My Inner Thoughts On Vaccine Politics

Can you understand that we never entered an agreement that I, who oppose vaccines will get vaccinated, to help protect you?

Nevertheless, it’s your obligation.

That is the bottom line. You don’t have the right to inflict your meshugas on your children or anyone else’s.

It’s not sensical, or sensible. It’s purely emotional.

Why is it that all anti vaxxers write ridiculously long posts?

On a personal level, I can understand the notion of doing what you believe is right. However,

A. Dont spread false information, and by dumping large quantities of many different arguments and made up studies, you will not come across as more credible.

B. Understand that while you have your rights, the rest of the world and the schools also have rights.

C. Understand that for the rest of us, this is not emotional, we have the data, regulatory institutions and constant micro oversight on vaccines, due to the now proven fraudulent data.

D. While systems have flaws, we live in the real world where conspiracies arent what drive our decisions.

To summarize, your argument about freedom of choice is understood, but also understand that the topic is a public health topic, so dont expect the public to welcome those that are a potential risk to them.

If the overwhelming majority of poskim from all walks of yiddishkeit say to vaccinate,

How can these “well educated” anti-vaxxers go against them??????

If a overwhelming majority of Poskim from all walks of Yiddishkeit say to vaccinate because that is today’s hishtadlus against disease,

How can these so called “well educated” anti-vaxxers go against it?

If a overwhelming majority of poskim say that something is assur to be eaten,
Would these “well educated” anti-vaxxers say yes?

get it clear part 2 of 2
(cont)
” You trust the government with certainty.”
Um, no again.

“I trust Hashem – my body’s designer with certainty.”
No you don’t if you did you would follow the majority of poskim And besides did you eat today? Why? If Hashem designed a body that really needed nutrients He would have made a automatically replenishing system.

“Can you please understand that there’s another opinion out there by descent, well intentioned human beings?”
no this isnt an opinion issue. I thought your group was well-intentioned but perhaps misguided, but that beleif is no longer sustainable

“Can you understand that we never entered an agreement that I, who oppose vaccines will get vaccinated, to help protect you?”
No, and for arguments sake ok. so keep away from us. dont come to our shuls, schools, simchas stores etc. You WANT us to accept you but dont care to “help protect us” that isnt fair.

“I deserve basic human respect.”
Agreed, And I respectfully disagree, as your research is clearly lacking

“I don’t ask you to agree or follow my choices”.
but you do. Look, lets say you opposed seatbelt use. you read someplace about a person who was r”l trapped in a car due to seatbelt and couldnt escape. Do you think you have the right to not seatbelt your kids. More to the point, do you have the right to not seat-belt MY kids, if they are riding with you. IT may not be fair that no reasonable parent would let their kids in your car let kids go on trips with your kids etc. But that is our right. This is no different

“No one should be ruling who’s right.”
Not even scientists, with hard data?

“Our creator has given us bechira.”
another strange argument, does that mean I have a right to shoot people , and you should respect my right? Bechira isnt a blanket right to make wrong decisions.

“As true Torah Jews you should not want this freedom to be taken from anyone. ”
Just the opposite, rights are a foreign concept. We believe in responsibilities. yo u have a responsibility to give tzedaka, it isnt a right. Yo udo not have a right to say what you want , nor do yo u have a right to play games with your or your kid’s health.

“For if you fight and scream for this choice to be taken away from others you may one day discover that a choice you hold dear is being taken away from you.”
Then we will fight to keep that choice. What is right is right. You dont allow a wrong becuase of another right.

“Do you want to set the stage for forceful laws and regulations regarding your health or religion to be imposed on you?”
Health – yes of course as demonstrated above
Religion – Again the courts have already ruled that religion doesn’t always trump health. I am not sure what religion yo u practice. but Judaism requires vaccination, according to most poskim, and according to none does it oppose it. so don’t misuse my religion to protect you backwards idea.

getitclear:

Your post is appreciated despite our disagreement. It is polite, and for a subject under debate in the CR, that is an accomplishment. I see things quite opposite, and I have major comments on your post. As we are all in this emotionally, I will try to emulate your decency in responding.

Several points you made deserve challenge. I find them highly irritating (the content, not the delivery). I will try to list some of these individually.

* “So if the government and vaccine producers can limit your fear of disease, and assure your well being, you will choose to follow their advice, innovations and promises.” – This point is untrue. The government is not trying to allay fears. It is trying to eradicate disease. And studies show it has fared quite well. There is a great track record of eliminating quite a few diseases, and greatly reducing the incidence of others.

* “I believe all you parents who go to the doctor to vaccinate have the best intentions in mind, and of course you don’t take your doctor’s word with certainty when he says vaccines are very safe, safer than the disease.
I believe you take the time to read disease facts. I believe you have the courage to ask your doctor to show you the vaccine package insert, so you can read the adverse side effects related to the vaccine your child is about to receive.
I believe your doctor is honest and lawfully hands that to you, the consumer. I believe you read it….I believe you discuss your concerns and take the time to make a conscious choice to allow your doctor to administer the vaccine to you dear child.” – This is the sarcasm that serves as the emotional cover for the intellectual weakness of the arguments. We vaxxers rely on the government to do the research for us. We entered this world observing the successes of vaccinating, and do not engage in the scientific study of a subject that lies outside our domain of learning and experience. That’s the role of government. Once again, we openly saw the devastation of various illnesses and how they vanished once there was widespread vaxxing.

* “I’m sure you know our country was founded on the belief of freedom. I’m sure you agree that as humans we should have freedom of choice.” – Nice sales pitch. That’s why we chose to vaccinate and you chose not to. That freedom is yours. No one ever entered your home and threatened you with criminal charges over your decision to not vaccinate. I might have an ideological issue with your exercise of parental authority to deprive the baby/child of the resistance to the illnesses. But that argument against abortion was flatly rejected by the left, and has all but vanished from discussion.

* “I believe in taking responsibility for my health. I believe in giving my body what it needs so it can function the way it was designed to be. I’m aware that when disease strikes, I or my kids may be sick for a week or two, but will get over it with Hashem’s help.” – I challenge the responsibility of that statement. There are benign diseases that are hardly the threat they once were. In earlier generations, diseases that are mostly considered insignificant today were killers. Anti-biotics changed that. The development of strains of microbes that are resistant to these medications is an unfortunate side effect. That is a real issue. And I am a firm believer that אני ה’ רפאך. But that does not mean to avoid doctors, or to reject mainstream medical care. Hashem provided us with the advances in science and technology that enable us to study the human body and its functions, and to intervene in a great many ways to improve our health, well being, and longevity. But denying normal medical care is akin to staying home and not going to work since מזונותיו של אדם קצובין לו מראש השנה עד ראש השנה. That’s blatantly irresponsible. Hashem provided us with the avenues through which he will heal and cure us. False בטחון is not a mitzvah or a virtue.

* “You trust the government with certainty. I trust Hashem – my body’s designer with certainty.” – That’s a veiled accusation that vaxxers lack trust in Hashem. That is not only unfair and untrue, but a misrepresentation of what trust in Hashem means. The previous comment contains the reaction to this line of yours.

* “Can you understand that we never entered an agreement that I, who oppose vaccines will get vaccinated, to help protect you?” – We never entered into any agreement. But Torah Law is clear that causing someone else harm is completely ossur. I have no interest in your organic, vegan, gluten free, etc., diet. Those choices are yours alone, and no agreements with anyone else are needed. The situation here is the danger and risk you are inflicting on me. You may be entitled to your anti-vaxxing shittah. But you are not entitled to expose other people to disease. If there is an outbreak, your unvaccinated child is a potential threat to others, and should be restricted from those venues that place others at risk. Keeping these kids out of school is not unfair.

* “I ask you to stop with the hatred and cynicism that’s driving us further apart as humans on this planet, and as people of one nation.” – I concur 100% that hatred and cynicism should be banished. They are also threats to our health, emotional and spiritual, and even physical. However, the frank resistance to the banning of unvaccinated kids in school is without merit. Reality is that their presence provides exposure that has already sickened several hundred children, with several that are suffering from very serious conditions. You chose to raise your kids without vaccines, that’s your freedom. But imposing your freedom on others is unacceptable. We don’t hate your choice, just have a legitimate issue with imposing disease on our children. Our right to safety wins on this.

* “Do you want to set the stage for forceful laws and regulations regarding your health or religion to be imposed on you?” – Absolutely not! But just as I want our Halachic leaders and Poskim to provide me with guidance that insures my compliance with Halacha, I want the medical experts to provide me with the guidance to maintain my health. Are you opposed to warning labels on cigarettes or alcohol? If I choose to smoke, I may do so as long as it doesn’t impinge on others’ right to breathe air. I may not pump stinky second hand smoke into the room, with considerations of the foul odor and health consequences of second hand smoke. I want our government to make these laws and regulations. They employ the experts for these matters. We have Poskim to serve as the Halacha experts.

I commend your post for its delivery. I strongly disagree with many of your points. I am not looking to convince you of anything, but to be tolerant of our safety.

Anti-vaxxers are under the mistaken impression that there is a vaccine “debate”. That there are two sides to the issue, “pro-vax” and “anti-vax”. That’s a fantasy concocted by the anti-vax crowd and is completely false. There’s no debate. There’s merely facts (which the majority of intelligent seicheldikeh people understand and abide by) and there’s scare tactics and lies pulled from weird looking websites with only some token out of context scientific data to back it up.

“I want to share my inner thoughts on vaccine politics, a very heated topic these days in our community.”
-Only anti-vaxxers think it is political.

“the animosity toward us, is unfathomable.”
-Because anti-vaxxers know that other people may die for their decision but they still won’t budge.

“Yes I understand you pro vaxxers strongly believe in vaccines, and their safety and effectiveness.”
-because it’s been tested extensively.

“You don’t fear live viruses, in vaccines, as well as additives and human and animal cells and DNA….”
-I do fear those things. I am only willing to vaccinate my kids because they have proven, through extensive studies, that it is safe.

“You trust that the vaccine industry is working hard to protect you and keep you healthy. You trust that they are honest and expose all the truths, never hiding facts that may be important for you to know to help formulate your decision. I understand that fear is something you want to avoid at all costs. So if the government and vaccine producers can limit your fear of disease, and assure your well being, you will choose to follow their advice, innovations and promises.”
-I don’t trust anyone. I don’t trust the vaccine industry nor the government and I definitely don’t trust the anti-vaxxing arguments especially since every single one has been refuted. It comes down to whom should I rely on. Someone is lying. The liars are either 1) the vast majority of doctors, plus the government, plus the vast majority of scientists, plus the vast majority of rabbanim, plus the vast majority of journalists, or 2) a small percentage of doctors plus a tiny percentage of scientists, plus 1-2 rabbanim, plus a few journalists who also think the mossad masterminded 9/11

“I believe all you parents who go to the doctor to vaccinate have the best intentions in mind, and of course you don’t take your doctor’s word with certainty when he says vaccines are very safe, safer than the disease. I believe you take the time to read disease facts. I believe you have the courage to ask your doctor to show you the vaccine package insert, so you can read the adverse side effects related to the vaccine your child is about to receive. I believe your doctor is honest and lawfully hands that to you, the consumer. I believe you read it….I believe you discuss your concerns and take the time to make a conscious choice to allow your doctor to administer the vaccine to you dear child. You are a truly responsible and caring parent who takes the time to educate yourself before allowing the doctor to administer the vaccine. I applaud you for making the choice that’s right for you and your child. You don’t blindly trust the doctor or government”
-I don’t know if you’re being sarcastic but yes that is all true.

“government, who do care about your health, but should ethically never impose on you any health procedure or treatment.”
-I don’t know if that’s true. As an extreme example, if a person has a severe bout of psychosis and they think they need to kill someone, I would hope that he would be sedated or treated even against his will.

“I do fear vaccine components that are known to cross the blood brain barrier, such as aluminum.”
I fear aluminum which is why I don’t use it whenever possible. I use natural deodorant and I line my pans with parchment paper.

“I fear inflammation of the gut and brain.”
-I fear those too which is why I vaccinate my kids against diseases that cause those things.

“I also doubt the vaccine industries intentions.”
-I don’t care about their intentions. I’m sure they have some intentions that are noble, such as to eradicate disease and other intentions that are selfish, such as to make money. However, I’m sure alternative practitioners also have both good intentions.

“Perhaps they’re not sharing with us the full picture. Perhaps not all the facts are exposed to the average consumer, or government agencies or health journals, and the media.”
-Assuming vaccines are all a hoax, I honestly don’t know how they could pull this off in the massive way that they are doing. Not everyone can be bought off with money.

“I’m aware that when disease strikes, I or my kids may be sick for a week or two, but will get over it with Hashems help.”
-That’s really nice to do that to your kids. You do know that encephalitis which comes from the measles can occur 6-10 years after the patient has already overcome measles.

I believe our body was designed with an immune system so that it can deal with illness and then gain lifelong immunity. You fear disease. I fear vaccines.”
-I fear both. I choose vaccines because I would never want to put my child through suffering that could have been prevented very easily.

“You trust the government with certainty.”
-I don’t. I just trust them more than I trust conspiracy theorists.

“I trust Hashem – my body’s designer with certainty.”
-I trust Hashem too which is why I think that if I’m doing my hishtadlus to prevent these diseases, then Hashem will protect me. Hashem knows how much information I have access to and He knows that my only desire is to protect my family from harm and I believe that when I do vaccinate, it is a shemira against illness and I believe that Hashem sees that I am doing my best. When I do vaccinate, I daven that we shouldn’t have adverse reactions and that we should be protected from the diseases.
I think the claim that anti-vaxxers trust Hashem more than vaxxers, is very insulting.

“Can you please understand that there’s another opinion out there by descent, well intentioned human beings?”
-I’m not why this boils down to opinion. It’s not political. Anti-vax think they can do something, knowing that it may (obviously not definitely) kill the immune deficient. Measles is not dangerous to people whose health is optimum. The problem is that not everyone else’s health is optimum and those people cannot vaccinate, through no choice of their own. When a person carries the measles, they risk transferring it over to the people to whom these diseases are life-threatening.

“Can you understand that we never entered an agreement that I, who oppose vaccines will get vaccinated, to help protect you?”
-That’s fine but I hope you can then understand why others find that attitude to be extremely selfish and even despicable.

“I also did research. I do think I’m a responsible adult and parent.”
-I also did and I feel the same way.

“I ask you to stop with the hatred and cynicism that’s driving us further apart as humans on this planet, and as people of one nation.”
-Habah lehargecha, hashkem lehargo. Not that I think that pasuk is completely appropriate in this situation, but it does explain that you don’t have to love another Jew when his belief can kill you.

“Our creator has given us bechira.”
-Bechira does not mean that all options are right. A person can kill, serve avodah zara and commit adultery because they have bechira. However all those things are forbidden and the violater will be punished.

“As true Torah Jews you should not want this freedom to be taken from anyone. For if you fight and scream for this choice to be taken away from others you may one day discover that a choice you hold dear is being taken away from you.”
-There are many laws that restrict our freedoms in some way or another. This should be another one.

“Do you want to set the stage for forceful laws and regulations regarding your health or religion to be imposed on you?”
-No, but I don’t think vaccines fall into that category.

“Or basic human rights to be taken away from you???”
-It should not be a basic human right to be able to infect others with a dangerous illness.

Final thoughts:
Anti-vaxxers think that the diseases that vaccines are meant to prevent are not dangerous diseases. They think that vaccines are dangerous. They also think that everyone is being paid off by Big Pharma. These arguments have been refuted myriad times by many educated and qualified professionals. However, they will not budge. Therefore, I think that this was all a waste of my time.

The Little I Know – if you thought the post was kind you obviously didnt read it.

Interjection- thank you!!

Get it clear,
what will you say when your child dies or causes another child to die because of your decision?
What will you say if your children have mumps and can NEVER have children when a vaccine would have prevented that?
If we are al servants of HaShem, that should be first and foremost; since our Gedolim have repeated said to vaccine, why are anti-vaxxers not following our leaders. In other words, are they placing their own views above the Torah?
I am not a “pro-vaxxer”, I try to be servant of HaShem and when my rabbenim said I should get my children and grandchildren vaccinated based on the very far majority of doctors, I following them.

Kavod HaBrios,
Are you an Eved HaShem or Eved Ini?
An Eved HaSehm follows our Gedolim but Eved Ini follow his own path despite what our Rabbis are saying.
Please answer my previous questions because as much as we much have Emuna, HaShem expects us to place our own effect as guided by the Gedolim.

The little I know- while the manner and expression might have been kind, when the words are sarcastic and condescending it is not by any means mentchlich. He could have been so, but he missed the opportunity to be respectful and make a point without being hateful. That being said, i agree with your point(s) 1000%

Pregnancy isn’t 100% safe either.

sariray: Cancer treatments also have known side effects and risks. Would you also suggest a cancer patient r’l not be treated?

the difference between cancer and vaccines is obvious , at least to me. Cancer the person is already ill and seeking treatment. It is also usually 100% fatal if untreated. Vaccines are given to PREVENT an illness, many of which are not fatal to the average healthy human. Quite different.

Am I the only one who gets bothered by comparisons that don’t make any sense?

“Am I the only one who gets bothered by comparisons that don’t make any sense?”

no, but after discussing with pro-diseasers for years Ive gotten used to it.
you’d be shocked how many of them make a variation of the crazy argument that Hashem wouldnt create “imperfect” babies

sairay
“Any body who says anti vaxers shouldn’t have a choice is denying the very fundamental truth which is that vaccines are not 100% safe”

This does not follow. I used the example of seatbelts earlier. Seatbelts are not 100% safe. There are times that people have been harmed by seatblets (probably more than vaccines). Never the less, you are a fool if you dont wear a seatblet. adn I dont think you should have a choice whether to seatbelt your child.

More to the point though, Idont think you should have a choice to seatbelt MY child. Yes it is sad that as a result of your bad decision not to seatbelt I and sane individuals do not want out children riding in your car .

Please Please explain this to me, ok for arguments sake you have a right not to vaccinate or seatbelt your child, but why do yo u have the right to not seatbelt mine, or to send your unvaccinated child to our schools?

sariray:

Comparisons that are senseless is one of the arguing points here. There is much more illogic than meets the eye.

Each and every medication, whether prescription, over-the-counter, and even nutritional supplements has actions that it accomplishes and side effects. Using any of these requires a judgment that weighs the benefits against the risks. Passing such judgment requires an understanding of the entire picture, not a specific or single report even in the professional literature. The average person is not equipped to make this judgment, and must resort to relying on experts to do that. So until I know that a commenter here on behalf of anti-vaxxing is an expert, I dismiss it as I would do with any non-professional advice. On legal matters, one should consult with an attorney, and on medical matters, with a physician. On Halacha, one asks a Rov, and on a leaky pipe, with a plumber. Lay advice is worthless.

The cancer patient takes medication that is toxic. Why? Because the benefits of killing the cancer outweigh the risks of the adverse reactions. First, insure survival, then deal with the consequences. A dead patient is useless. The issue of vaccination is that simple. Yes, it can have adverse reactions. So does Tylenol. So does every other medication. Taking it needlessly is not advisable. Why suffer the negatives when there is no gain?

Rav Sternbuch’s tshuvah here was most revealing in focusing on our obligation to follow mainstream medicine, rather than conspiracy theorists. And mainstream medicine acknowledges that vaccinating is far better than the alternative.

Sariray, peanut allergens are airborne.

Sariray, to many immuno compromised, they ARE 1 and the same.

Sariray,

You have the luxury of living in a world that , because of vaccination, has not known the impact of widespread disease. Go to any Jewish cemetery that dates back to the 1800’s ( like Washington Cemetery in Brooklyn). What you’ll notice is quite a few tree stump monuments. Those are graves of children. My father in law lost 3 siblings who died of diseases that are preventable today. Until the Salk and Sabin vaccines for polio were developed, thousands either died or were paralyzed annually. When Salk asked for volunteers to take the vaccine, the line of mothers and children was almost a mile long. You live in a world made safe for children by vaccinations

So, basically out of the other hundreds of millions of people on the planet, mine are the ones who are disease vectors…. even with this latest outbreak in the US we only saw less than 100 cases. And if you think that the anti vaxers are the only ones who are capable of catching measles, we have problems. Two of my very own sister in laws who were fully vaccinated as children were told (one was told TWICE) that they needed another MMR. They were tested during pregnancy and surprise, the vaccine was either ineffective of worn off. The vaccine is quite imperfect and many people are not as immune as they think. Add to that number the twenty million undocumented immigrants . Add to that all the immunocompromised. And probably others I can’t rhink of. You should be surprised we haven’t had an outbreak sooner….

Getitclear, Sariray and everyone else here who is an antivaxxer:

Thank you.
Thank YOU. YOU are the reason we have extinct diseases that left the world when vaccinating became a thing. Your selfishness and ignorance is appalling. Forget about the fact that rabbanim worldwide are calling against anti vaccination, your so called “emunah” in Hashem is a disgrace. (And I’m not going to cover my sarcasm here. I’m truely disappointed in you).

How dare you ask Hashem to help you or your perfectly healthy unvaccinated children, when Chas veshalom they get sick with one of these diseases. It isn’t very clear that your kids will be sick for 2 weeks with no lasting issues, you have alot of nerve to say something like that. You had an opportunity to boost your children’s immune system and you didn’t.

Dont come back at me that vaccinating causes issues and problems. I had a reaction to a vaccination and I WILL vaccinate my children. Because the odds of having a serious reaction to a vaccination is so small compared to a. The problems measles , mumps, polio, rubella, diphtheria and the list goes on causes and b. The probelms you cause by not vaccinating (spreading to people who are immunocompromised, pregnant, I’ll, too young or old etc.).

I am a registered nurse, with years of experience in health care and I simply cannot understand your points. Your emunah is exactly the same as in the joke with the man who is in a flood and a surfboard, boat and helicopter come by to save him and he says nah, Hashem will save me. And when he dies from drowning he goes to Hashem and says why didn’t you save me and Hashem says, but I sent you a surfboard, boat and helicopter and you chose not to use it.

We are NOT angels and Hashem doesn’t owe us anything if we don’t put in our hishtadlus. And to the person who wrote about cancer drugs- it is 100% relatable to vaccinating. This isn’t about already having a disease or preventing one. It’s about recognizing that Hashem has created medicine to help us and using it IS OUR HISHTADLUS. Yes question the health system all you want, they make many mistakes. But please make informed decisions. Not based on the very very very FEW verified cases of real vaccination reactions (not “well he wasn’t autistic before the vaccine and now he is after the vaccine”. That’s not scientific or informed, that’s a correlation and a story).

I’m genuinely curious: do u agree with the fact that diseases like measles, polio, rubella etc. We’re rampant and caused many issues and deaths many years ago. Then vaccines came out and the numbers dwindled. And suddenly numbers are growing with the anti vaccination movement? Like can you see this fact or no?