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How did a legit halachic discussion devolve into a 3rd grade “you have cooties” fight? Sad.
Syag
By a woman getting involved
דעתן קלותMen are mashpia and women are mekabel one isn’t greater than the other, they are just different.
Kluger- that answer is kinda lame. When my kids sit around having 3rd grade arguments I don’t join them. It takes two to tango, as they say
what about that frum lady who is a senior person at the NSA. Is she a security risk??
Sorry Rav Kluger. I meant that it does not depend on the empirical per se . Nevertheless I think that empirical data can create a ספק but Rabbosainu can be קובע th that נשים are or aren’t as they were before. Anyway as was stated no one will be lenient because of the status differential but a yereias shomayim will be מחמיר even without a קביעות of Rabbonim.
Bruriah, don’t take Joseph, or anyone attacking your response to Joseph, too seriously. Halachic discussion, my foot. Joseph loves “proving” how inferior women are. Do you know anyone searching very old threads and bringing them back to life? Only someone obsessed with a topic can do that. And answering someone with passion will make you as a woman, a “weak emotional woman” but many men can argue pretty passionately and immaturely, but that’s ok since they are men…
Anyway, whatever. It doesn’t matter, one can argue and bring proofs of what “kalos” means, but I take the way Hashem created me with utmost happiness, with the good and the bad, and wouldn’t want to be a male. Thank you Hashem for creating me according to your will!
philosopher – YES!! exactly! I agree with every word you said!!
wonderful!Do you know anyone searching very old threads and bringing them back to life? Only someone obsessed with a topic can do that.
As long as it’s you saying it. If I say it I’m MO and a Feminist. I mean, why else would I be objecting to this behavior?Thank you for letting it be said! And I join you in Thanking Hashem for making us exactly as He did and creating me according to His will.
Syag, you do realize, don’t you, that Obaminator and Joseph are one and the same person?
I didn’t realize. I just assumed it was someone hoping to set him off.
[shrug]Syag, thanks. Some individuals are so offensive, they can make the most frum women sound liberal when we stick up for ourselves …
“As long as it’s you saying it. If I say it I’m MO and a Feminist. I mean, why else would I be objecting to this behavior?”
Except that isn’t what you said. You accused him of being freid out and not believing in Torah for bumping a thread that you don’t like. I’m one of the meanest people on this site, and yet I think I can confidently say, I’ve never quite gone that far.Wow!
The women on this thread are getting all defensive here!
(And bringing in שעשיני כרצונו to boot)
I hate to wake you from dreamland Neville but if you’ll read back what I *actually* wrote, instead of what you juxtaposed on your own initiative, you will find it didn’t say that at all.
Bruriah: Kiddushin 80b – מ”ט תנא דבי אליהו הואיל ונשים דעתן קלות עליהן
It’s quite notable that certain folks get bent out of shape simply over a discussion of a Chazal. You may not like this Chazal but it is still Chazal.
Joseph, Nashim Da’atan… “Kalos”?
If you’re going to make this quote your life’s battle cry, it would be more impressive if you got it right.
The gemara in Kiddushin (80b) actually says kalos. You can look it up, and at the same time see the context (after Tisha B’av).
Your blind spot is thinking that it is the Chazal we don’t like when (as has been clearly mentioned and ignored above more than once) it’s your use of it.
Working is for women the men should all be learning so I think the person asking this question has to ask himself why is he not in Yeshiva why is he just trolling around being scared of girls…. just some thoughts.
Joseph, we like every single Chazal. We frum women are not trying to become dayanim and poskim, we are happy the way we are, with the daas we we’re created with and for the purpose we were created for. What we don’t like is YOUR continuous interpretations of Chazal and other Torah sources that denigrate women. For me personally, as someone who has suffered from controlling individuals, this type of weird obsession of yours of how superior men are to women shows something much deeper – it shows that you disrespect and try to cheapen women. It is worrisome if you have a wife or daughters. Some have pointed out that it is doubtful that there exists women in your life…
Either way, continuously talking in a denigrating way regarding women ( like only women are scared of bears…remember this recent moiredige comment of yours?) is senseless sinas chinum that serves no purpose. Today is the day to remember that the Bais Hamikdosh was destroyed because of sinas chinum and by you trying to hide your sinas chinum behind Torah sources is particularly offensive. Sinas chinum’s only purpose is for individuals to feel superior that they are more chushev than “inferior” individuals. And usually this krum mentality involves mental, physical and/or emotional abuse of others when it is within the power of the superior feeling individual to do so.This topic of what “daton kalos” means and what the halachic ramications are is actually an interesting one. Since it’s Tisha BaAv I won’t go into the topic itself. The only bothersome thing with topics like these is when one has an agenda behind these threads. There are people who ask “where is Hashem?” And there are people who ask “where is Hashem?” People can have the same questions but what their intentions are behind the questions and behind bringing up topics can be very different.
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You see that isn’t true by the simple fact that the mere discussion of ND”K got you all bent out of shape. There clearly was no misinterpretation or misapplication of Chazal’s concept. If there was anyone can happily point out specifically which comment they think misinterpreted Chazal’s application of ND”K, Yet no one has because there is nothing to point out. There was nothing here than a vanilla discussion of this Chazal when you got all angry and agitated for no reason other than your not liking to hear of this Chazal. Of course you’re embarrassed to admit that you don’t agree with the Chazal so you instead go after the messenger with nebulous factually lacking tantrums vacant of any argument.
I again invite you or anyone to actually quote any comment of mine and point out what exactly you disagree of its interpretation of the Chazal and explain how you understand that Gemorah. But we all know in advance that you won’t do this because you can’t do this because nothing I said is anything more than a mere citation of the plain Chazal. It is the Chazal itself, despite your assertions otherwise, that you disagree with. But the invitation still stands.
Then you rant about sinas chinum in the very same comment that you go on to make ad hominem personal attacks. As anyone can notice, none of my comments contained any such element. It is only the antagonists that engaged in such behavior.
“….when you got all angry and agitated for no reason other than your not liking to hear of this Chazal. Of course you’re embarrassed to admit that you don’t agree with the Chazal so you instead go after the messenger with nebulous factually lacking tantrums vacant of any argument.”
Thats called an inference.
Enjoy the rest of your day.
“I again invite you or anyone to actually quote any comment of mine and point out what exactly you disagree of its interpretation of the Chazal and explain how you understand that Gemorah. ”
It was pointed out clearly and explicitly that the response came from your timing. You know that because you read it in at least three posts. Here’s the connection again – the problem was not with the holy words of chazal, it was with you DIGGING THRU SIX YEAR OLD THREADS SPECIFICALLY DURING THE NINE DAYS TO CAUSE DERISION.
Period.Honestly, I have not read any of your posts, if there are any, on the opinion of what nd”k means. Just the mere fact, that I have not been on YWN for a while and come back and what do I see? Joseph posting a comment of only women being scared of bears and bringing up a thread from 2011 about women…again. This is when I have had continuous arguments with you on different threads that supposedly “prove” that men can subjegate their wives, before I took a break from YWN. I would be very surprised that in the interim there were no threads by you “proving” how inferior we are. These are personal attacks from you against women.
As I’ve said before, I, and other women who have chimed in, have no problem with any Chazal, despite your arguing otherwise. This is another attack you make against us women- that since we don’t agree with your and your intentions, we supposedly c”v don’t agree with Chazal.
Please explain to us what your intention is when the vast majority of your threads and comments is about “proving”, according to YOUR VERSION of Yiddishkeit, that women are inferior to men.
Syag, There have been older threads than this revived. If a six year old cholent recipe thread was bounced, would you also have gotten all bent out of shape? Of course not. It was only because you didn’t like the topic of this Chazal that you are behaving the way you are.
“It was pointed out clearly and explicitly that the response came from your timing. You know that because you read it in at least three posts. Here’s the connection again – the problem was not with the holy words of chazal, it was with you DIGGING THRU SIX YEAR OLD THREADS SPECIFICALLY DURING THE NINE DAYS TO CAUSE DERISION.
Period.“Syag,
Why isn’t what you are doing called an inference too
As to the argument a few posters made that there’s no cognitive or intellectual differences between men and women, explain משנה תורה הלכות תלמוד תורה א:יג where the Rambam states “שרוב הנשים אין דעתם מכוונת להתלמד. אלא הן מוציאות דברי תורה לדברי הבאי לפי עניות דעתן.”
Nobody has a problem with people digging up interesting or relevant old threads. It’s when digging up old threads in addition to bringing up topics continously for years to try to prove the inferiority of a large segment of klal Yisreol and even if it would be only one frum Jew… kol shekein the mothers of our entire nation! A little respect is in order but trying constantly to prove our inferiority through Tanach, Gemara, meforshim, is absolutely disgusting and nausciating.
It’s crucial to the intellectual honestly of this discussion to point out that Joseph had not, in fact, actually been familiar with the source material
You weren’t either.
Joseph, nobody claims there’s no difference in female vs male daas. However we can argue with your interpretation of daas into the English words “intelligence or cognizance”. Intelligence in my opinion, is individual, not specifically devided by gender. However, even if we are to argue that intelligence, as defined in the English language, is different in men and women because it is processed differently in male and female brain, nobody, including us women, argued otherwise…
Remember women were taught halacha before men after the giving of the Torah….We are not less intelligent, we have different daas and nobody said otherwise.
As I’ve said before, the problem many of us are having is not with Chazal as you are trying to insinuate, in fact, this topic is a fascinating one and it could make for a rather interesting discussion. The problem we have is that you are trying to prove for months, perhaps even years, or for as long as I’ve been on here, is that women are inferior to men. That is a dangerous notion and not based in Judasim at all. We have specific duties as men and women and despite the fact that men are more dominant IN SPECIFIC AREAS according to halacha, it does not indicate superiority or that women are in servitude of men as we have argued previously. That is a dangerous notion to have. It is more in line with Islam…and that’s why their women are more often than not mistreated.
The problem we have is that you are trying to prove for months, perhaps even years, or for as long as I’ve been on here, is that women are inferior to men. That is a dangerous notion and not based in Judasim at all. We have specific duties as men and women and despite the fact that men are more dominant IN SPECIFIC AREAS according to halacha, it does not indicate superiority or that women are in servitude of men as we have argued previously. That is a dangerous notion to have. It is more in line with Islam…“
While you brought this up I want to say the opposite is just as true
Just because women might be better in SPECIFIC AREAS that doesn’t mean that they’re better than men
This whole notion that women don’t have to do מצוות because they have less problems to take care of vis a vis ה׳ is ludicrous.
The comment only comes about due to (what I feel is) feminism
If women and men realize what they have to take care of is due to themselves that would teach them not that one is BETTER than the other but they are different and should only worry about themselves
Sorry for the rant
Take a look at the hakdamah of Perush Machzor Vitri on Avos (printed in every Yachin u Boaz Mishnaos).
See there in the hakdomah where the ma’atikai hashmuah (authoritative transmitters of the Torah) are listed. Get to the part where Devorah and Boaz are listed among the ma’atikai ha-Shmuahin of their generation. Next, take a deep breath and look at the shinuy girsot (sourced from the Sefer HaKaneh if I remember correctly) that Devorah received the Torah and transmitted it to Barak. Now meditate on the implications of that.Ca- not sure what set that off but …okay. works for me.
Syag,
Just that comment specifically and this thread in general brought up a mishpacha article from a few weeks ago that got me very upset
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Coffee addict, I don’t remember where I’ve read it, but this is attributed to a tzaddik whom I’ve forgotten his name, who said that women have less mitzvos because they are on a higher spiritual plane.
Regardless where that comes from, I have never read or heard ANY frum person saying that women are better than men, it is just an explanation why women have less mitzvos.
I’m not sure about the Mishpacha article as I’ve not read it, but I highly doubt that they insinuated that women are better than men.
As individuals, male or female , and as a people, we all have strengths and weakness and we were all created with those characteristics so that we can fulfill our potential. We are not better one over the other except for what we make of ourselves. Tzaddikim are higher than simple people because of what they have acheived. That has no bearing to the fact that men are not greater than women or vice versa.
“Of course not. It was only because you didn’t like the topic of this Chazal”
I’ve denied that straight out, and have explained more than once the reason I called you out.
What pure gaava allows you to tell me what I thought and meant in the face of being told the opposite? There are plenty posters who infer a posters intent, but a very small few who are twisted enough to insist their unsupported inferences are true even after being told its wrong.“Coffee addict, I don’t remember where I’ve read it, but this is attributed to a tzaddik whom I’ve forgotten his name, who said that women have less mitzvos because they are on a higher spiritual plane.“
And this is what gets me upset!
That is utter BS!
If that was the case you would have a lot of women that were צדקניות which isn’t the case!
שלמה המלך , the wisest of all people said
“One of a thousand men I have found and even that I haven’t found in women”They might have less potential energy (or kinetic energy, I was never good in science) which means they won’t fall as far but a man could go higher than a women
And until you show me that he was serious and not to just stop all his girl students from pouncing on him or being depressed I won’t believe it one iota
Coffee Addict: What did that Mishpacha article advocate?
CA, I’m not sure what your last two paragraphs are about… What does kinetic energy of male and female have to do with spiritual greatness? Am I missing some deep kabbalistic knowledge here? And I’m not sure about the students you are talking about. Seems to me you know who said women are on a higher spiritual plane as they spoke about that in the Mishpacha article and likely named the person who said it. If so, kindly enlighten us who it was.
A man can, in general, go further spiritually than a women because of the limud haTorah that men study while women are generally busy with the household and children. With that being said, one gender is not automatically greater than the other. Again, it depends on what one acheives as an individual.
Men expressing their feelings (and to teach your boys that you can still be a man if you do)
It was written by a female (at least in pen name)
CA, So Shloime Hemelech found one only good man out of 1,000?! That doesn’t show us that men are generally better than women…If Shloime Hamelech thought women were so bad he wouldn’t have 700 wives and 300 concubines.
Philosopher,
(This at least I do know) when something has less potential energy it doesn’t have a long distance to fall so a woman even though it starts on a higher point since it’s low isn’t as low as a man it can’t reach as high as a man
Which means a woman can never be a צדיק גמור whereas a man can sue to reaching a higher point than a woman
philosopher, women are scared of bears? You’re confusing me with Batman or someone. I’ve never made any comments about women and bears. Are you sure you didn’t see that comment on another site?
Regarding your statement that “we can argue with your interpretation of daas”, I answer absolutely! And I’m more than willing to entertain any argument you proffer. But so far you’ve only objected to the mere idea of discussing this Chazal, as it it is somehow verboten to even discuss.
Indeed I’ll take up your offer to have a discussion on the differences between men and women’s intellectual abilities by again asking for your interpretation of Rambam’s statement of “שרוב הנשים אין דעתם מכוונת להתלמד. אלא הן מוציאות דברי תורה לדברי הבאי לפי עניות דעתן.” (“most women have no set mind to be instructed on studies, but, on the contrary, are apt to divert matters of the Torah to nonsensical matters.”)
I generally don’t comment here anymore, but on Motzei Tisha B’av on this topic, I just had to.
, As with every Agadeteh, “Nashim Daaton Kalos” needs deeper discussion and learning .
So when the males lost patience with Moshe’s return and made the Eigel Hazahav , and All women refused to hand over their jewelry, where was the daas of the men?
And when most of klal Yisrael listened to the loshon hora of the great Torah scholars,the Meraglim handpicked by Moshe Rabbeinu, opening the Tisha Ba’av tragedies, where were the women? The women with their daaton kalos were the only ones who refused to listen …, Look it up.. Also, Tzelafchad’s daughters were an example of women loving EY, as opposed to the great Torah gedolim meraglim and their ilk.So On ben Pelles wants to join Korach’s rebellion…. Mrs. On, the lady with the daas kal, tells him – No way..
Basically telling him, ” You’re a kal siding with Moshe, and you’ll be a kal siding with Korach. You’re nobody and you’ll stay a nobody.”
She saves his life, this lady with a daas kal. How?….. She uncovered her hair, ordered On to stay inside the tent, and stood outside waiting for the Korach holy people including members of the Sanhedrin, who avoided looking at women, who were medakded in tzniyus, who were frum lifnei mishuras hadin….. to show up, knowing they won’t deal with her.And so it was… These frummies , who were medakdek in tzniyus, had no problem in causing a machlokes with killed hundreds if not thousands… Maybe some were even CR posters who may not be well, who preached frumkeit , knocking , mocking and denigrating other Yidden’s hashkofos, but had no issues in dredging up old OPs insinuating slights/insults , DAVKA in the 9 days , and hiding behind Chazals…
Not to mention the males who encouraged avodah zara during malchei Yisroel, male kohanim who desecrated the Bet Hamikdash… not women….
I don’t know what “kal” means, and from what I’ve read, nobody here does either.
So you CR talmidei chachamim , go ahead and pick my post apart if you wish. I will not respond your drivel
no matter how Chazals and seforim you present. Your motivation is not l’shem Shomayim… You know it … We all know it.,CA, ok, it’s an interesting point that you are making regarding women having lower spiritual end points but you don’t quote a source so until I see a source I’ll take it as your opinion.
In any case, I don’t think a woman being a nevuah is such a low spiritual point… And people’s highest spiritual point is set high enough for both men and women – our spiritual potential is immensely great and not in any way “low” for women as you claim it is. I’d be overjoyed if I reach my spiritual potential at 120, even if I don’t end up being a tzaddik gemor…as will most men be happy to reach their potential even if most of them WOULD NOT end up tzakkikim gemirim even if they would fulfill their spiritual potential.
As Reb Zusya of Hanipoli said he will be asked in the next world why he’s did not rise to the level of Rav Zusya, not why he wasn’t a Moshe Rabbeinu.
So as far as I’m concerned, we each have our own spiritual destiny, capabilities and potential that doesn’t hinge only on being male or female but on many other factors.
@ Philosopher
“I don’t think a woman being a nevuah is such a low spiritual point”
Per the source I quoted above it’s even more then that. Devorah was a link in the chain of the authoritative transmitters of Torah. Sarah, Miriam, Ester, and Hulda where also neviot. Ma’atikei HaShmuah is a uniquely special distinction. It is especially interesting because women are not mitzuveh in Talmud Torah and gadol mitzuveh v’oseh. In spite of that she was the shofetes of her generation. Barak even refused to fight Sisra if she did not go with him.
Now, all that remains is for someone to bring up a certain Grmmara in Chulin to attempt to undermine my bringing an example from Devorah.
@ philosopher
“we each have our own spiritual destiny”
True that. But, we also have a collective destiny and when the ladies aren’t on board things go on a hand basket ride to warmer climates in a hurry. Contrast the situation in pre Bais Yaacov Europe with post Bais Yaacov America. It is not for nothing that Rav Aaron famously said he would never have been ab;e to build Lakewood Yeshiva w/o Bais Yaaov.
I don’t get the point of bringing the cases of exceptional women in klal Yisroel’s history.
Are you trying to undermine Chazal’s general statement? Chazal didn’t say there aren’t exceptions. The rule is still true, and the halachos that result are still true regardless of the exceptions.
Non Political, your comments are well said and emes.
DY, Is Sara Schnirer and her students who built bais Yaacovs and saved the Jewish nation from disintegration included in the “exceptions”? And which Chazal rule are you talking about?
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