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Let’s go back about 10 years or so to the time of “The Takkanos”. For those who may not remember, this was an initiative aimed at bringing down the amount of money spent on weddings. For most people, the combined cost of l’chayim and vort parties, gifts for the chosson and kallah to exchange, the wedding itself, and the sheva brochos thereafter were (and are) unbearable. For all except a select (wealthy) few, marrying off even one child meant going into debt – and marrying off a number of children KE”H was (and is) guaranteed financial ruin.
Then came the Takkanos. Recognizing that most people would be afraid to cut back unilaterally, and would continue to “keep up with the Cohens” to their own financial ruin, a group of askanim drafted a set of “rules” guiding the big ticket spending surrounding a wedding. They suggested that having both a l’chayim and vort were unnecessary, as was having too many wedding guests, plus a few other cut backs. The goal was to dramatically reduce the cost of marrying off a child – so that most people would be able to afford to do so. Many Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva endorsed The Takkanos, and allowed their signatures to be printed in newspapers and on posters.
Why do I bring up this ancient history? Where does NASI come in?
The Takkanos were moderately successful at first, and still have a small impact on today’s standards. However, it takes just a small logical step to realize that if people don’t have the money for wedding costs without breaking the bank, they probably also don’t have the money to pay “support” for long-term Kollel life! It was therefore only a matter of time before people realized that the “Cohens” could not afford to pay the 5 year $100,000 kollel contract too, and a new takkanah could lift this weight as well. The Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva had accidentally signed a death warrant on the Kollel and Yeshiva system!
Enter NASI. Their “game changer” was to instill psychological fear in girls that the shidduch scene is like playing musical chairs. Through absolutely no fault of her own a girl might remain single forever – simply because there are not enough boys to go around. (Let’s suspend disbelief for the moment and say that there actually was a cohort in the dating parsha where the “girls” outnumbered the “boys”.) It doesn’t take a genius to figure out which girls will get the “chairs” in this game and who will be “out” – i.e. those with the most to offer. Surprisingly, NASI was well received by the public at large and their dogma was taken as gospel.
If anyone was still thinking of making a takanah to limit the amount of “support” that a family should give their daughter and son-in-law learning in kollel, they quickly dropped the idea. No one in their right mind would go along with it – because if you believe 150 girls are competing for 100 “chairs”, offering “takkanah support” would result in an automatic elimination. And people were believing it – the “support” system was saved!
If you have a hard time believing this theory of mine, simply compare NASI’s raison d’etre with their actions. They claim to exist only to ease (or eliminate) the shidduch crisis, but their actions speak differently. They continuously remind us of the imbalanced shiddich parsha (through an unbalanced spokesman). They proclaim as loudly as possible that boys have the upper hand and can demand virtually anything they want. They keep pounding that into the boys’ heads. And to perpetuate the situation, they try to convince younger boys to marry older girls – girls who would not normally have been part of their cohort – to make sure that there will be a shortage of boys in the future.
Their latest campaign is to pay shadchanim to force older girls on normal age boys – to further increase the desperation of normal age girls! The 19-23 year old girls will not stop looking for shidduchim (does anyone think they will sit back and wait until they become “older” singles?) and so with the influx of older single girls resulting from the promise of excessive remuneration, the boys will have more power than ever!
I believe that North American Shidduch Initiative set out on a goal to save the Yeshiva and Kollel system by taking advantage of the greatest motivator of all – FEAR. I don’t think anyone realizes this, but this has been the most successful campaign ever. The level of demands for support are more disgraceful than ever before – for obvious reasons. Look behind the curtain! How long will we allow this gross manipulation to continue? Ad Masai?
can someone please post the list of gedolim who signed off on NASI? i havent seen it yet and im curious
I have extra aluminum foil hats 🙂
Seriously, the crisis predated NASI.
The Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva had accidentally signed a death warrant on the Kollel and Yeshiva system!
I completely fail to follow your logic. The rest, therefore, is also incomprehensible to me.
(through an unbalanced spokesman)
Your personal attack does nothing to enhance your credibility.
Squeak:
To be honest, I don’t think your post deserves a reply. It is in motzi shem ra (definiton- FALSE lashon hara) of the hightest order.
I wouldn’t ask for apology to me personally as i’m a simple poster, but you might do well to save your chelek in olam haba by personally approcahing the people who are well recognized talmidei chachomim and gedolim and have strongly endorsed the actions that the project has taken.
The fact that you don’t know their names certainly isn’t reason to level the accusation that you did.
you should’ve contacted them first and you should’ve done your due diligence before risking you chelek liolam haba.
You can call the program and ask for the names of the people who no doubt you respect and receive their phone numbers to approach them for mechila.
The accusation you have leveled,
“I believe that North American Shidduch Initiative set out on a goal to save the Yeshiva and Kollel system by taking advantage of the greatest motivator of all “
that the people being moser nefesh to help the girls are doing so in order to further the interests of the boys and the roshei yeshiva is disgraceful and beyond comprehension.
Feel free to disagree with the philosophy, feel free to disagree with their tactics, but don’t EVER DARE have the absolute chutzpah to challenge the motives of the people running the program.
DON’T EVER.
Soliek,
On a different thread, AZ posted the following (referring to the current NASI program):
This program is endorsed by the following Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva
Rav Moshe Brown Shlita (Far Rockaway)
Rav Kalman Epstein Shlita (Queens)
Rav Yaakov Forcheimer Shlita (Lakewood)
Rav Shmuel Fuerst Shlita (Chicago)
Rav Moshe Mordechai Lowi Shlita (Toronto)
Rav Yaakov Neuberger Shlita (Teaneck)
Rav Shlomo Feivel Schustal Shlita (Brooklyn)
Rav Dovid Weinberger Shlita (Lawrence)
Rav Herschel Welcher Shlita (Queens)
On a tactical level your suggestion is actually comical.
1. The wedding takanos (which we all know has been only moderately succesful if that and greatly served to undermine the respect that the community had vis a vis kol koreis and the like and in addition for all intents and purposes served as teh death blow of ever trying such tactics again) was going to serve as the model upon which some new kollel support takanah.- That’s inherently ridiculous.
2. That new takana would endanger the kolel system because for some magical reason such a takana would be succesful and thus endanger the kollel system.- Guess they didn’t know about einstein’s theory.
3. Enter the NASI Project that via marketing pre-empts and prevents any success of said kollel support takanah.
wow, someone has been reading to much Clancy, Baldachi etc.
Squeak: being that your are perhaps the resident genius of the CR where on earth did this post come from???????
Wow…
Squeak, I strongly disagree with you and your post makes no sense!
Recently Intercepted
Top Secret
Internal NASI Communication
“Rav Herschel Welcher Shlita”
O_O wow…didnt see that coming…
what does that mean soliek? explain yourself please
Squeak: I Fail to see the humor in utilizign the agony of the young women for some joke, nor in belittling the efforts of frankly the ONLY group of people who have gotten off their rear ends to do anything about it.
It is pretty sad, but to date there doesn’t seem to be anyone else who is doing anything about it….
Would be nice if there were others, oh well..
Squeak: I guess we just have a different sense of humor…my deepest sympathies for your needing to break your “cr character”…
oh you obviously don’t know me, becuae those that do know that i laugh at myself, often and heartily and i certainly don’t take myself seriously…
“This program is endorsed by the following Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva”
I am just curious to know how their REBBETZINS, mothers, sisters, and DAUGHTERS truly feel about this endorsement and the NASI program.
Soliek this is not the first time you have said something very curious and then slinked off into the night, if u have something to say about Rabbi Welcher than speak up dont use innuendo.
I dunno, AZ…I’m a young woman and I thought it was pretty funny. 🙂
How’s what going – the brains – they are fine… I think
Seriously squeak what is your issue do you not believe there is an issue, do you think the issue should be handled differently, or do you have general issues with the structure of the community and find NASI to be a convenient punching bag?
I am just curious to know how their REBBETZINS, mothers, sisters, and DAUGHTERS truly feel about this endorsement and the NASI program.
Now that their names are listed, you can probably ask them.
I can tell you that I asked some of my female relatives, out of my own curiosity, how they felt about it, and they were positive. Hardly scientific, but the assumption that all females are against it is untrue.
GAW, I have plenty of my own. But thank you for getting the point. It was something you said that inspired me.
Thanks. Next time you should make your theory somewhat more plausable. For example, Paul to separate Christianity, or TV to separate MO.
Besides, Roshei Yeshiva wouldn’t want more Kollel boys. They don’t pay anything in! 😉
Just curious if I may.
what DO you think the motives and strategy behind this new program is. They do have a bit of a track record in terms of what they are out to accomlpish.
Did they just lose their minds?????
Rembeber, no one affiliated with the NASI Project is a shadchan in any serious way, so why would they put themselves through this.
To raise $500 per completed shidduch for every participant after the first fifty who gets married???
wow, what a pathetic job of fundraising. They have been far more efficient in the past.
That’s a whole lot of effort expended to be able to “line their pockets”.
Seriously, what do you think they are doing it for,
or perhpas you understand exactly why they are doing it, and you disagree.
If it’s option B’, then the results over time will show wether it should be folded or continued.
What a novel concept, judging the success of a program based on results instead of based on opinion of cr posters…..
“what does that mean soliek? explain yourself please”
“Soliek this is not the first time you have said something very curious and then slinked off into the night, if u have something to say about Rabbi Welcher than speak up dont use innuendo.”
i have absolutely nothing to say about him, at least not anything negative. no, it’s just a bit shocking to think that he signed something like NASI. he was my rebbi in high school and the idea i got of him was that he would be more likely to oppose something like this…but then again it was 10th grade and what do you really know in 10th grade…
Soliek i just don’t understand why you framed your original post like that its like you wanted to elicit a certain kind of response is that your thing are you an inciter? do you like to write things that can be taken a certain way and sit back and watch the response?
” hate to break character “
While in theory, I agree with the OP, the way in which it was said was a bit harsh.
Which leads me to question one thing. The Squeak I used to hear from in the CR was the one who “communicates with dolphins”.
The Squeak that posted now, has a new tag. New person? Same person,new attitude?
I hope its the former. I’d like to think the old Squeak could do a better job than this.
I say this, because I know one of the Rabbonim listed on the Nasi signators, and to suggest that he would be part in a conspriacy is unthinkable. And to suggest that he could be duped? That, I also doubt. His circle of Talmidim (both past and present) are very much a part of the shidduch pool, and the same time, very web saavy. To think they would take part in a project that was intended to be a scam? No, I don’t buy that.
So, my gut feeling is, the Squeak that posted is not the Squeak we know.
“Soliek i just don’t understand why you framed your original post like that its like you wanted to elicit a certain kind of response is that your thing are you an inciter? do you like to write things that can be taken a certain way and sit back and watch the response?”
only once in a while
I don’t get the whole thing – if the “gap” is primarily caused by 18 year old girls jumping into the “parsha” before most boys do (age 20-22?), then why not simply allow or encourage girls to date later???
EJ- Nice Idea!
and your suggested method of implementation is…….
thanx squeak
for keeping things interesting in the cr
” suggested method of implementation is……. “
I have one.
Starting at age 16, girls need to hear that there is no reason for them to break their heads, getting good marks, so they can get a degree, so they can support their husbands.
Next, tell them they need not rush into marraige at 19, because the quality boys are not running away. They are only getting more mature as the get into the 23-24 slot, hence better suited for the job of being a decent, appreciative husband.
Most important, is the next belief. They need to start looking for boys that have a job (or are almost done with getting their degree. Anything less, is an insult to the hard work the girls have (and continue to) put in towards getting a good carrear.
Once boys know what is expected of them, they will look for ways to achieve it. If the “admission ticket” to the dating arena means you need to be employable, you can be sure the boys will figure out a way to get in the game.
For too long, we have allowed our boys to live a double-standard, and its high time we demand from them the same accountability we do from our girls.
If the “admission ticket” to the dating arena means you need to be employable, you can be sure the boys will figure out a way to get in the game.
Gedolim will ban it, Bais Yaakovs will refuse to implement. Sems will teach the exact opposite (they already do). You may as well ask the Yeshivish to become MO.
bpt-
Exactly.
AZ, with all due respect, I don’t think you can mechanically engineer your way out of of what is essentially a culturally created “predicament”. To accomplish what you’re setting out to do, I think we’d really have to effect organic change within the community, via cultural memes and norms.
how about if boys would start shidduchim earlier? or at we just not ready?
if so that we start dating when we are ready than it can’t change
Just thinking: there is no way I would let a shadchan make that kind of cash off me. I would insist before going out with anyone on the list that I get a very large cut of that money.
Look how brilliant I am.
Shadchan: go out with shprintzy.
Popa: ok. Is she on the list?
shadchan: not telling.
popa: ok, then I’ll go ask a different shadchan
shadchan: she’s on the list.
popa: If we get engaged, I want the money. all of it.
shadchan: no.
popa: ok, forget it. I’ll go out with my chavrusah’s niece.
shadchan: that’s retarded, if you want to go out with this one, you should
popa: you’re a retard; I don’t care which one i go out with.
shadchan: how about you get 90%? That’s a lot of money.
popa: 92% and we’ve got a deal.
shadchan and popa draw up a contract, and drink a l’chaim. Shadchan got more money than otherwise, and popa got a free drink.
popa_bar_abba
Rarely Decent, Mildly
Retarded and
Eccentric
Gedolim…Bais Yaakovs…Sems…..
You are right. No help wil come from these quarters. Their job is to push one ideal: Torah above all else. Their job is to make you aspire to reach for the sky.
Who I was talking to was the PARENTS. (and indirectly, the girls themselves).
Our job is to meld Torah with reality. I could quote a dozen meforshim that support my theory. So could 99% of the CR. Torah that is not sustainable is not what we are all about.
Yehadus / hashkafa is all for being a baal achroi. You find it in gemmorah, you find it in chumash.
Its the “media hype” that has made work and accountability something to be ashamed of.
As far as “yeshivish becoming MO” that does not fly with me, for 2 reasons:
# 1 – it implies that the MO are somehow “less” than us.
Not so. They are just following a different mehallech. Much like the shtramel / #70s crowd. Not better; just different.
# 2 – it implies that, to enter the workforce, you are by default “giving up something”. Again, not so. True, you need to be careful in the workforce, but by the same token, our boys need to be careful when they fly off for a year in EY. If you can trust them, you can trust them. As long as we are dilligent, and they know for whom they are truly working for and what they are working towards, we can build a true Ben Torah.
As far as “yeshivish becoming MO” that does not fly with me, for 2 reasons:
# 1 – it implies that the MO are somehow “less” than us.
Not so. They are just following a different mehallech. Much like the shtramel / #70s crowd. Not better; just different.
# 2 – it implies that, to enter the workforce, you are by default “giving up something”. Again, not so. True, you need to be careful in the workforce, but by the same token, our boys need to be careful when they fly off for a year in EY. If you can trust them, you can trust them. As long as we are dilligent, and they know for whom they are truly working for and what they are working towards, we can build a true Ben Torah.
Once again, if the schools are teaching the opposite, then what your children will believe is what is taught, like it or not. Even if you manage to teach your child right, still 95% (if not more) will go with the flow, leaving us without a solution.
You and I actually agree on this one, but on a large scale it is not implementable without the Yeshivas & Beis Yaakovs. And they will never do it. Not until they don’t have a choice.
AZ-
“EJ- Nice Idea! And your suggested method of implementation is…….”
This is exactly the problem, IMHO – your response assumes that a solution to this “crisis”, really cultural in nature, can be achieved by taking out a hammer, wrench and nails, rolling up our collective sleeves, and setting to work, tongue poking from the corner of our mouths…
Courtship and marriage today needs to be natural and organic, because our lives are so much more complex than they were in the past, when “the parsha” was much more systemic in nature. The trials, tribulations, stresses and complexities of daily life are so different than they were two or three generations ago that the “old” model of courtship and marriage may not be as relevant today in the same way, at least outside of most circles.
What I think needs to happen is young people need to be educated, with minimal bias, in understanding what marriage means today and what it entails. They need to empowerment to make their own decisions, in courtship and in married life, without the heavy reliance on others or “vitur hada’as” that can be somewhat prevalent. Girls should be encouraged to get married when they feel they are ready to, not when an arbitrarily imposed schedule compels them. Young people should be encouraged to clearly understand as best they can the pros and cons of various lifestyle choices. They need the freedom to choose a lifestyle on their own based on that understanding, not just conform to a general roadmap that has been long before laid out before them.
As a corollary to my previous post-
We as a community wring our hands with pained expressions at the slowly rising rate of divorce in the religious community.
Perhaps, IN PART, the trend is supported by a communal refusal to modify an anachronistic courtship model to better reflect modern life??
Gavra-
“If the “admission ticket” to the dating arena means you need to be employable, you can be sure the boys will figure out a way to get in the game.
Gedolim will ban it, Bais Yaakovs will refuse to implement. Sems will teach the exact opposite (they already do). You may as well ask the Yeshivish to become MO.”
This isn’t an MO vs Yeshivish issue – this is an issue of practicality. There should be no “admission ticket” – again, an admission ticket connotes something systemic and, these days, marriage and dating (courtship) need to be moving away from the old systemic method to a more organic one, with the players that REALLY matter (the two daters) mentally and emotionally engaged in the process. People looking to get married need to ultimately decide on their OWN what is important to them and what is not, what they want out of life and what they don’t, who they can live with and who they can’t.
” … your children will believe is what is taught….
“… it is not implementable without the Yeshivas & Beis Yaakovs. And they will never do it “
Here, I disagree. Being the product and the patron of the “Yeshiva system” what I have heard is a critisism of the “outside world” (which is of course true) and nothing but praise for the life of learning (which is also true).
Where I think the “system” fails, is by letting the kids come to the conclusion, that its either / or. Pass or fail. Kosher or traif.
We, as adults, know that there is a time and place for everything. And under the right conditions, even things that are “off limits” under some circumstances, can become not just ok, but even something mandated.
So, its not that the kids are hearing no, never.
They are hearing, not now, not yet.
And that’s where we (as parents) step in and say, now is the time to be a grown up and do the things that grownups do.
And its not k’neged halacha or a goyish hashkafa. Its the way Yiddish homes are run.
enlightenedjew: Dismantling the dating system might solve the problem, yes. So would the ancient method of “Organicly” making sure your future husband would propose (which is exactly what would happen in too many cases). You may as well suggest mixed high schools while you are at it. Have the head cheerleader “Organicly”, mentally and emotionally engage with the quarterback.
Unless you are not suggesting removing the shaddchan & parents from the process? Then please explain yourself.
Here, I disagree. Being the product and the patron of the “Yeshiva system” what I have heard is a critisism of the “outside world” (which is of course true) and nothing but praise for the life of learning (which is also true).
Where I think the “system” fails, is by letting the kids come to the conclusion, that its either / or. Pass or fail. Kosher or traif.
We, as adults, know that there is a time and place for everything. And under the right conditions, even things that are “off limits” under some circumstances, can become not just ok, but even something mandated.
So, its not that the kids are hearing no, never.
They are hearing, not now, not yet.
And that’s where we (as parents) step in and say, now is the time to be a grown up and do the things that grownups do.
And its not k’neged halacha or a goyish hashkafa. Its the way Yiddish homes are run.
I agree with almost all your points (I disagree why Yeshivos exist in the first place, and what their purpose is). Parents have to be involved.
However, too many parents are not strong enough (or agree) with the schools to create changes.
organically. Sorry for the spelling error.
“too many parents are not strong enough (or agree) with the schools to create changes”
And that, is where blogs come into play.
You and I are old enough to remember a time when many ills in our midst were kept silent. Enter the web, and presto! The unheard voices, the unasked questions, are suddenly in the spotlight.
Don’t think revolution. Think evolution (no, not the darwin kind). A change in attitude comes slowly, but steadily.
There was a time that EVERYONE made a huge chasseneh or bar mitzvah or Shabbos Sheva Brachos. Along came the chassidim and takanah halls (in BP and Willy) and all of a sudden, its OK to be different.
No, its not for everyone, and no, it won’t happen en masse. But the change in the staus quo in reagard to the shidduch scene will happen. My guess? 5 years, max.
bpt:
We should be so lucky. It will not help the girls out there now, or for the next ten years, though.
in my opinion the marriage in the end is for the guy and the girl- no one else! being this is what it is it should be their opinions in on this thing not others trying to force things upon them they dont want. i believe this is a major reason for many divorces -people r semi forced into things by the thoughts of their surroundings but a person should not become a product of their life “oh this happened so i guess this is what has to happen because ‘A’ happened” also we have to keep in mind
1)not everyone wants a kollel guy (i dont i just want a guy who learns but will also support)
2)someone may want a guy younger than them (i dont but each have their own opinions)
3)Hashem chooses our basheret 40 days before we are born so if a person is having “issues” finding the one then its not the time yet so its not really a “crisis” only looks like it in our eyes dont worry hashem does not make a shortage of guys theyre here in the world somewhere
” It will not help the girls out there now, or for the next ten years, though. “
No, this I cannot accept. Here’s why:
Girls out there now: There are GOOD boys out there NOW who, for whatever the reason, are not choosing to follow the learning full time path. Those boys need to be cultivated and encouraged so the girls are not all chasing the same 200-300 new arrivals each zman.
10 years from now: no one can predict the future. But is we give voice to a new train of thought, it might, might, might catch on.
Fact is, we as Jews have always been faced with tough odds to beat. But we do. Always have, always will.
Admit defeat? Give in to despair? Never.
Gavra, I am suggesting, like bpt, that our system evolve. No, parents should not be excluded from the dating process per se. Shadchanim should not either, but should one wish to go outside the “traditional” process, that should be accepted.
I’m suggesting that dating be less a system and more a process, with the most affected parties encouraged to be firmly ensconced in the drivers’ seats.
BPT, I love, LOVE this!
“Starting at age 16, girls need to hear that there is no reason for them to break their heads, getting good marks, so they can get a degree, so they can support their husbands.
Next, tell them they need not rush into marraige at 19, because the quality boys are not running away. They are only getting more mature as the get into the 23-24 slot, hence better suited for the job of being a decent, appreciative husband.
Most important, is the next belief. They need to start looking for boys that have a job (or are almost done with getting their degree. Anything less, is an insult to the hard work the girls have (and continue to) put in towards getting a good carrear.
Once boys know what is expected of them, they will look for ways to achieve it. If the “admission ticket” to the dating arena means you need to be employable, you can be sure the boys will figure out a way to get in the game.
For too long, we have allowed our boys to live a double-standard, and its high time we demand from them the same accountability we do from our girls.”
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