My issue with the Israeli Chareidi parties

Found this from Haaretz

In the Haredi city of Bnei Brak, United Torah Judaism won 59.35% of the votes. Another 23.97% voted for Shas, 5.5% for Yahad, 4.57% for Likud, 2.35% for Habayit Hayehudi, 1.28% for the Zionist Union and 1.15% for Kulanu. The rest of the parties all had less than 1% of the vote in the city.

Because all the other parties are looking out only for everyone else to the exclusion of the chareidim. So it makes sense that to balance that, the chareidim need to look out for themselves.

Ditto the arab parties.

1. In a proportional parliamentary system, most parties become highly focused. The good side is you have parties focuses on your agenda. The bad side is no focuses on the country as a whole. In a single member system (American style) many minorities are cut off from the political system. Netanyahu and Herzog aim their focus a bit higher, but so no interest in serving those who are unlikely to support them (note Bibi’s anti-Arab comments, and Arabs are the same percentage of Israelis as hareidim, and are much more likely to serve in the IDF). In the US, with only two possible choices, candidates focus on the whole electorate.

2. Under the current economic arrangements in Israel, most hareidi would face a very low glass ceiling. Why prepare for a career in an economy that considers religious accomodations to be something undesirable, especially if you a part of a minority that most Israelis would gladly be rid of. In the United States, law and custom are much more supportive of people like us working outside of the frum ghetto (but America has always been proud of its religious diversity). Remember the goal of zionism is a Torah-free society, and when they see a frummie it reminds them that they have failed to achieve that goal. Under these conditions, its rationale for the hareidi parties to focus on protecting communal autonomy. Why prepare for a job that discrimination won’t let you take?

3. In all fairness, hareidim who want a good parnassah tend to either go off the derekh and become religious zionists, or move to a country that believes in religious freedom. The fact that they choose to live in Eretz Yisrael, under a hostile regime, is indicative that they are primarily concerned with something other than making money (unlike their Brooklyn cousins).

The draft is blocking the path of chareidim working, by making it illegal to work without doing service. I think the draft has a good chance of being canceled. Almost all senior military advisors think a volunteer army makes more sense to properly utilize Israels strategic strengths.

I think Yesh Atid et al changed the law so that lack of army service does not qualify you from employment. This was mentioned on Cross Currents, for example.

simcha613: Your assessment is accurate. I would add another issue as well. While I do want Chareidim and Datiim both to have control of the religious needs of the Country, I have a problem with the way the Chareidim go about it.

The overbearing approach, that has nothing to do with Halacha is a big problem that turns people away as opposed to drawing them near to Torah. The administration nightmare that a Chiloni has to get married, without their having a Halachic barrier, is unnecessary. It’s just a control thing. Many opt to go to Europe for a civil ceremony, which creates many other Halachic problems. They wouldn’t do that if the Rabbinite was decentralized enough for someone to go to an approved, more local, Orthodox Rabbi for marry them.

I think their rational is two-fold. One is the fear that if they loosen their grip even the slightest, it would be a slippery slope away from Halacha. This I can understand. Unfortunately, the bigger issue is the control and power that goes with it.

When it comes to issues involving Halacha where there is no viable compromise, the opportunity exists to educate and inform the masses in a proper way that most will understand and except. A sledge-hammer approach, which is often the first way, should be the last option.

Most Chilonim, other than the hard-core Leftists, want anything to do with religion to be authentic. Those people can be educated and would understand the rational for things, if they are explained properly.

Chareidi political leaders mostly don’t have tact or basic diplomacy skills and just alienate people. That is one of the reasons for Lapid’s rapid rise, since the average secular Israeli is disgusted with the constant demands for more and more, while at the same time, the unwillingness to do anything to contribute to the general society (as they see it).

I hear that more then a few Chareidim voted for Lapid, because they themselves want change but fear the backlash from within. That’s sad, that people can’t discuss issues open and honestly about what their needs are.

Though I’m not part of a major chassidus or group, my family and I definitely live a Charedi lifestyle, send our kids to Charedi schools, and follow Charedi poskim. That being said, as a full time worker I feel like the Charedi parties don’t represent me at all. They only seem to be looking out for the avreichim, which I am very supportive of, however unfortunately that leaves people like me out in the cold. Why shouldn’t I have a representative looking out for what’s important for me while promoting Torah just because I don’t learn full time? No offence to the Motzeit, but I think the Shas commercial with Deri campaigning the promise to take all the money away from the people who actually earn it and give it to whoever he thins deserves it more is disgusting. The Torah mandates that I give 10% minimum and 20% max to those in need. Since when is it a Torah value for somebody to decide someone else has “too much money” and can appoint himself judge of who deserves it better as if Hashem made a mistake and sent it to the wrong address. Why not promote people being able to lift themselves up out of their situation through emuna and hishtadlus instead of constantly scheming how to get a bigger slice of somebody else’s pie?

Also I don’t fully by people’s explanations to the OP’s 1st point that since the rest of the parties focus on everyone but the Charedim only the Charedi parties can look out for them. When the cell phone prices went down that saved Charedim just as much money as everyone else. When a fence was built on the Egyptian border to keep out African infiltrators that kept Charedim safer just like everyone else. When 3 year olds were allowed to go to gan for free that probably saved vastly more money for the charedim than any other sector in the country.

And as for the charedi parties looking out for the klal in general – my gut tells me that when they get fund allocations that money mainly gets sent to institutions specifically associated with those parties, not just any old charedi organization just because they are charedi.

The only ones that were truly concerned about frum Jews as a klal as well as all of Am/Eretz Yisrael was Eli Yishai and his party. Unfortunately certain people were determined to ensure that worthy goal was not accomplished.

akuperma: You’re wrong when you say many if not most hareidim follow the views of the Satmar Rebbe. Unless, of course, you’re just referring to Satmar chassidim when you say “many”, as there are many of them.

The leading Rabbonim in Israel do not agree with it. After all, they tell people to run for office, vote, and participate in the running of the state. Most Rabbonim in the US share the same views as the Rabbonim in Israel. The only ones who are adamantly opposed to Israel are Satmar. I’d say Neturei Karta as well, but with the Satmar chassidim going down to protest Netanyahu recently, holding up signs for the world to see one Jew protesting against another, I now lump them together.

You have read more carefully, they were allowed to work at 24. Just no government benefits. However this did not suit some some for political reasons

Akuperma, it is a Tora mitzva to conquer EY (Ramban Sefer HaMitzvot, Mitzvot that Rambam “forgot”). Slackers are not only ignoring this but violating the mitzva to participate in an obligatory war (Rambam Hilchot Melachim 5:1-2)

Likud and labor are more of a general party as they need to spread out their votes more than special interest smaller parties

‘the Charaidim are guilty of not supporting the “Israeli” cause, but Hashem and his Torah. That is not something they are ashamed of. Should they be?’

Were all Jews in Eretz Yisrael to become charedi, the economy would collapse and there would be mass starvation — unless the Arab rashaim wiped us all out before we could starve to death because there would no longer be an IDF. There would then be no Torah in Eretz Yisrael.

The fact is, the current Charedi system does not work and cannot work.

Again, akuperma, as others already said, the “zionists” you speak of are long gone. The people running Israel today are not the same as those 70 years ago.

As for the chareidi parties only looking out for Chareidim, that’s a product of the Israeli system. When a party is small, and doesn’t have a chance at being a major party (major meaning a chance at being given the mandate in an upcoming election), there’s no need for them to look at everyone. People will vote for them based on who they mostly align with, along with their major issue. For example, let’s say the chareidi parties are likely to align with Likud, but they also stand for chareidi interests. Chareidim who feel strongly on these issues, and would rather see Likud in power instead of a leftist government would vote for the chareidi parties. This would help Likud get the mandate, and also shows that a large group feels strongly about chareidi needs. Only when a party gets much larger do they need to worry about the larger issues.

simcha613:

“Is that true that they simply represent the religious needs of the nation as a whole?”

As I pointed out previously, some of the primary religious issues that the Chareidi parties deal with are mandating that stores and bus routes be closed on Shabbos and strengthening the Halachic nature of the state geirus system. Neither one of these issues directly affect the Chareidi community, and yet they are heavily involved in these and other such issues because they believe in strengthening the Halachic observance and jewish character of the state.

I once read in R’ Shlomo Lorincz’s book (although I don’t remember the exact details, I think this a pretty accurate re-telling) that R’ Shach once got up at an election kinus in Bnei Brak and spoke about the severity of desecrating Shabbos. He then asked the obvious question “Why am I talking about Shabbos in Bnei Brak, is anybody here thinking of ch”v desecrating Shabbos?! But when you get up to shomayim, they’ll ask you why you didn’t vote for Charedi representatives in the Knesset who would have strengthened the observance of Shabbos!”

“I heard rumors (and I hope they aren’t true) that when they are in charge of funding for yeshivos, it is disproportionately in favor of the Chareidi yeshivos as opposed to the Religious Zionist yeshivos?”

Don’t believe everything you hear. Even when rumors are true, they are often wildly exaggerated.

That said, there is indeed a tendency among politicians to look out for the interests of their voters before the interests of other citizens. This phenomena is by no means limited to Chareidi politicians. (I seem to remember a statement by then Bayit Yehudi MK Uri Orbach that he would like to divert all available funding to Dati-Leumi Yeshivos.) Perhaps ideally it shouldn’t be this way, but it is all too often the reality.

“Not to mention, that they are also involved in dealing with the poverty in Charedi communities (other than career services), but it doesn’t seem like they are involved in dealing with poverty as a whole.”

Shas has always focused on poverty and social issues to some extent, and it has never to the best of my knowledge differentiated between the poverty of Charedim and non-Chareidim (although its campaigns are generally targeted toward Sephardim).

The focus on poverty by UTJ is a fairly recent development, mostly in reaction to the efforts of Lapid to against their community.

However, the primary issues for the Chareidi parties have always been and continue to be religious in nature – be they about Shabbos, geirus, and kevurah in accordance with Halacha or about learning Torah.

BarryLS1: The Chareidim have not always controlled the marriage administrative system or other religious services as they haven’t always controlled the chief rabbinite or the religious ministry. Furthermore, the problem with allowing any rabbi to perform any marriage anywhere in the country is that such a system would allow pick-and-choose where an engaged couple that is of questionable halachic marriage allowability could simply find the most lenient rabbi in the country who will allow it rather than being required to engage their own local rabbi whose halacic decision on the allowability of the marriage would be binding.

JosephL You left out the key ingredient, ” after checking the halachic status of the people involved.” That should be done by the central authority, i.e. the Rabbinate.

The issue is the administrative nightmare that drive people away that has nothing to do with Halacha. The Halachic aspect should NOT change, but the administrative aspect should be more user friendly. This would avoid many civil marriages.

Barry:

“The administrative system of marriages are of the Chareidi making. They’ve always been in control of it and have resisted any change.”

That is simply not true. As we speak the Minister of Religious Services is Rabbi Eli Ben-Dahan of Bayit Yehudi. He has been in charge of all reigious services in the state of Israel for over two years. If this was really some diabolical Chareidi plot to intentionally make marriage an administrative nightmare, not just the standard and infamous Israeli bureaucracy, you’d think he’d have cleared it up by now.

“There is no Halachic requirement that prohibits someone from using a local Rov, as opposed to a centralized system.”

True. However, there is a very big problem in allowing every last so called “Rabbi” in the country to make his own standard for geirus.

american_yerushalmi:

+1

mw13: It’s a function of the Chief Rabbinate. The Cabinet Minister has been there a very short term and is trying to make reasonable changes.

Also, especially from your last sentence, you are commenting on something you made up, which is the opposite of what I said.

I said clearly enough that approved Rabbi’s, who passed the Rabbinate Smicha exams and after the central body confirms their kosher status for marriage. While the Geirus issue wasn’t discussed, the same applies. Is there something wrong with the Orthodox system of converts in the U.S.? We are essentially talking about the same system, except with the Chief Rabbinate’s oversight and approval, which would make it superior to the U.S. system.

BarryLS1: Because allowing pick-and-choose will allow the lowest common denominator when everyone picks the most lenient rabbi for geirus despite the opinions or consensus against permitting certain conversion scenarios.

How will the central chief rabbinate system prevent lone wolf rabbis from “converting” inappropriate prospects? Will it declare them retroactively, after the lone wolf rabbi inappropriately “converted” someone, as being invalid?

Barry:

“It’s a function of the Chief Rabbinate. The Cabinet Minister has been there a very short term and is trying to make reasonable changes.”

Again, that is simply incorrect. While the Chief Rabbis set the policy, it is the Ministry of Religious Services that carries them out.

“especially from your last sentence, you are commenting on something you made up, which is the opposite of what I said. I said clearly enough that approved Rabbi’s, who passed the Rabbinate Smicha exams and after the central body confirms their kosher status for marriage.”

I was not commenting on something I “made up”. I was commenting on recently modified Israeli geirus law, passed with Bayit Yehudi’s support, that allows any certified “Rabbi” in the country to perform geirus to his own standards. The Chief Rabbis have both said they will not recognize these said conversions, because it allows too much latitude to individual Rabbis and provides no oversight.

What you are referring to, where any Rabbi could perform the ceremony of the geirus once they have received a go-ahead from the Chief Rabbinate and as per the procedure supported by the Chief Rabbinate, indeed does not have these problems; however, that is simply not what the current law says.