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Did NASI test this with any focus groups before publishing the ad?
Not the first time that NASI has put an ad in national publications and then had to retract. Let’s see if they have the guts to do it again.
midwesterner: What ad has NASI previously retracted?
@Englishman: “You don’t elicit much empathy when crying all about your vacation, recreation, hanging out, and traveling expenses.”
Wow. Have you given any consideration to the proportion of ‘hanging out’ to the proportion of the other expenses mentioned? Read that post one more time. How likely is it for a girl who carefully and personally sets aside for those practical expenses (insurances etc) and a decent savings to also go on numerous extravagent vacations?
Eating out at a pizza place once in a blue moon to catch up with friends is hardly considered extravagant. Nor is it a contradiction for someone who is careful with her money, to deem her friends important enough to spend time with them. Or to leave town for a few days once a year to unwind. I’m not referring to luxurious cruises, or trips around the world. (Though for some, it might be what they need.)
If you, or your son were to go out with a girl who was single for 10 years, would you wonder how she spends her free time? If you asked her and she responded “I need to save for retirement”. What would you think? No seriously, if a girl told you that she NEVER gets together with her friends over dinner, or NEVER leaves town because she is afraid of wasting away her savings. She has never spent any money on any recreational activity. Not paddle boating on Chol hamoed, or hiking through a trail (insert whatever minor/relatively inexpensive activity or hobby you’d like). Would that concern you?
If it doesn’t, I’m worried for her, and I’m worried for you.
And who says I’m “crying” over my expenses? I believe I said that I happily pay those expenses. I’m grateful that I have insurance. Grateful that I have a job. Grateful that I have friends to spend time with. Grateful that my parents encourage me to be responsible and take care of all of these things so that I’ll know how to build a home, b’ezras Hashem. But you need to understand that believing that single girls have no expenses is erroneous.
@of course: thank you for understanding the emotional component here. I know many girls who do just that – and responsibly.They know what they need to keep their spirits up. They are keeping themselves emotionally healthy, within limits. When I read the ad, i didn’t have a need to go on a spending spree – though I see why some might. It aint easy at this stage. For anyone, male or female. You just gotta take a deep breath, daven, and keep on plugging.
@My Logic: I wasn’t offended at all, though I apologize if I came across that way. I was just trying to shed light on a perspective that many people seem to be oblivious too.
About two or three years ago, an ad came out with the blaring headline, “10% of this years Bais Yaakov seniors will NEVER get married!”
There was then a huge outcry about who asked them to play god (lashon chol here, no capital and no hyphen necessary) and decide who won’t get married. They can say they don’t understand how the math will work, but who are they to be poseach peh l’satan and proclaim who will be single?!?! In addition, why throw a line out there that could lead some to being meya’esh prematurely.
A couple of weeks later there was a retraction printed in Yated and Modia. It went something like, “We never really meant such a shtarkeh proclamation. We just want to draw attention to what we think is a budding problem.”
They think going over the top is a way to get their message across. Just like getting 60 roshei yeshiva to sign a letter saying that they think it is a good idea to redt shidduchim to older girls, and people shouldn’t get a complex about going with a shidduch where the kallah is a bit older. They then use the signatures of those people to announce and push policies that forbid 19 year olds to date.
Every other initiative they dream up already has the imprimatur of the roshei yeshiva who signed the initial letter, so therefore everything else has their backing as well. I have spoken to one signer on those letters, to mekuravim of two others, and to one other person who is well recognized and is on the caliber if not higher than many or most of the signers, yet he was asked to sign and declined. They NEVER meant to make radical changes and restrictions against anyone dating. Only to promote people redting to those who seemed to get neglected. AS a matter of fact, I remember the week the original letter came out, an engagement was announced between the 22 year old son of one signer to the 19 year old granddaughter of another.
Back to the initiative. Over shabbos we had a guest, the mother of an “older” single. She read the ad and had the following questions.
Are those who sign up and have their names put on “the list”, given the contact information of all shadchanim who receive this list so that they can reach out to them?
Can anyone who calls themselves a shadchan call NASI and get a copy of the list?
Does obtaining a copy of “the list”, obligate a shadchan in any way, such as a commitment to reach out to X number of people to potentially redt a shidduch?
Obviously, only NASI has the definitive answers to questions such as these, however, does anyone feel that the program suggested by NASI might be more palatable to the public if if those or similar type modifications were made (and publicised)?
As someone previously mentioned (sorry, i read almost all the posts and too lazy to go back and check who it was) a shadchan is not a prefessional, they are volunteers. VOLUNTEERS. What is a volunteer? Last i checked a volunteer was someone who donated their time/efforts for free. I’m not saying a shadchan shouldnt be paid, i just think this is outrageous and ridiculous (and alot more that i wont and cant mention).
And what if a girl does shell out the money, and doesnt get married for a few years, c”v, why is she paying more? Shouldnt she get a portion of her money back? wouldnt a shadchan work harder so that he/she doesnt earn less?
I try to make shidduchim on my own time. I’ve made calls overseas, i’ve been insulted and put down, but i never even thought about the money. If someone went out a few times, i would try to imagine hw much they’d give and what i could do with it, but i would never demand! And even though b”h our bills are growing with our family, i still would not demand anything! most people give anyway. and what they give is what they can afford adn it means more than forcing someone to pay what they cannot!
“a shadchan is not a prefessional, they are volunteers.”
You might want to discuss this novel concept of yours with the numerous “professional” shadchanim out there. There are quite a few. Google terms such as professional shadchan, or professional jewish matchmaker or something similar as a way to start.
So said the ad I saw on Shabbos. It was embarassing!!
Claim: This list will create less shidduchim redd to aniyim:
As someone who has been told that before, I would trust NASI much more with backing up the claim, since the money would be in escrow and not in the hands of a wealthy person whose daughter just got engaged and now has loads of expenses.
Claim: This will just make the professional shadchanim more aggressive.
“Each of them can only marry one girl.”
Just wait until the next game changing concept is unveiled to the public.
AZ-
(Dr. Pepper. Why don’t you ask NASI to insist that all your suggested guidlines be required for any shadchan getting the list :), but don’t waste your time it’s not happening
For those of you who are not familiar with the suggested guidelines that were mentioned a few months ago in different threads I’ll post it again. While it may sound like common sense and basic courtesy, apparently many shadchanim are seriously lacking those middos.
1. Don’t lie- If someone asks a question it usually means that it’s important to them. It’s not up to you to decide what’s important or not.
2. Don’t stalk- I found it creepy when Shadchannim found out who I previously dated and who I was currently dating. It’s none of your business and if you “happened” to have found out somehow you are not allowed to share this information!
3. Don’t give my name out without my permission- If I never asked you to put my name on your list but you got it from my yeshiva please ask me before distributing it. It’s not fair to my friends, neighbors, Rabbeim and relatives to get numerous calls about me when I can’t possibly date all of them anyway. It’s also not fair to me to get a reputation as a guy who says “no” to everyone.
4. Don’t use excessive pressure- If it’s a “no” then it’s “no”, if I need more information then I’ll let you know.
AZ, you even agreed with me that my list was ==>”common sense and basic middos.“<==
As the CEO of NASI why wouldn’t you enforce those guidelines?
How did 22 become old, all of the sudden? If a girl went to HS, and then seminary, and now is in college to learn a profession to be able to support a husband, how could she graduate before 22, anyway? Is she suppposed to get married while in college? Not very easy to do or practical.
She could get married before college. Or in college. Since when is college an impediment to marriage? It shouldn’t be. Especially since marriage is a lot more important.
If she plans on being the breadwinner so that her husband can learn, she should certainly be most of the way finished with her schooling before she gets married. Last I heard, schools frowned upon new mothers bringing their infants/small children to class. Of course there is always FP, but I dont want to go there.
AZ – What happened to the 72 Roshei Yeshiva whom you claimed endorsed NASI; you used to rant about them in all of your earlier NASI posts?
What exactly about this system is going to motivate someone, especially a girl, to be part of it?
I wouldn’t be surprised if girls, especially older girls/girls who society deems “undesirable,” just leave this system and go to more modern circles. They may not get the “best boy in yeshiva” but at least they have a chance of being part of a society that respects who they are, and marry someone who respects them as a person, not as a checkbook, family tree, or Barbie doll…..
Dear NASI,
I applaud your efforts in an area where few have tread and been successful. However, I and many of my family members, married friends and single friends are completely appalled at your newest “Game Changing” Shidduch Program. My feelings resulting from this campaign, take on numerous levels.
Firstly, in order to engender confidence in your campaign you absolutely must list the rabbi or rabbanim that are endorsing this project. Especially with the amounts of money involved.
Secondly and most importantly, I feel like it is high time that someone put an end to the extortion of the money of single girls. Many a tzedaka organization promises tefillos at mikomos hakedoshim and/or by gedolei hador in exchange for exorbitant amounts of money. My emunas chachachim will not allow me to believe that the these same gedolim are aware of the extent and nature of the propaganda broadcasted in every paper across the globe to get people awaiting yeshuos to donate money. This same emuna, has caused me to withhold comment on these practices, due to respect for the gedolim. Instead I have endured my pain in silence. However, I can be silent no more in the face of your latest scheme.
“Olam Chesed Yibaneh” does not only refer to Hatzoloh, Bikur Cholim, Misaskim, or Bonei Olam. How far have we fallen that we are selling mitzvos and chasadim with regard to shidduchim. Why is this tzarah different than any other, that it permits preying on people’s emotions and desperation in order to create incentive to do a chesed. The world exists on chesed and who knows if our generation’s challenge is to do the chesed of redding shidduchim l’shem shamayim. Is a single girl a house on the real estate market? Perhaps next you will suggest that every family give dues to Hatzoloh in case we need them chas v’shalom, in order to cover their costs.
I hope that this letter will change your perspective with regard to your newest “game”, (Sadly, to us, singles this is is far from a “game”) and may it be the will of Hakadosh Baruch Hu, the ultimate and only shadchan, to send zivugim to all of Bnos Yisroel b’kavod u b’karov.
Sincerely,
A “Priceless” Bas Yisroel
My Love and Support Always,
Shoshana
This is not my work; it expressly states my sentiments.
I was asked to advise that there will be a full detailed explanation that explains and answers every single question raised here.
1. why does it start at 22
2. why does it go up each year
3. why are there no R”Y names on it
etc etc…
I’m told the full detailed explaination will appear in various newspapers.
So far 99% of the people who have seen the full explanation have had a 180 degree turnaround and now are fully on board with the project and program.
I look forward to hearing back after you see it.
Here’s one such example:
Let us be mispallel that, beezras hashem, this plan ultimately serve as the game changer it is hoped to become. I stand in awe of the zechusim of those who are working so hard to be the shluchim to bring this potential yeshua to Klal Yisroel.
BEYOND THE KNEE JERK REACTION
Nice letter except for the part about Hatzalah which I didn’t understand.
With very few exceptions, the theme of this thread has been bash NASI and their attempts to solve an acknowledged problem.
Any concrete suggestions from the esteemed members of the CR to help facilitate the setting up of older singles?
apushatayid-
Anyone that’s been here long enough and read the shidduchim threads knows that AZ is the head of NASI. When he writes things like “I’m told the full detailed explaination will appear in various newspapers.” we lose respect for NASI and some may write thing that we otherwise would not.
Furthermore, as you can see from my post above- AZ agrees with my list but for some reason he doesn’t want to enforce it on shadchanim before letting them have the list. Makes you wonder…
I’m no expert in shidduchim, the list above is a sampling from the abuse I suffered at the hands of too many ruthless shadchanim, but if everyone would offer their ideas and some experts could see which ones have substance- maybe we could get somewhere.
AZ: sorry that example was not one that would change my mind. I still feel its wrong.
Any concrete suggestions from the esteemed members of the CR to help facilitate the setting up of older singles?
Guys should get married at 19. That way the overbalance of girls will move the other way.
BTW, I hope that is the “behind the scenes plan” That AZ/Moshe discusses in the letter via the “structural changes by the Roshei Yeshiva”.
While I am at it, AZ, the money has to be put in an escrow account by a reputable law firm, not some vague promises that the money will be available when needed.
gavra_at_work: guys getting married at 19? i think thats a bit young, no? although on the other hand i do think its important for boys and girls to marry young so they can grow together…
gavra_at_work: guys getting married at 19? i think thats a bit young, no? although on the other hand i do think its important for boys and girls to marry young so they can grow together…
Why? Because they need to be able to earn a living? 🙂 Kollel is cheaper than bais medrash tuition!
heh heh. 19 year old guys.
We’d have a different shidduch crisis. Women not being willing to marry kids.
Here’s a possible solution to the problem. I’ve been told that the Chassidim have the opposite problem, more eligible boys than girls. If this is the case, maybe its time for Litvish girls to look into Chassidish boys.
Dr. Pepper – I agree; enough with this AZ-NASI con game.
AZ, do not pray on our desperate Jewish women with another gimmick. Hashem is m’shadeich z’vugim and does not partner in such hurtful ways. And your parnosseh will also come, regardless.
heh heh. 19 year old guys.
We’d have a different shidduch crisis. Women not being willing to marry kids.
Only if you call a 19 year old kid straight out of sem a “woman”.
I certainly wouldn’t.
NASI (AZ): You don’t really help your credibility, when you play games with us, pretending to not be who you are, and to not know what you know.
I think a large part of the problem is that guys get redt many girls at a time, from many different shadchanim, sometimes 3-4 girls at a time from the same shadchan. This leaves many girls “hanging” while a few guys are “looking into things”. Perhaps the girls should get the names of the guys first, and once a girl says yes, the onus on the guy to say either yes or no, is concrete, not just “i’m looking into it”.
Try this one folks: Make a new takana that no girl can go out until they are at least 21 and have a degree or a solid job. That way it will even out the age gap and also help homes have a stable income from the start.
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