interactive (we did the sugya of Chayecha Kodmin; I spoke about Euthanasia, Life Support Machines, Abortion…) he wasn’t interested; he spent more time looking around the Beis Hamedrash than listening to what I had to say. After approx. twenty minutes, he interrupted and asked me if I was married. When I said no in a surprised voice – I was still seventeen, I realized it was time to close the Gemara.
He told me he “always wanted to have one of those heart to heart talks with someone, but never knows how to start”. Eventually, he opened up, and we had a riveting discussion about Life, the Universe, and Everything. It was highly stimulating, intellectual, and eventually, personal. The organizer of the event came around to see if everything was okay, and was standing behind us listening to the conversation. He told me afterwards that he didn’t mind that I was debating with the boy – he normally doesn’t allow it because he isn’t sure the Yeshiva bochurim are up to successfully navigating the conversation on safe waters, but after listening to our conversation he gave me “permission” to continue our discussion.
What I want to know is this: The professional Kiruv experts all say that the best way to be mekarev is through learning Lomdus with them, not through talking about their issues. In all the times I helped in this program, I found the opposite to be true. I understand that the professional trained Mekarvim may have more success in that area, but as far as amateurs are concerned, I found the opposite.
Has anybody ever found more success in learning a gemara with an absolute beginner (who couldn’t finish of the Pasuk “Shema Yisroel H’ Elokeinu H’ _______”!) than starting with Hashkafah?
JMO
I suspect they dont want you to discuss hashkafa because they are afraid somneone might say something that might have the Bocher question. In any open discussion between 2 people its possible the “wrong person” might get influenced. I suppose they want you to concentrate on gemorah because they know that wont happen
“I think I should do kiruv on my boyfriend before I do it on some random girl.
Well, go on then, LU… Your turn.”
Why do you always dump everything on me? I’m sure you can do a great job! After all, you seem to be great at kiruv!
“yitzmocha, I think I give up doing kiruv. I think I should do kiruv on my boyfriend before I do it on some random girl.”
Rebshidduch – this reminds me of when I was in seminary and I asked the head of my seminary if I should get involved with a certain modern co-ed kiruv organization. He told me I should be mekarev myself first before I’m mekarev others.
Rebshidduch, you are not yet at a stage that you should even be thinking of doing kiruv. If you have a boyfriend who needs kiruv, that shows that: 1. you are not ready to do kiruv & 2. you are not ready to have a boyfriend.
Yekke2 – I had friends who did kiruv in Russia years ago. They said that the boys’ program was much better than the girls’ program because they actually learned.
I am wondering if this rule (about learning Gemara vs. hashkafa) depends on the particular population one is dealing with.
Russians are known to be very intellectual, plus this was a generation ago. Ask any seminary teacher who has been teaching for 20 years and they will tell you that today’s generation is very different than the generation 20 years ago. No one has the ability to concentrate or to think anymore, so teaching is much more difficult.
Today’s generation tends to be less intellectual, have more emotional issues, and is more in need of warmth.
So maybe this principle used to be true, but doesn’t apply today to the same extent. It also may depend on the age of the student.
This is just a hypothesis. You also may be right that there is a difference between a kiruv professional and an amateur. I think the bottom line is that people have to do what they are comfortable with.
Also, is it possible that what they mean is that you should start with learning Gemara and you should not be the one to bring up hashkafa but if that is the direction they want to go in, you should discuss it with them?
ZD’s theory also makes sense and fits with what the organizer told you. If you were a 17 year old Yeshiva bochur, it makes a lot of sense that he was nervous about your getting into a hashkafa discussion with someone not-yet-Frum – both about what he might tell you as well as what you might say to him – both could be major causes of concern.
Edit of my last post: I didn’t mean to write that the boys’ program was objectively better (necessarily). What I meant was that they liked it better. (It could be that it was also better objectively, but I don’t know).
“But at the same time I myself am dating guys who are close to being OTD or actually OTD so there is a contradiction going on.”
That was point -or at least a big part of it.
Why does she have to learn? Since when does Torah observance equal learning, particularly for a woman? Is she observant? Does she want to be? Maybe she doesn’t enjoy the learning and does she need to?
ZD: Correct. Nobody wants to take the responsibility of allowing 17 year olds to face questions they can’t answer, and end up sewing seeds of doubt in their own minds. The reason he “allowed” me to continue was because he saw I was comfortable in answering and discussing, and I apparently held my own enough to allay his fears.
But it wasn’t only with teenagers doing Kiruv; many organizations pride themselves on being mekarev through learning Gemara beIyun, not through Hashkafah. I am wondering if it’s actually more effective when you aren’t a trained professional.
@LU: I think you may be right with that theory. Everyone is saying that the teenagers of today – specifically in the secular world – have a shorter concentration span, lesser intellect, and certainly less motivation or drive to be thinking for themselves. You would probably do a lot better Kiruv with a PowerPoint presentation or movie than through live conversation!
I think alot of people go into Kiruv with unrealistic expectations, They are firm in their yiddishkeit and think others feel the same way. They think that having someone experience a shabbos, Putting on tfelling once or learning some gemorah will bring out the “Pintele Yid” and suddenly someone will become frum. It just doesnt work that way in the real world.
People blame technology – internet and texting, etc. for that. That would explain why it affects the secular world the most. Technology is destroying our brains!
ZD – I suppose that’s true. But most rational thinkers know this not to be the case; the goal of a Shabbaton is not really to ignite the “Pintele Yid”, they are just trying to promote interest through the experience. Every one knows that it isn’t the golden-chicken-soup with fluffy-kneidlach and three-part-harmony which is bringing people back. The aim is to give them a pleasant experience to show that ‘Hey, we’re also normal, just like you’, and to demonstrate Yiddishkeit in a relaxed non-fanatical fashion. This helps discard preconceived misconceptions, and a lot of the fear of Frum people/being Frum disappears.
its not techonlogy per se.
In general religion is on the decline in the western world, people see it as backward and even R’L as hateful and its very hard to convience people otherwise.
ZD- my comment about technology was not in response to your post even though it looks like it. Your post wasn’t there yet when I posted.
My post was in response to Yekke’s comment about poor attentions spans. That seems to be a result of technology.
ZD – what you’re talking about is something that is not only true today – it has always been an issue in kiruv.
I remember reading a story that took place years ago that had to do with that concept. It was something about some people (I think Yeshiva bochurim) who were involved in some kind of kiruv initiative for not-Frum kids. I guess they felt like they weren’t being successful, so someone (I think maybe their Rosh Yeshiva) had to explain to them that people don’t become Frum in one second, and the goal is that one day their grandchildren….. (I don’t remember exactly what he said, but the point was that you are kindling a spark).
I think he also pointed out that the previous generations didn’t stop being Frum in one second, it was a process, so likewise, you can’t expect them to become Frum in one second, it is also a process.
Also, I think the point of having someone put on Tefillin is just that – that they should put on Tefillin one time.
If we appreciated the value of Mitzvos, we would realize what an incredible accomplishment it is when a Jew puts on Tefillin one time, and we would realize what an incredible effect he is having both on himself and on the entire world!Lilmod: I spent 15 years as a teacher, chavrusa, and host family with an international kiruv organization in a volunteer capacity. later on, I worked for 5 years in executive management of another, youth centered international kiruv organization. Even today I have a lot to learn, but I was zocheh to have many friends, influencers and true tzadikim have a hashpo’oh on me regarding the practical and philosophical elements of kiruv during that time.
I was zocheh to meet Rav Noach Weinberg, zt’l a number of times. He once told me that once someone, even the most beginning baal tshuva, has learned and internalized even one mitzvah, he or she has a responsibility to share it with others to the best of their ability. If that means by example, so be it. If it means by teaching, so be it.
So I do take some issue with your statement above about Rebshidduch being unready for Kiruv. She may be unready to be learning bchavrusa with someone who doesn’t seem interested and not know the best way to deal with it. And she certainly has to achieve a level of maturity to be able to convey a firm 360 degree commitment if that’s what she is portraying to this individual.
But, as Rav Noach said, each Jew has a responsibility to teach another, even if it’s one mitzvah, and even if it is the smallest amount of kiruv.
I am going to agree with LU here, Kiruv is a very dangerous field to be in. Everyone wants to be in it and spread Yiddishkeit, however they dont seem to realize there is a danger of either being drawn in to the other side or doing or saying the wrong thing.
One can have the right motivations and still say the wrong thing and poison the whole operation
zahavasdad,
Kiruv is a very dangerous field to be in.
…
One can have the right motivations and still say the wrong thing and poison the whole operation
So what do you recommend?
Yichusdik – That is a very controversial approach and there are many (if not most or all) who disagree.
I listened to a tape by Rav Orlofsky years ago on the perils of doing kiruv. It was a long time ago so I hope I am not inadvertantly quoting the wrong person, but I am pretty sure that he is the one who pointed out that one should not do kiruv if it will harm the person doing kiruv’s own spiritual growth.
To the argument, “But we have to! There’s a fire out there!”, his response was, “Do you believe in Hashem?”
We have to have bitachon in Hashem that He runs the world and we are not in control. We do not and can not make people Frum. All we can do is to do our hishtadlus which means only doing that hishtadlus which is appropriate and does not run counter to Torah hashkafa. One is not allowed to do kiruv if he is not strong enough to know that he will not be influenced. One is also not allowed to do kiruv if he is not yet strong enough to give things over properly.I happen to think that a lot of people who are doing kiruv are doing more harm than good. If someone’s hashkafa is not what it should be and they are mekarev people to be “frum” the way that they are “Frum” and they gave over an improper view of what Yiddishkeit is, they may be doing more harm than good.
I just reread your post as I was typing mine and I see that you wrote:
“And she certainly has to achieve a level of maturity to be able to convey a firm 360 degree commitment if that’s what she is portraying to this individual.”That is precisely the issue here.
I just realized that you probably don’t understand why I told Rebshidduch what I did. It was not based on the fact that she didn’t know what to do when her student didn’t call her back. It had abosolutely NOTHING to do with that!!! It had to do with other things that I know about Rebshidduch from other threads, as well as a particular comment she made on this thread that referred to things from other threads.
Even though I started out this post by stating that your approach is very controversial, I realize now that it is possible that we don’t have a fundamental disagreement but rather a different understanding of this situation. I am going to leave the beginning of this post anyhow because: a) It could be that I was right in the first place and there was a fundamental disagreement and b) there may be others who understand your post that way, and I think that this is a very important point that MUST be emphasized.
“I was zocheh to meet Rav Noach Weinberg, zt’l a number of times. He once told me that once someone, even the most beginning baal tshuva, has learned and internalized even one mitzvah, he or she has a responsibility to share it with others to the best of their ability. If that means by example, so be it.”
That is not the way that Rebshidduch was using the term “kiruv”. There may be many ways one can use the term, but when speaking to someone who understands a term a certain way, you must use the term in the same way or you will be misunderstood. That is why I told her that she should not be doing kiruv.
please note: I still am trying to figure out how to use the markup language. While I am proud of myself for using the indent correctly, apparently I sitll don’t know how to end it. It was only the word “possible” that was supposed to be indented.
I fixed it. You end it using
</em>Thank you moderator 25!!! So happy I know who to thank this time! Was it you last time as well?
Lilmod – Aside perhaps from the Lubavitcher Rebbe zt’l, R’ Noach zt’l was perhaps the single most important and influential individual, Gadol, Tzadik to shape the kiruv world. I didn’t read it in a book, or hear it from someone else. He told it to me. I choose to heed his approach over others you may find more palatable.
I do, however, agree that there is micro-kiruv, if you will, sharing something learned, something experienced, and the joy of that coming closer to Judaism. And then there is macro-kiruv, where one is immersed in kiruv with people who have no Jewish background and bring other influences. I think Rav Noach zt’l was talking about micro-kiruv in that statement.
I agree that one who engages in full-bore kiruv needs several things. One, a Rav who can act as an advisor. Two, a rock solid emunah. Not blind, but built on an immersive Jewish education, life experience, and attention to sources. Three, an excellent but practical halachic immersion. Not one of being a kanoi. One with the understanding of the latitude and kulos that many Gedolim have applied to the sensitive work of kiruv. Four, self confidence WITH humility. Confidence in their education and emunah, humility in knowing there is much still to learn. Fifth, compassion. If you haven’t walked in the shoes of the person you are being mekarev, and you likely haven’t, you MUST be compassionate enough to know your approach may not heal, salve or answer their very real challenges, and you have to be OK with that.
Lastly, something I learned from a former boss of mine who ran a very successful branch of an international kiruv organization. As a kiruv professional or lay outreach worker, you have to ask yourself: What is my goal? To reach 10 people who I can introduce the beauty of yiddishkeit to who I will foster until they are 100% chareidi? or to reach 1000 people who I can give the tools to make Jewish choices in their lives, give opportunities for further learning and growth, but not expect to all become frum, let alone chareidi? Once you’ve answered that question, you will find that your approach and your philosophy of kiruv will have directed you to the conclusion you came to, and will inform your actions going forward.
Interesting quote of R’ Weinberg. This is very similar to something which the Lubavitcher Rebbe said many times “One who knows alef must teach alef, one who knows beis must teach beis”
“Lilmod, I understand where you are coming from 100%. But even the guy was giving me ways of how to get involved in kiruv. So he supports me.”
And therefore? That still doesn’t mean you’re ready to do kiruv. As you yourself wrote: “But at the same time I myself am dating guys who are close to being OTD or actually OTD so there is a contradiction going on.”
You have to be strong in your Yiddishkeit before you can be mekarev others. Read Yishcusdik’s list of qualifications.
If you are going to “trick” someone into showing them how beautiful Yiddishkeite is
What are you going to do if someone shows you parts that are harder for many people to accept.
What if the person who you have “sneakily proved that yiddishkeite is beautiful” tell you they are a mamzer and cannot marry easier. Of what if the person you are learning with is an Agunah.
You are hitting a slipperly slope
Yichusdik, it sounds like we agree on the main issues here – namely, that one should only be involved in what you are calling macro-kiruv if they have many qualifications (you listed even more than I was thinking of! but I do agree with you).
Rebshidduch’s situation is a macro-kiruv situation and she should not be involved until she has some of the above qualifications. She should certainly wait until she has attended seminary for a MINIMUM of one year.
However, there is something important to point out. I attended an Aish HaTorah seminar at which the presenter made sure to deliniate the differences between Aish haTorah’s hashkafa and mainstream Yeshivish hashkafa. If you have been involved with Aish HaTorah, I am sure that you are aware of those differences.
If Rav Noach Weinberg zatsal was your Rav, then you can and probably should follow him. But please understand that most Frum Jews will and probably should choose to follow the mainstream Yeshivish hashkafa (if in fact there are differences).
Rav Noach Weinberg zatsal was a big Tzaddik, but I’m not sure that he should be quoted as though he was the Gadol Hador and everyone has to follow him.
In any case, I don’t think that anyone would disagree with the words that you quoted in his name. The only disagreement would be in their application. And I don’t know if we have any way of knowing precisely how he meant for them to be applied.
ZD – While I think that I heartily agree with everything that you have written in this thread (I think I should be saying Shehechiyanu early this year!!!), and I agree with your last post as well, I think that in terms of your last post, you and Rebshidduch were talking about different things (and therefore, I agree with her as well).
I think it was her use of the word “sneakily” which threw you. I don’t think she meant it the way you thought she did.
Some have pointed out that kiruv works when a person feels loved, and less so when someone convinces the other that Torah is emesdik. This has been my observations as well — people become close to chabad, to Aish, or whatever, when they enjoy Friday night dinner, etc. But not because we discussed whether there is a god, and if so, blah blah blah.
But if this is true, that means that in theory kiruv could work for anything. If a reform person, or a Hindu person, showed someone love, showed them how beautiful communal singing is, etc, then maybe the person will become reform or hindu, etc. This seems disappointing because it means to me that we’re not *really* doing kiruv, just pushing on people’s psychological buttons, and manipulating them. Of course, if this eventually leads a person to learn, understand, and eventually do things lishma that’s great! But if it doesn’t…
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