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One more point, Mrs. Katz.
I’m not sure what goes on in E”Y, but it may be worthwhile offering your siblings there some financial help.
Golders Greener, I’m not sure which post you reaD, but the post that i started mentioned numerous poskim [Tzitz Eliezer, Yabia Oimer, R’ S. Z. Auerbach, Rabbi Y. S. Elyashiv, plus] who do not seem to think that shoes are included in clothing for kovod shabbos. You can find my post by scrolling down to the bottom of the screen, and selecting “Shabbos,” from the topic menu, and you will see it under recent discussions.
Mrs. Katz, one more point.
I would not advise you to appraoch your mother in law on any of these indivual issues, because if you show the need to convince her, that in itself is empowering her.
Hello, you guys seem to have shoe fever. It normally happens before the new school year or before yomim toivim, but i guess better late than never. I am still trying to work on a vaccine.
Your case is interesting, because I’ve had loads of koillel yungerleit coming in the day before their siblings weddings and saying that their mothers insist that they buy their children Shabbos shoes, and yes i’ve even had the ones who live in Israel with all their boys in sneakers and sandals.
Regarding your children taking their shoes off at home, I always tell parents that if they want their chidlren to actually wear their shoes, they should buy them the most comfortable pair, and keep away from shoes that are too stiff or heavy – and definitley do not buy shoes that your children are ashamed of.
Regarding taking off shoes indoors as a minhag aveilus, it’s interesting, some people seem entirely unbothered, – they’ll even let their children run to buy a coke in the shop next door in their socks, while others seem to take it really seriously, and will make their children put their shoes even to take a couple of steps in the store. One mother told me recently that her children will not say kaddish or walk around in socks as long as she is alive. [the store owner once asked a rov, and he said that in the store it is 100% OK, it’s like a place where everyone walks without shoes, such the security in the airport etc…]
It might just disturb your mother in law if your children have loads of holes in their socks with dirty toe nails poking through – it defintley disturbs me.
Regarding shabbos shoes, it’s definitely the norm, and i don’t know if it is a good idea not to buy older children shabbos shoes if all their friends have.
Anyway, it’s lovely to see that all you guys have shoe fever, and viva la shoes!!!!
By the way, tell your mother in law, that all the studies agree that it is much healthier to wlk around – even outdoors – without shoes.
Whiteberry, i never advise putting shoes on children in a way that they cannot take them off, it is not a good idea.
ybrooklyn teacher, you are smarter than i realised.
much healthier to wlk around – even outdoors – without shoes.”
True, but they mean BAREFOOT, not in stocking or sox feet.
I remember reading somewhere that the reason Kenyan (and runners from other sub-saharan countries) do so well in marathons is because the muscles in their feet are more fully developed since growing up they walked around barefoot. Walking barefoot requires that you use all parts of your foot, while walking in shoes, especially those that are not a good fit, do not.
Sounds like my idea was a real good one!
Can everyone please go to
www/theyeshivaworld.com/cofferoom/topics/confiscatingshoes
and sign up for the most brilliant idea since sliced bread.
Oomnis 1105, there are numerous benefits to the feet walking around in stocking feet too. It enables the feet to breathe and sweat easier, retain their natural shape – specially important for growing feet, puts more weight on the toes than shoes do and less on the arch – all in all it is quite a good idea.
Virtually all the marital arts insist on not wearing shoes.
Sorry everyone, but there isn’t even a clear source for a child not to say kaddish during his parents life time.
Many kehillos, such as belz, and many sefardishe, are not makpid bichlal.
Someone asked the Steipler zt@l, and he said that since today it is not usually done, and people migth assume that he has no longer got arents, it is not a good idea.
anyway, parents, or parents in law shouldn’t get involved in childern’s lives.
My sister was told by her mother in law to buy her children shabbos shoes before a chasuna, and her mil said she would pay, but my sister refused. And you know somehting, she was right.
Golders greener one the very few things i take seriously is my kids not saying kadish.
mrs. katz, i recently offered to buy my mother in law shaabos shoes, and she now she really thinks i’m crazy and won’t talk to me, so gee thanks…
My sister was told by her mother in law to buy her children shabbos shoes before a chasuna, and her mil said she would pay, but my sister refused. And you know somehting, she was right. “
Why do you believe it is correct to stand on ceremony and not allow a Bubby to buy pretty shoes for her aineklach l’kovod a simcha? It brings great joy to grandparents to buy such items for their grandchildren. I bought my granddaughter her first pair of dressy Shabbos shoes (and several thereafter), and had such nachas to see her wearing them. I love to buy special occasion items for my grandchildren. They know it’s from Bubby and Zaydie, and they really appreciate it. Even if you believe it is not for the right reason (in your opinion), a daughter-in-law (OR DAUGHTER) shouldn’t take away such a simple pleasure from her MIL. It creates hurt feelings – and for what purpose???? Just expressing my own feelings as a loving bubby.
Oomnis i get your point
mils can ruin a marriage if their child (son or daughter) lets them.
keep that in mind 24/7
Oomnis, it depends a lot on the way it is doen. If someone critisises her dil and tells her that her children look neglected, and she wants them to wear different shoes on shabbos, or “there is now ay they arre coming to the chasuna looking like that” then they are asking for trouble.
Yes, a caring and doting – and responsible bubby can buy her grandkiks shabbos hsoes, but it can also be done very wrong.
Remember slao that if the children live abroad or in a different community, they may feel uncomfortable standing etc…
Bottopm line, it all depends on seichel
ybrooklynteacher, You may not realize, you’re conversing with the smartest, most knowledgeable, caring, understanding Bubby, AND MOTHER-IN-LAW. I may not know her personally, I know her BETTER, through her numerous smart, insightful, on-the-mark posts.
ZK, I hope you mean me (I am just that gaivehdig!!!) 😉
No, you know where you stand, head is generally well secured and fastened. From your practical, wise, meaningful posts you reveal much about yourself and attitude. There aren’t too many people around that engage head before mouth (and pen, keyboard). Moreover, having emotions is a very important human characteristic. Not letting it overrun you is the trick. Again, I think you stand out in this talent too. (in my humblekite I think one must be aware of one’s positive attributes too)
My engaged head is starting to swell, I fear. But I do thank you for those very kind words, and humbly acknowledge the sentiment behind them. You are right about one needing to recognize one’s positive attributes, as long as we also recognize that they come from Hashem l’chatchilah, and then we get to improve upon them, as He directs us to.
i really feel privileged to be communicating with you, oomnis!
Mrs. Katz.
Not every one here are qualified to be Bubbies. (their Bubbies told them, through mesorah, that the correct spelling is ‘Bubbies’).
Furthermore, a wise, caring Bubby will know when to offer and when to stand back (biting her lips) silently. Remember, she also had a MIL. More – the DIL will (hopefully) also be a MIL, the words of Pirkei Avos come to light ?? ????? ?????, ???? ??????? ??????. There’s a Yiddish expression for that, ???? ??? ???, ??? ??? ??? ???. It all comes back, ??? ???? ???. Treat her nicely. It doesn’t cost any money.
I believe dil should always lovingly and happily accept and cherish anything and everything their mil offers, whether advice or gifts.
i really feel privileged to be communicating with you, oomnis!”
Wow, my sheitel no longer fits!!!!!! (thank you, most humbly) I feel privileged to be able to communicate en masse with so many people who otherwise are not those with whom I was so likely to come in contact. This is a wonderful place to get to know an eclectic group of frum people, and I appreciate the diversity. I have learned a great deal. here from all of you. It’s really true that mekall melamdai hiskalti.
I;m sure all you guys are amazing bubby’s and judge every situation really well, but i feel that in a general case, a mil should limit herself to neutral gifts – nosh toys etc…, and not give gifts like paying for summer camp or buying shabbos shoes, which are the parents right to decide on. “
Mrs. Katz, I respect and do understand your position. I probably could not disagree more with you, but clearly you have your reasons for feeling as you do.
I hope you will re-consider your approach, only because though you are correct that certain things are within the purview of parents to do for their own children, there are things parents cannot always provide for whatever reason. When that happens and a grandparent is both willing and able to help out, it is a gesture of love. I don’t believe in spoiling children, but I do not look at Shabbos shoes in that way.
The thing to do is to discuss these things with between the parents and married children, and express your feelings ont he subject, while at the same time understanding that there is always more than one correct way to come to a bottom line. Mutual respect is always important, but in the final analysis, a parent is owed that respect just by virtue of being the parent. Likewise, in-law parents need to be sensitive to express themselves in a non-autocratic manner, and to be helpful in ways that actually help. When it causes Sholom Bayis problems, they need to step back.
BTW, do you feel this way also about in-laws paying their children’s rent or mortgages, food and utility bills? Or is it only for things that directly pertain to their aineklach? I am not saying this with an obnoxious attitude. I want you to think about it. Often the same kids who are feeling intruded upon when the parents want to pay to send the kids to camp or buy nice dresses for a chasunah, are the one who think nothing of having their rent paid for a couple of years, by those parents.
If I may chime in.
When I was growing up, we were told somthing that sounds very simliar and it could well be that it’s true and you don’t get the concept. And by the way becuase I was brought up this way I can’t stand when my son dose it so I will ask him to wear slippers. Some children & even grown ups have a habbit of kicking there shoes off under the table. We were told that it’s not Shabbosdig to go around with out shoes because an Avul go’s with out shoes during the week. That is still true today, So basicly you can understand the concept. Now for you to get the kids to not kick there shoes off is a chalange and for her to get that is even harder because she had kids a long time ago. And I think you can tell her I understand about the not wearing shoes on shobbos, but for kids its hard and you will work on it at home.
About her having different opinons is like this. If it’s in her house she can have her rules but if they affect you? what ever they are you need to decide if you can live with them or not. If not, then try not to go there. Trust me, It took me a while. I got very nervous every time my father inlaw bud in everytime I had somthing to tell my young children. Every time I sang a song he told me how it go’s different, and some other things. I didn’t argue with him. I just stopped going there for Shabbos at one point. I have all different excuses, not to go there and they are all true. That’s what he accomplished. My biggest excuse is the best. It’s Shabbos and I need my own bed. I’m a little older than I was ten years a go.
In your house? you are the boss. Yes, every one gets respect, but the rules are yours. If you say plastic plates then its plastic. no arguments needed. I think the problem is, and corect me if I’m wrong. You start feeling put down, if everything is not the way she wants. But you know what it dosnt matter a bit. What you could do is, next time she comes serve everyone on plastic and serve her on china if she asks you why say respectfuly. We usally use plastic to make it easier for us on motzie Shabbos but I know you like China so L’Chovod You I took out china. If she has brains sh’ll say you dont have to.
But then on the other hand. It could well be that your MIL was brought up in a home where they stressed issues on Chovod Shabbos, that’s what it sounds like. About the shoes, and here about China. My grandparents hardly took out a plastic plate and buying a dishwasher was never a thought. So that gos back to the your house her house rules.
Is she from Eroupe by any chance? over there they are very in to China 🙂
For everyone who thinks that her husband has to keep the halacha of kibud aim is wrong! It says that once a son gets married his obligation to his wife. He needs to stick to her and she is who he is responsible for once he signs the kesuba.
Imagine a parent saying i will pay your rent but only if you live in a particular place? i will pay tuition but only in a certain school. i accept that this is not quite the same, but any parent who decides things for their grandchildren is overstepping her boundaries. “
Believe it or not, there ARE parents who do exactly that. Their gifts come with strings attached. And I believe that is very wrong. There is a world of difference between that and buying shoes for grandchildren. Ask yourself WHY you feel the parents do not want their kids to have the shoes. we are not talking about them spoiling them with an Xbox or Disney Vacation, or even unnecessary designer jeans, just a pair of Shabbos shoes. Way too much fuss is being made over this, in my very humble opinion.
And just as an aside, though it’s really not a big deal, my screen name is oomis (a nickname form of “ema”)
shtarkish
Not to get off topic, the exact reverse is true:
??? ???? ???? ?????, ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????, ???? ????? ?????
OOmis, i agree that there is way too much of a deal being made over the shoes, but i think mrs. katz’s basic point is correct, and is a big deal. Mother in laws should not be running their children’s lives.
i personally do not buy my childrn Shabbos shoes, many poeple in england don’t, and i think that it important for children to realise that to look fance (smart in england) does not need to cost money, it can be achievec by a bit of work of polishing shoes. it teaches them kovoid shabbos much more than simply wearing a diferent pair of sheos, it teaches them that they do not need everyhting that they see by their friends. However big or small our reasons are, it is our decision, not my parents or parents in law.
Shabbos shoes themselves are not a big issue, nor are paper plates or walking around in socks, what is a VERY BIG ISSUE, is that mrs. katz has had a VERY TRYING yom tov, with a mother in law who does not know limits.
?? ???? ??? ????? but say your kids live in eretz yisroel, and seemingly pople there do not have shabbos sheosm your children will probably not wnat to be the rich americans on the block with shabbos shoes. when i grew up no one had shabbos sheos, and perhaps in soem places parents consider it to be spoiling their chidlren, etc..
ZK. Yes, that is true, but “viduvak bishto” also has implications. Always best to speak to a Rav when the spouse and parents are pulling in opposite directions.
Imagine a parent saying i will pay your rent but only if you live in a particular place? i will pay tuition but only in a certain school. i accept that this is not quite the same, but any parent who decides things for their grandchildren is overstepping her boundaries.
Oomis, and if the money was so that your child could live in Iran and/or go to Our Lady of Grace High, I think you would reconsider.
No one is responsible to support anyone. If someone decides out of the goodness of their heart, or in an attempt to direct their children/grandchildren on what they believe is the right path, to offer an incentive, the couple/parents are within rights to refuse such incentive. There is nothing wrong with it being offered.
In this case, the grandparent is allowed to buy shoes, but if the parents don’t like them, they can always resell them on E-bay.
I feel really privileged to communicate with the a bubby like oomis, and even more priviliged to have been agreed with by goldres greener. (2nd time on this thread!)
???? ???… ????????
BTW,oomis, i always thought your name was short for omnisprescent!
Hey guys, i had a real live koillel girl form israel in my store today whose mil told her to buy five boys shabbos shoes beforer her sister in law’s wedding tomorrow, and she even sent in the shoe that she had bought for all her other grandchildren. how does that go for divine providence?
anyway, when her kids were busy running around the shop in their black socks, having left their black sneakers all over the place (BTW, they didn’t look all that cheap) i asked if she resents her ma-in-law telling her to buy sheos. she was amazed at the question and didn’t understand what to resent. (And her mil has offered them financial incentives to return to the gold ole US)
And i asked her if the kids school has ever told her kids to remove their shoes. By this stage she was really amazed, however she explained that Israeli schools have concrete floors in the classrooms, and you wouldn’t want your kids using their bathrooms unshod.
So, mrs. katz, i have some real good ideas if you want your kids to keep their shoes on….
Hey i missed out some of the best parts.
1) the mil told her daughter in law that the children should wear their knew shabbos shoes all day, that they should be more comfortable by the chasuna, but they shouldn’t go to the park, or anywhere not to truin them.
2) since the kids came in sneakers, which normally end higher and fit the foot tighter than regular shoes, i always wait a few minutes to give the feet a chance to relax and resume their natural shape before fitting them. so they really ran all over in their socks. hope they are not realated to your mil.
soory oomis – i always thpought your name oonmis, a play on the french une ms. one lady!
I feel a bit like that mahts one were they keep on repeating PEDMAS time and time again.
SSA, shoes are not a big issue, paper plates are not a big issue, and the average person does not resent her mother in law buying her children shoes.
HOWEVER, every person seriously resents being controlled by a mother in law. A mother in law who tells a grandchild shabbos shoes are a waste of money, or inversely, your mother neglects you, i will buy you shabbos shoes, or even i don’t care what you do in e”y, but you are not coming to my chasuna in your dirty clompy sneakers, is seriously overstepping her boundaries, and is sure to be resented by her dil.
The thread of this post was not is it normal to buy your grandchildren a second pair of shoes for shbbos, i am 100% sure that in MOST cases both the parents and children appreciate it, the point was how hsould mrs. katz deal with a controlling personality.
Exactly, if you are saying everyone is making a big deal of nothing, it could be because you do not have a controlling mother-in-law or are one yourself! However, “ybrooklynteacher” understands exactly what this is about, dealing with a controlling mother in law.
My MIL did offer to buy a house for me to live in, but it was right next door to her house! She did NOT offer to buy me a house where I would like to live! This is all about MILs realizing that after all, we are the parents (they had their chance)! In addition, it is sad that yom tov or any other get-together has to be a “trying” time. We all want to have peace of mind and would love to have a great time at our in-laws without having to constantly be rebuked etc.
At the end of the day, it just makes more sense to stay home in order to avoid all the negativity and “machlokes”!
it, the point was how hsould mrs. katz deal with a controlling personality. “
I would like to hear from Mrs. Katz Senior, the MIL. There are two sides to every story. (Not saying the youngert Mrs. K. is not presenting her side accurately, but perceptions can vary with each person’s subjective perspective. I bet the MIL would be horrified to know her DIL feels this way, and has no idea she feels insulted.
SSA
What’s your opinion on the Vibram FiveFinger shoes?
No oofence mrs, katz, but if your children do not care to go outdoors without socks, then why don’t you want to move to gateshead and send them to school without their sneakers? Or just send them without their shoes in the first place?
mrs. katz, it is a pleasure.
BTW, there is no need to answer every suggestion on YWN, or to release more and more personal info about your kids ages, genders or where they walk in theri socks.
BTW, i am sure that your kids wander in their socks, and wonder in their brains. hatzlacha.
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