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observateen, i disagree youre only influenced if you want to be. i have friends who do things i would never do and thats that. i still respect them, bec they happen to be amazing ppl, but i dont approve of what theyre doing and they know that bec ive made it clear to them. if you know the difference between right and wrong then youll make the right decisions the same way i do and tons of others do on a constant basis.
RSRH: That was what I used to think. This is not about being selfish, though. It’s just that I came to realize that we’re too young and inexperienced to deal with such a complicated issue. ESPECIALLY if you’ve got some doubts yourself. Endangering your Yiddishkeit won’t exactly be of any help to anyone. Besides, it says somewhere (not exactly sure where) that your life comes first.
ok observateen maybe you shouldnt be around such ppl but thats not for everyone. it’s like kiruv not everyone can do it bec they might be influenced. but if youre thrust into it its a different situation. if it’s your brother or your friend it’s different than making a decision to be around such people. it’s wrong to just drop people. it may be hard but you should be there for them. when someone is going through a hard time they need people who care about them. if you cant be there for them and genuinly care for them then maybe you werent such a good friend in the 1st place if that’s what’s makeing it or breaking it. and especially a brother. he’s a brother for life you cant just get rid of him.
such a person should try to connect to them through other things you dont neccessarily need to connect through religion.
so rikki maybe try to find something in common and have a relationship through that.
You should find out what in particular led him to this path.
It is one thing to skip a mincha, or to eat a treif thing because of curiosity.
Here THere may be something bad that happened to him that should be discussed.
Also there can be psychological issues, for example, I myself, hate going to Shule, at times, because I hate the crowds, the whole social aspect. So sometimes I just don’t go.
Not saying this is a good mida, but
you see that reasons for actions are important.
Much luck to you.
hey rikki i think im probably about as old as you and i also just went through a rly hard time in my life. It wasnt a situation like yours so i dont know exactly what youre going through but from my heart to you, for your own good, please do talk to someone older you can trust to talk to. Unfortunately, I know a lot of us high schoolers havent developed that kind of relationship with someone like that; if so, try to find the number a person who has a strong reputation for handling things like this and call them anonymously(tlking anonymously also has its benefits like maynish said).
I was indeed a VERY good friend. Too good. THAT was what ruined me. I didn’t drop her on my own. I asked a shaila and was told to drop her. I’m not a rav and can’t paskan for Riki, but, neither can you. Again, this is far more complex than you think – I’TS NOT MEANT FOR A HS GIRL. Going OTD needs PROFFESIONAL help AND Daas Torah. Besides, I didn’t say she should DROP her brother (which is impossible). She should be nice and set a good example of a frum girl, but it’s not she who should be dealing with him. She’s not in charge of his status in yiddishkeit.
also just a tip: go up to the person and ask if u can tlk to them at blank time in blank place without telling them what your talking about; they’ll say sure and then when your in the room with them youll have no choice but to open up and speak. I know this sounds strange and psychological, but I also know how hard it can be to open up to someone so maybe this could help
observanteen– well said!
it seems it’s very easy for people to ‘arm-chair’ pasken… living the experience is soo hard! I emphathize.
how can you be to good of a friend? although if youre problem was that you were trying to change her than yeah i can understand what happened. you shouldnt be the one to help them. you should just be a friend nothing more. so rikki should not be discussing it with her brother unless he brings it up and even then only discuss it if she feels she can.
observanteen…i think your advise may backfire. The OTD person may feel further isolated and withdraw from yidishkite even further. I also don’t agree with “save yourself first” mentality, it seems rather selfish to me and are contrary to showing true chessed and compasion. There is a saying you attract more bees with honey then vinager. I think dealing with OTD’ers is similar. Many experts (rabbis) agree with keeping communicaton open and continous. Arent we taught that we should push away the sinner with our left hand but pull them in with the right???I also find it frightning that one would be so threatned by a OTD person that they themselves fear they may go off as well. I would hope the many years of schooling both in the classroom and home would be enough to keep one on the right path, regardless of whay their friend/brother may be doing. Are you so easlity influenced that you will simply follow what another person is doing, just becasue?
Riki77, been there done that with two siblings. Even though I was older than both of them and come from a FFB family, I knew I wasn’t strong enough to deal with them on my own. (Specially the one who went OTD when I was still living at home. My parents relied on me to help her the most since I was the “coolest” one living at home.) When I saw what I was up against, I got in touch with a great Rabbi in town (without telling my parents), and he was a lifesaver! Would not have been able to help her as much without it. She is who she is, and we still love her, but the Rabbi was great with her.
But there is always hope, the other sibling that went OTD, is the most Yeshivish in my family today. Just keep your head up and get someone to talk things over with.
obnoxious: That was exactly it. When you’re very close to someone who’s suffering, you’re gonna try helping them, right? It’s nearly impossible for a teen to be close to an OTDer without getting affected. We don’t have the experience that is needed for kiruv. Nor do we have the experience to deal with emotional issues (which are in most cases the reason to go OTD). I don’t think I ever heard of a teenaged therapist that was successful…
observanteen, You have to RESPECT another person’s right to make choices whether you like the choices they make or not. So if HE chooses to be mechalel Shabbos that is HIS choice and it is between HIM and Hashem and they will have to work it out together. He is still Rikki’s brother whether he is shomer shabbos or not. AND her lover for her brother does NOT go away because he has sinned. Guess what? Hashem does NOT stop loving US because we sin!!! He still loves us and still keeps his arms open awaiting for us to return to him betshuva! HE never turns his back on us.
I feel sorry for you that you were not strong enough in your own relationship with Hashem and that your friend was able to confuse you. Honestly, those kids who are in pain and going OTD are not looking to take anyone with them. Those who are already off, will help others in pain. If YOU argue with them or try to prove them wrong they will fight you hard. That is probably where YOU faltered. Not everyone can work with OTD kids because not everyone knows how to reach them. And if you don’t know what to do, you will hurt them more and they will do their best to hurt you back. That is probably what happened to you. That is why those who do not understand the parsha are rarely successful dealing with the parsha.
You have a problem with sinning and you should and you should be very careful not to. However you have no right to judge someone who is going through a nisayon because you have no clue what kind of pain they are in nor why. Did your friend tell you why they were doing what they were doing? Do you know why your friend went OTD? Did she tell you what happened to her that she went “sour”? You have no clue what is going on with Rikki’s brother so please don’t judge him either. And you are not in a position to advise Rikki either. None of us know his story.
observateen sometimes helping is just being there. you dont have to have all the answers and nor do you have to be a therapist. yes it’s painful to watch and not be able to activly help but just being there as a friend is helping even if it doesnt seem that way. as for kiruv there are teenagers in kiruv just look at the kiruv camps. ive been there and some girls are amazing and for some girls yeah its not for them and the girls who were amazing werent neccessarily cool or had all the answers they were genuine and if someone asked a question and they didnt have an answer they tried to get them one they didnt make one up. they were themselves and thats the key to being successful.
aries2756 and obnoxious…i think you are both 100% correct.
“That is probably what happened to you.”
Absolutely wrong. I won’t bother going into details since you never seem to get my point. I hope Rikki’s smart enough to ask Daas Torah and keep her distance while being there for her brother. Good Shabbos and Good Luck.
observanteen, like I said before, Rikki has the same right to be RESPECTED for her own choices, needs and beliefs as her brother everyone does, it is not a matter of keeping her distance. When a person understands what their own needs are and how they need to be respected they have a better understanding how to respect others as well. They also have a better sense of self and are stronger when dealing with others. Hatzlocha to all and remember that Hashem is with each of us through good times and bad. He never leaves our side so don’t be afraid to call on him for help, strength and guidance.
Rikki, I hope you remember that none of us have any professional experience in dealing with OTD teens. So this is just our thoughts on the situation, but please don’t make any serious decisions about dealing with this based on our opinions.
I will have you and your brother in mind when I daven, though, and that’s a lot more practical than than trying to advise you based on personal experience with OTD siblings(which I happen to have…). Cuz one thing is for sure-no two situations are alike.
Hang in there and talk to Hashem (and friends, of course)when things get hard…
Good Luck and Good Shabbos!
I haven’t read through this thread in depth, but I do know what observanteen is talking about. Going OTD is definitely cantagious, I know numerous cases, some of which I’ve dealt with personally, and children sometimes try grabbing their siblings and gang up against their parents. Every case is individual, but the problem definitely exists.
observanteen raises a good point. Chayecha kodmin – the first order of business must be to keep yourself safe. If this requires limiting the amount of time/effort you put into your brother or friend, so be it.
rikki77, I know others have said this, but it’s worth repeating: find yourself a Rav/Rebbitzen who you can confide in and connect to, to can guide you. Then he/she will be able to judge the exact circumstances and personalities involved, and show you the most effective path for both you yourself and how to help your brother.
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