- This topic has 52 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 3 years, 6 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
So I was in a local frum owned store today and I bumped into a friend. She was buying a few items for dinner and told me that her box from the school distribution had different items than the email stated and so she is purchasing some of those items in order to make the dinner she had planned. I told her that I have a surplus of those items and that she should come by and pick them up. I was happy to save her some money, and happy to have a place for the items my family didn’t want.
About two aisles later I realized I just cost the store a sale! They are already hurting from the overflowing amounts of free federally funded food filling the community, how could I do them more damage?!
I felt awful. I decided to estimate how much money her items would have cost, and buy myself some extras that I would never have purchased regularly (think chocolate and iced coffees). I know it is a question for a rav, but I am asking here conversationally…. what are your thoughts on my error, and on my makeshift solution?
Syag, I think you are very considerate.
I agree with Reb Eliezer.
I don’t have an answer to the OP. You’re right, it’s a halacha shaila, so I don’t want to give my “conversational” opinion only to find out it’s against halacha. I know there’s a halacha in hilchos lashon hora that if someone is in a store about to buy something, you can’t tell them “It’s cheaper in the other store” (assuming the price difference isn’t אונאה). I don’t know how that applies to this case though, where you’re offering it for free.
Fascinating question.
My sense is this situation does not fall into the halachic category of telling someone “It’s cheaper in the other store”.
You’re amazing syag (I don’t think I would have thought of that)
Are you saying that you buy those items somewhere else and therefore you’re taking away business from them (ujm’s question) because if that’s the store you buy those things then they didn’t lose out because you need to go their later for those things
Unless you’re saying you have extra from food distribution and are giving things to other people that you don’t use (like we get red milk and we don’t use it so we give it away to someone in the building who would)
Unless you’re saying you have extra from food distribution and are giving things to other people that you don’t use (like we get red milk and we don’t use it so we give it away to someone in the building who would)
I don’t think your case is so comparable. She was shopping and found someone in the store who was ready to make a purchase. You are giving it away in your building.
“I don’t think your case is so comparable. She was shopping and found someone in the store who was ready to make a purchase. You are giving it away in your building.“
So where someone asks if anyone is going to the store can they get them X and someone pipes up that they have it and the person can come in get it
But anyways in my original case why isn’t that taking away business from the grocery store because eventually they need milk and I’m delaying that eventuality
So where someone asks if anyone is going to the store can they get them X and someone pipes up that they have it and the person can come in get it
It’s still not in the store.
But anyways in my original case why isn’t that taking away business from the grocery store because eventually they need milk and I’m delaying that eventuality
Understood, but it’s worse in the store right before a purchase, at least in hilchos l”h.
Ms Syag, yashar kochech!
you were able to both help your friend and make a sale to the store! Consider an alternative – she buys from the store and you offer her money (as she seems to be getting free food somewhere else). This will be embarrassing her, of course. So, you fulfilled mitzva of tzedokah b’hiddur – and got an immediate reward in the form of chocolate.
More (free) food for thought – generally, food store did not suffer much, sale of groceries increased all over the country – at the expense of the restaurants. So, if your store suffered due to people getting federal free food, there are a couple of points to make:
1) I referred recently to Rav Huna who provided tzedoka in a similar situation by buying and sending away leftovers to lower market prices without making people dependent on charity ..
You described exactly the problem R Huna was trying to avoid – if you feed poor people directly, then you will destroy the livelihood of people who are still working productively and you may only increase number of poor people2) having so many people relying on charity, and even a non-Jewish one seems to be a problem y itself. Rabbi Akiva suggests “make your shabbat like chol” but do not depend on tzedokah, and I think MB paskens the same way. Are we more permissive towards government charity?
Wouldn’t hasagas gvul be more the question than loshon hora?
The question is, and therefore it would not matter who owned the store (and it really bugs me when people emphasize “frum-owned” as if non0frum and non-Jewish people are hefker), did she make a kinyan by putting them in her cart. If she did then it might be theft (although presumably, someone else would then buy them so in the end there was no loss). If not, it is analogous to giving someone a lift and thus saving the person the cost of public transportation.
Dear Syag
What you did was very commendable. Halachically, it was “lifnim meshuras hadin”. There certainly was no gezeilah or gneivah on anyone’s part.
One could have made a reverse argument. Assuming you knew you had these items that you would gladly give your friend at no cost, why would you allow a situation in which your friend had to incur an unnecessary expense? Why is the profit (minimal) of the store inherently preferable to the expense (maximal) of your friend?Don’t sweat it. you did a noble act and you need not worry about it.
Avi: There’s a clear halachic difference whether the owner is Frum or non-frum/non-Jewish.
As far as kinyan, if you put vanilla pudding into your cart but before checking out decided to change it to chocolate pudding, there’s a shaila whether you can put the vanilla pudding back on the shelf?
rational: Why is the profit (minimal) of the store inherently preferable to the expense (maximal) of your friend?
It may be more important to help the store than an individual poor buyer:
1) you want to help someone in business NOT to become poor in the first place
2) the store is in the business of helping multiple poor people, they will be worse without the store, especially after federal assistance will end
3) you would like to encourage local residents to go into business, like the store owner, rather than collect free federal food. Current system seems to provide more incentives for the latter than the former (although, I presume the store also got their PPP loan)Always:
It may be more important to help the poor buyer than a specific store.
1. One person not buying one time will not make a store owner poor
2. the store is in business to make money, not to help multiple poor people. Multiple poor people are helped by free giveaways, not for-profit stores.
3. It is no one’s job to encourage people to go into business.I totally agree with you that entrepreneurship is much preferable to welfare, gmachs, free giveaways and the like. I am in favor of buying from businesses and supporting them. I am in favor of all people supporting themselves financially and not relying on others, we both pray for exactly that in bircat hamazon.
However, I do not think that Syag did anything wrong, nor do I think she will begin handing out freebies in front of all the local stores to drive them out of business. A proportionate response is due here. What she did was a judgement call and she was the best (and only) person to have the tools to make the judgement. Kudos to her.Ujm,
1. What is the difference? Stealing from anyone is prohibited by the Torah (SA 359:1 and see Be’er haGola 348:5). Please cite your sources. Actually,if the owner is non-frum/non-Jewish it might be worse as it might be a chillul Hashem.
2. Yes. It is a question. It would depend on whether people commonly change their minds and put items back on the shelf before paying. In most places that is the case so there was no kinyan because there was no completed intent to acquire. Probably the store owner does not care as someone else will buy it. However, where this is not common putting an item in one’s cart might be a kinyan.Rational,
1. That was a method of the people of Sodom. Each one would steal less than a peruta’s worth.
2. True.
3. Finding someone a productive job is the highest form of tzedaka so there is a mitzva to help someone’s business.Ujm, my sources are in Choshen Mishpat.
rational: poor people are helped by free giveaways, … It is no one’s job to encourage people to go into business.
posting a response in daf yomi
Avi K: (re: responses to UJM)
1) We are not talking about actual gezeilah. We are talking about taking away a sale from the store owner. There is a mitzvah to buy from a Jew.
2) Nah, nobody is koneh until they pay (or add it to their bill).
DY,
1. The mitzva to buy from a Jew only applies if the non-Jew does not sell for much less (I think one-sixth) and/or the quality is much lower. In any case, the customer was already there. In any case, I fail to see the connection. If it is gezel it is prohibited no matter who is the owner. If not then it is permitted no matter who is the owner. If the owner is poor (very doubtful) there might be an issue of עני המהפך בחררהץ. This indeed only applies to a Jew (please bring sources if you want to say only a frum Jew – and then we can argue over who is considered frum). However, as I previously posted, there is also an issue of chillul Hashem if the store owner is not Jewish or not frum.
2. That was my conclusion.1. There’s a mitzvah regardless. The chiyuv, according to some, is when it’s less than ⅙ more.
As I mentioned, it’s not actual gezel. Pretty sure the OP didn’t mean it literally either. The point was taking away a potential sale, which would be relevant to someone who is בכלל עמיתך.
2. I’m saying it’s not even a shaila.
Here is a new wrinkle. As my father used to say, you learn something new every day.
Question: Reuven has an electronics store that offers affordable prices. There’s another store in town that charges a little more for some of the same products. Is Reuven allowed to go into that store and inform customers that they can purchase the products they are interested in from his store for a cheaper price?
HaRav Chaim Weg
Answer: The halacha is that one is allowed to compete with another local business, even if he is adversely affecting his bottom line. The Gemara says that the reason for this is because “zeh osek b’soch shelo v’zeh osek b’soch shelo.” He will operate in his store and he will operate in his store.
It seems that one is only permitted to compete with an existing business if he operates within his own store, but not if he operates in the competing store.
There is also another relevant sugya in halacha. The Gemara discusses a case where someone has already set up nets to catch fish and rules that another individual is not allowed to encroach on his territory and put down nets in the same area. Rashi explains that since the first fisherman has already set his sights on those particular fish and is planning on catching them, they are already considered to be set aside for him, and no one else is allowed to “take them away” from him.
The Chasam Sofer says that when a customer is already in a store, the same reasoning would apply. This customer is already in the sights of that store owner and is “in his net”, so to speak; therefore, it would be forbidden for a competitor to take away that business.In the O.P.’s case, however, there might be nafka minas. Is her friend’s budget such that getting these items for free would cause her to buy something else that she would not have bought? Is business such that the items would have been sold anyway?
In any case, if it is an issue of gezel it does not matter who owns the store. Even if it is something else that only applies to Jews (absent chillul Hashem) I see no reason why it should matter if the owner is frum. It is not, for example, allowed to charge a non-frum Jew interest on a loan.
“Rashi explains that since the first fisherman has already set his sights on those particular fish and is planning on catching them, they are already considered to be set aside for him”
In שנים אוחזים בטלית the Gemara talks about falling on an object and someone else takes it away from him the guy that took it away gets it because the first guy wants to be קונה with falling on it (so ד אמות doesn’t work) why can’t you say over here it’s not his until he catches it
Just wondering not arguing
coffee addict, by a business there is an issur of maasei gevul. Putting a net out is a large catch applying to a business. However, by the talis it is not assur because of massei gevul but ani hamhapech bachararah which only applies with proper kinyonim and not intentions.
Mod, why did you reverse my last two posts?
an unfortunately irreversible error-29
Not true. I fixed it -25
I hope the extra food you bought was kugel!
Above should be maaseig gevul not maasei gevul.
Syag, any reaction to the responses here?
Anyone heard of the story from the Chofetz Chaim about a stamp? He had written a letter to mail. Then he found someone going directly to the destination and sent it by hand. He then tore up a stamp, saying that because he found an alternative, that shouldn’t deprive the government of the money they’re entitled to. Question would be the exact cheshbon and is that because of postal monopolies. Also is that halacha l’maaseh, or just a chumra/tzidkus/lifnim mishuras hadin hanhaga that the Chofetz Chaim did himself.
Yes, I have heard that story, and I don’t understand it at all.
Most countries (including the United States) grant their own postal service a legal monopoly on delivering letters.
I trust Syag’s sense of knowing who and what to give to. It is in her genes.
Syag,
your actions are very commendable, but I am confused by the source of this mystery food:>> This food is a bit different because it is coming to people from the school distribution packages. That means it is given to everyone without financial constraints, and it is funded by the government, not tzedaka money (or intent of feeding the poor).
You are telling me that government gives away food to everyone in private schools? Maybe this is OK and a substitute for “school lunches” and, commendably, applied to private schools by your state? Is this COVID emergency or courtesy of Betsy DeVos or state? This is great. I am just not used to seeing free (kosher) food given away that is not targeting poor population.
It may be that the school has to be qualified as serving poor under Federal Title 1? Does it then get funds for everyone at school or only those who qualify for Title 1? I am not sure
You are telling me that government gives away food to everyone in private schools?
Not to everyone, but it’s not based on finances.
Maybe this is OK and a substitute for “school lunches”
Sort of, but actually (in my locale at least) you’re not eligible if the school your kid attends offers federally funded meals
Is this COVID emergency
It started that way, but it seems that the Covid emergency has been used as an excuse for more and more federal giveaways. We are moving towards socialism.
so i agree with coffee addict that it is similar. While it may not affect the “ruling “in this case, i am careful not to offer free things to people who can purchase them without hardship.
Ignore the source of the food for a moment.
What would you do if your neighbor asked you to pick up some milk, and let’s say you had some extra around (e.g. overbought and would spoli if not used soon). You wouldn’t just give them a container regardless of ability to buy it in the store?
If you must know it was iced cappacino made with almond milk and a box of cholov yisroel ice cream bars:)
Yes, I was having a hard time sleeping without that info
I thought he was asking if the food was being given to those who would otherwise get it in school.
I also know that if i don’t, someone else will.
Not likely in my scenario.
What would I do if they weren’t? Probably give it to them and kick myself. 🙂
Ok. I can tell you that I would give it to them and not kick myself.
Never heard of a crooked grin?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.