- This topic has 64 replies, 22 voices, and was last updated 9 years, 1 month ago by .
-
Posts
-
Kol Hator is not authentic. See Rav Shternbuch (who is a descendant and actual follower of the Gr”a’s traditions) on the topic here: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20027&pgnum=414&hilite=
Also, I have a question for Hakatan, based on Rav Moshe’s teshuvah (oc 1:46) that it is mutar to daven in a shul with an israeli flag. he claims it is mutar to have the flag there because the flag is a d’var chol, and even if the original tzionim were reshaim (his words), the flag itself is not a symbol of avodah zarah. Rav Moshe seems to go against your view that zionism is avodah zarah, no?
Avi K:
I didn’t accuse anyone of anything. Please read Rav Elchonon Wasserman and many others who clearly and explicitly refer to Zionism as both idolatry and heresy.
Regarding Rabbi Teichtal, his son writes in the introduction to that book that his father’s views, conceived during WW II, are, regardless, not a justification for any “-ism” including Zionism. Regarding the meraglim, please see the previous post.
Zionists have no answers because there are no answers. Zionism is perhaps the one topic that gedolim across the Traditional Orthodox spectrum (both chassidish and “litvish”) have denounced in the strongest terms, as in heresy and idolatry.
ZB:
No. That teshuva from Rav Moshe Zatza”l is, of course, in agreement with the gedolim’s view of the heresy and idolatry of Zionism.
He simply stated that the Zionist flag is not technically A”Z. This happens to be very convenient for all of us given the large number of shuls that unfortunately have this flag in their sanctuaries, R”L. That the flag is not A”Z doesn’t make Zionism itself any less idolatrous.
While on that topic, he also doesn’t exactly praise the flag’s inclusion in the sanctuary either, for obvious reasons.
While I admire Hakatan’s ability to distort a direct psak from R Moshe I still feel that when referring to a Gadol Like R’ Moshe it should only be done in the respectful third person
There are specific criteria that make something A”Z. What aspects of Zionism fit these criteria and how?
Hakatan- “That the flag is not A”Z doesn’t make Zionism itself any less idolatrous.”
Forgive me, but yes it does!! In that teshuvah, Rav Moshe clearly calls the tziyonim reshaim (as opposed to ovdei a”z), but just as clearly says the flag isn’t an object of a”z. If he really felt zionism was a”z, then the key symbol and object of zionism, the Israeli flag, should be considered an object of a”z, just like the Xtian cross, is an object of a”z. Would you daven in a shul with a cross? No! Then why would you daven in a shul with an Israeli flag, unless you believed it was *not* the object of an idolatrous movement?
Big Boy:
I certainly did not mean any disrespect, CH”V, when quoting Rav Moshe, and I don’t see how referring to Rav Moshe as “him” as opposed to “Rav Moshe” is in any way disrespectful. Of course, you did not care to elaborate on how you feel I distorted “a direct psak from Rav Moshe”.
ZB:
Please forgive me. No, it does not.
Just because the Zionists invented a flag for their idolatrous State, that does not therefore automatically make that flag, halachicly, an object of A”Z, as Rav Moshe indicated.
You are the one who is positing that
A) their flag is “the key symbol and object of zionism” and that
B) therefore this would automatically make that an object of A”Z.
(As it happens, I would humbly submit that the Menorah which the Zionists have ripped off from us for their emblem would far better fit your criteria.)
Regardless, Rav Moshe stated that, from the viewpoint of halacha, neither A nor B is true.
As well, Rav Moshe’s calling them “reshaim” does not mean that Rav Moshe meant to exclude them from being ovdei A”Z, avi avos haTuma or anything else.
The greatest Torah sages from the past century have called Zionism both idolatry and heresy. To argue that Rav Moshe felt otherwise, based on conjecture from and diyukim in this teshuva, is impossible.
1. Rav Soloveichik says that the flag has kedusha because Jews died for what it represents. Regarding Rav Moshe, it is obvious to any bar data that if he thought that it was a symbol of idolatry he would not have allowed it. You are in a very serious state of denial.
2. What those sages said, they said about the anti-religious elements in Zionism. Rav Kook, on the other hand, said that they wwere Hashem’s unwitting tools.
3. Regarding Rav Teichtal’s son, that is his opinion. Others disagree.
This thread has gone way off topic. How about sticking to the original theme?
Hakatan- My diyuk is pretty fair. Both statements A and B are objectively true, based on how the halachos of avodah zarah work. It’s very simple. The Zionist flag is objectively the “key symbol and object” of the movement. Acc. to the shitah that it’s a”z, then objectively, the flag becomes an object of a”z. Just like the cross is an object of a”z. Since Rav Moshe doesn’t say this, he must think the movement isn’t a”z.
Avi K:
1. So if Jews die for the a football team to win the championships then that makes the team holy?
Even better, the American flag is, then, also holy, because Jews have died in the American army for America?
2. No. The quote from Rav Elchanan Wasserman goes something like “Zionism is A”Z; Religious Zionism is religion mixed with A”Z”.
3. It’s irrelevant regardless. He wrote during the war and clearly is not in a position to take on the gedolim who both preceded and followed him who very much do not agree with what the Zionists try to make Rabbi Teichtal say.
ZB:
I disagree.
HaKatan,
1. “One who has been killed by non-Jews is buried in his clothes, so that his blood may be seen and avenged… In other words, the clothes of the Jew acquire a certain sanctity when spattered with the blood of a martyr. How much more is this so of the Blue and White flag, which has been immersed in the blood of thousands of young Jews who fell in the War of Independence defending the country and the population… It has a spark of sanctity that flows from devotion and self-sacrifice. We are all enjoined to honor the flag and treat it with respect”, (Rabbi Soloveitchik, Five Addresses, p.139). This certainly not true of a football team. So far as America has shared values with Am Yisrael (this is an essay in itself) fighting for America, especially in WW2, might give the flag some special significance but not kedusha as it is mainly a non-Jewish symbol (don’t forget, Jews make up less than 2% of the American population).
2. “Something like”? Rav Tzvi Yehuda (Kook) said that religious Zionism is a redundancy because our religiosity makes us Zionist and our Zionism is rooted in religion.
3. Who says?
Hakatan has graduated from distorting Rav Moshe to dragging Hagaon Hatzaddik R Elchonon Wasserman into his muddy waters.
While I in no way think Israeli government is a good thing, They are Yidden and to call them (and anyone who hangs their flag) Ovdei avoda zara is Lashon Hara at best and most probably falls under the umbrella of Motzee shem ra
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.