Naming A Child After Someone With Weird Name

Bracha Channa, huh? That makes 2 of you I know (and the 1st one is a real pistol, too)

I don’t mean to downplay the importance a child’s name may be to grandparent or great grandparent, but Aries, you imply that bribery or the threat of withholding family heirlooms is a tactic used. Is that normal?

It is not bribery at all. It is just the natural order of things. If a child is named for someone you naturally talk about that person to that child. If you have something that belonged to that person, your natural inclination is to give it to that child because it would have some meaning to that particular child, while it would hold little meaning to a child who did not feel the connection. How is that a bribe?

When I gave my daughter something that was her grandmother for whom she is named after it had some value to her and she appreciated the history of the piece, more so than something of another family member. She wore it with a different sense of pride.

LOL!!! That’s like the cemetery joke, why do they have locks on the cemetery gates – because people are dying to get in!

True, sefardim live to have children named for them. Greeks as well.

Aries:

How does this statement of yours…..

“It is not bribery at all. It is just the natural order of things. If a child is named for someone you naturally talk about that person to that child.If you have something that belonged to that person, your natural inclination is to give it to that child because it would have some meaning to that particular child, while it would hold little meaning to a child who did not feel the connection. How is that a bribe?”

Not conflict with this statement…..

“We will not love the baby any less, but we might choose to compensate the parents less for being less than generous in return.”

What does compensation to the parents have to do with anything? What type of generosity is withheld when a baby is not named for someone that you would want it to be named for, that there is your implied threat of withholding compensation? Exactly what type of compensation are we talking about? I understand that if I had a football stadium and you wanted your name in lights across the facade, you would compensate me, but if I give my son or daughter a name that means something to you…….

I really hope that I have absolutely misunderstood what you wrote, because the alternative leaves me at an utter loss for words.

APY, you have. I have said it to my kids and I will explain it to you as well. For all the things that we do for them, for all our acts of generosity and kindness, from monetary to physical help even before the grandkids arrived, and then when they did, the only thing we ask is that they honor our parents with a name. My husband and I don’t even go any further than just our parents, not grandparents, just our parents, that’s it. And we find it hard to understand that our children or anyone’s children cannot give back to their parents for everything they do for them and be a little generous in return when it comes to this small thing about honoring the grandparents with a name and perpetuating their memory.

Why should a parent keep giving, and giving generously when a child cannot be as generous? That is all I am saying. That generosity should work both ways and that a child should recognize an opportunity to give back to a parent in this way if it means so much to them. Why is it such a big deal and why is that considered bribery? That is common decency and kovod Av v’em.

As far as children inheriting what once belonged to their namesake, that’s not bribery. Grandchildren get loads of things from their grandparents, believe me they don’t lose out. However the heirlooms that belong to those particular grandparents will automatically go to the ones that share their name. Is that bribery? No, that is logical.

My mother was niftar 2 months ago. I found my father’s silver becher in her breakfront. It isn’t fancy or big. It is the only piece of silver she hadn’t already distributed among the kids and grandkids. She kept it because my father made kiddush on it every Shabbos and Yom Tov. I gave it to my oldest Grandson. He is only 8 but he is the first one named for my father. He is not the only grandson named for my father. My sister and brother have grandsons named for my father and they have other grandsons, but mine was the first named for my father so he got it. It was logical.

I have my mother’s diamond ring. My daughter will inherit MY diamond ring after 120 and my first granddaughter who is named for my mother will get my mother’s diamond ring. That is my logic. I have b”h have 7 granddaughters at this time. I have other jewelry that they will inherit, but my mother’s ring will go to the one i”H that will carry her name. What is wrong with that?

Aries. Call it what you want. I can tell you this much, and don’t want to discuss this much further. When I asked my Rav if I was obligated under kibbud av to give a name “asked” by my parents the answer was no. You describe in detail a highly charged emotional feeling and an erroneous belief. Your children owe you for a lot, but you have no right to demand how they show that gratitude. You can ask. You can dangle the “compensation”. More than likely none of it is necessary because your own children (in the younger generations for sure) more often than not knew their grandparents and want on their own to name for their grandparents. However, despite your emotions, it is not owed to you, or them.

As an aside. How many Avrahams or Yitzchaks are listed as having gone down to mitzrayim? Not one of the shvatim was named after grandfather Avraham. not one of the shevatim named any of their kids after Yitzchak. Yocheved was not named after any of the imahos. Was Yaackov not persuasive enough? did he dangle the wrong compensation? Were the shevatim a bunch of ingrates?

Of course its an emotional issue and it is a family issue not a halachic issue. That is why I suggested more than once that the OP discuss it with the family members involved and come to terms with it one way or another so that they minimize the hurt. That is why others suggested that the name was a nickname and that the poster ask the parents if the given name was actually something else. Exactly because it is an emotional issue and it is a family issue.

Look I love all my grandchildren the same and have an amazing relationship with my oldest granddaughter who my son and granddaughter chose not to name for my mother-in-law. It hurt at the time but it does not take away anything from our relationship with the child and it doesn’t take away from our relationship with our kids. We forgive our kids anything and everything. Believe me, we all know that kids hurt their parents in many ways. I am just saying that this is one way they should show their own generosity and especially APY said, because they knew their grandparents and so should feel the connection.

But every case is different and we all gave our own personal opinions based on how we each feel. This is how I feel, it doesn’t make it wrong because YOU think it is wrong. This is how it is in my family. It means a lot. If in your family it means nothing, or it doesn’t bother you that your parents don’t have a name, then that’s it. It doesn’t bother you. So we disagree. That doesn’t mean either side is wrong, it means we have a difference of opinions. As far as asking a Rav, the question asked is usually, “do I have to give a name my mother wants me to…..” How many times honestly is the real issue asked. “It is very important to my mother than a name be given for her mother. They were very close and she was just nifter. It is their minhag to give names for their parents, etc. I know she will be very devastated if we don’t name for her mother, but I don’t like the name. What should I do.”

Maybe if the question was really posed as the situation really is, the Rav would ask more questions such as what the nifteres was like, how close was the new parent and his grandmother, etc. before he came to his answer. He might still give the answer to name your own child what you want, or he might change the new parents way of thinking without even giving an answer just by the discussion process. Who knows. All I know is that the answer you receive usually depends on the way the sheilah was presented.

Anyway by now the baby must have been named so what happened?

APY, I wasn’t responding to you specifically I was still responding generally and to the original OP. Please don’t jump to conclusions. Had I meant to address you personally I would have prefaced my post with your name or initials as I did here. And as originally posted it was a girl in question and the name in question was “Hencha”.

APY, I noticed 🙂

Not really, kids are very departmental. They choose everything and anything they want for their newborns, they plan a huge kiddush and/or bris and just expect the parents to pay for it. Why is that? Now I am not speaking about ALL cases I am speaking in a general sense and many parents here will understand what I am saying.

Do the kids ask the parents, what they wish to contribute? How many guests they can invite? What they are expected to pay for themselves and what the parents wish to pay for? Even what one side is paying for and what the other side is paying for if the mechutanim don’t discuss this amongst themselves? Not usually, usually the kids are just thinking about themselves and what they want and that is not fair. Especially in a family that they belong to and know that naming after grandparents is a bid deal and a big issue. In the case where it is a big issue and they want to make the choices for themselves, they should then step up to the plate and stand on their own two feet in the other areas of being the parents and taking on the responsibilities of being the parent. That’s all I’m saying. Why not say to their parents “I know that you want me to name the baby for Bubby and you will be hurt if I don’t, but I don’t want to or my wife doesn’t want to, so I will pay for the kiddush myself, it is my responsibility.

Better yet, why do kids “expect” that their parents are footing the bill to begin with. Why shouldn’t they expect to pay for everything themselves and just be surprised and grateful when parents help out? My friend used to say “If you want me to shut my mouth, tell me first to shut my purse”.

Or better yet, why wait until the baby is born to discuss this. Why not have these discussions way in advance so that it is not a shock when the baby is named?

For those of us who understand it is a big issue, then you know how big an issue it really is. For those of you who don’t understand that it is a big issue, you will never understand how big an issue it is. I am not going to divulge the details but I was hurt in this area and my mother was deeply, deeply hurt in this area and SHE was right. What happened was very, very wrong and her grandson new better. Even though life goes on, the pain she felt never left her because this particular grandson who should have named for my father and didn’t was the oldest grandson, the one who knew my father the best and the one who was so close to my father he could tell you about his heart rhythm. There wasn’t anything my father didn’t do for this child and that included taking him horseback riding and lending him his car when he got his license at 17, and he never ever lent his car to anyone up to that point. This grandson, the oldest, and my son, the youngest were shadows of my father.

So again, those who do not understand the emotions involved in this issue will just never understand. And those that do understand what I am talking about. Maybe it is our age difference and that we at this point are at other ends of the spectrum and see things through different lenses.

Aries, I am not a grandparent, I am a parent, and one with children approaching shidduchim, so I am not what one would call a young, or a new parent. It is clear we travel in very different circles. In the circle I move in, kids do NOT expect anything but parental guidance from their parents. They do not expect, or assume their parents will pay for everything, or anything. The attitude of your friend and their child(ren) is foreign to the circle I travel in (no, it is not a tiny circle, so wipe that smirk off your face 🙂

I guess it is why my reaction to your statements above were of shock and amazement. Sure there are spoiled kids and lousy parents in the circle I travel in, but it is not the norm, certainly not the norm you describe. If the attitudes expressed by parents and children are the norm in your circle then I can understand why you feel the way you do.

“Its only a custom” – So who decides the rules? If its only a custom than why name at all make up a new name and that will be an iyluy. How will it be an iyluy if its only a custom?

APY, then why do we name after tzadikim and rabbonim? Who made that rule? And who had the gold? Where did that custom come from?

Better question is if someone has a “weird name” (and no other name), should he or she be referred to by some other, non-weird, nickname?

Lots of Yiddish names were nicknames and abbreviations of two names. We should be giving Hebrew names, not Yiddish, so I suggest you find a Hebrew equivalent, unless its for a parent and the name wouldn’t embarrass the child.

I loved my In-Law;s AA’H, but when they suggested horrible names, I felt bad, but had to say no. Good thing my wife felt the same way.

In fact, do you know the origins of “Moshe”…? “

Yeah. It’s in the TORAH. And just in case you want to make an issue of the fact that Batya, daughter of Pharaoh, named him, the Torah says she said, “ki min hamayim mishisihu.” That is still Loshon Kodesh we are reading there, even if she named him in Egyptian.

Joseph: You missed the point. People often give their kids Yiddish names, named for a relative, as they were called in Europe. Many of those names were combinations of two names merged as a nickname and not their given Torah name.

Also, I can mention some Yiddish names that are way to horrible to give a kid. When you have kids, ask and I’ll tell you, but only if you’ll use them.

You got my curiosity piqued, LF. What was that not all common name and what is the backup name that usually goes along with it?

I met someone once who told me this story about herself:

She was a little girl in Hebrew School and the teacher said that all of the students had to go by their Hebrew names in class, so whoever didn’t know their Hebrew names had to find out for homework.

My friend asked her Bubby, “What’s my Hebrew name?” Her Bubby told her, “Yuchfoot.” My friend dutifully reported to her teacher that her Hebrew name was ‘Yuchfoot.’ The teacher said “That can’t be right. Ask your bubby to write it down in Alef-Bais.”

Are you ready?

Her name was……

Yocheved!

It just goes to show…..

Shprintza Henna Raizel Gitty Batsheva. But everyone calls her Batsheva, cuz all the other names are ugly.

That’s not very nice. Maybe if you knew me you wouldn’t say that.

Pleeeeease don’t name your child a name where she will be uncomfortable! My friend suffered her way through school with a similar name! If you really want to name her that than add another name and call her by that! Ex: Hentcha Devora=debby, Devora…

Aries, I read through your post and I could hear the pain you and your mother went through at your father’s name not being given to your grandson. I agree that young people blessed with a new neshama to name should be sensitive and try not to cause pain to their parents. And I agree when you say that it’s a good idea to discuss it before the actual naming so there is no surprise and hurt at the simcha. But your friend who will “shut her mouth when she shuts her purse”?! Strongly disagree!

As parents it is our pleasure to help our children, financially and otherwise, even when they’ve flown the nest and are busy building their own. (Maybe especially then?) And when helping them is a burden we feel we can’t manage, of course we should tell them and not make ourselves sick trying to give more than we can. But giving money, gifts, time, does not give us a right to interfere in their lives or meddle in their issues. I just don’t see the connection. If it makes you happy, give them gifts, give them cash, but remember to give them the gift of independence!

And by the way, when I serve my husband a nice dinner, I don’t tell him either that he can only eat if he takes the garbage out afterwards. And when he helps me out or indulges me with a gift, he doesn’t make it contingent on my reciprocating by providing goods or services. Economic models work well when arranging cash flow analyses and budgeting. Loving relationships exist on a separate plane.

As usual, golfer, a voice of reason (although I doubt Aries reads the CR any longer).