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What is your opinion — do shuls HAVE to accept anyone off the street to be a mispalel and member of the shul?
In particular, my shul has someone who recently started davening with us who is ma’aver sedra (I assume) between aliyos (bein gavra) extremely loudly, despite being asked by the gabbai to quiet down so as not to distrub our very quiet minyan.
In addition, he has a very disgusting habit of clearing phlegm from his throat (also very loudly) into a tissue without going to the back or lobby so as not to disturb the other mispalelim.
Do the members need to accept such behavior simply because he wants to daven with us? If not, what can be done?
No different than throwing someone out of yeshiva. Would you throw someone for this out of yeshiva?
Why is his doing what he’s doing better off in another shul? Or do you expect him to be excluded from all shuls in Klal Yisroel and told to stay home on Shabbos?
His throat issue may be a medical issue of his that he needs to often do.
Shuls should accept everyone, but that does not mean that they cannot have rules.
What does your shul’s Rav say?
If you don’t have one, your shul is hefker, and anyone can
come in and do whatever they want to. I’m only sort of joking.
Lior:
1) Accepting and throwing out are different, even for a yeshiva.
2) Shul membership and being in a yeshiva are different.
A yeshiva bochur is the responsibility of the yeshiva, but
a potential shul member is not the responsibility of the shul.
What may happen to a yeshiva bochur if he is expelled is not at all what may happen to a grown man if a shul doesn’t want him as a member.
3) It would be better somewhere noisy where no one cares about what he’s doing. If a person cannot be considerate of others,
perhaps he should stay home…
(Phlegm in the throat is presumably an effect of a
temporary medical condition, but his attitude towards/awareness of others shows through how he handles it.)
If he has a medical condition requiring him to consistently clear his throat, it may be unreasonable to expect him to constantly walk out to do so.
And it may indicate a lack of consideration and proper derech eretz by another member of klal yisroel for someone to berate a person suffering from such a medical condition by calling his suffering a “disgusting habit”.
I once was at an upstate summer shiur by Rabbi Moshe Meir Weiss. He related that a mispallel once asked him to move another mispallel to a different table since that person was consistently, week after week, letting out gas. Rabbi Weiss told him bluntly that he could move himself to another table but that he would not C”V embarrass someone who may be suffering from a medical condition.
Lior: If this person has a medical condition, he should be cognizant of his own condition and sit near the door. We are required to be nice to people and sympathetic towards them, but this should be a case of someone not being sympathetic to themselves.
If a person is suffering from a longer term medical issue I don’t know that expecting him to make his seat to regularly be by the door alone is either reasonable or appropriate. (Additionally, presumably there are other mispallelim seated near the door, in which case it wouldn’t change the equation.) And I also note that idea wasn’t the conclusion reached by Rabbi Weiss in the incident I related above.
Sometimes we’re supposed to be nice to people even if they’re doing something wrong.
Frumguy, there’s very possibly a good reason why the Rav wouldn’t get involved in something like this, such as malbin p’nei chaveiro.
Also, it’s not someone “clearing his throat,” it’s sort of coughing up
mucus. It can be rather unpleasant to hear.
“clearing phlegm from his throat (also very loudly) into a tissue”
-first post in the thread
I would imagine the above incident with the gas was even more unpleasant to the surrounding people.
If he was sitting near the door, he could go out easily,
and not be near the people sitting near him, but if he was
planning on going out, he’d have sat there himself.
(Rav Weiss did not address whether the actions of the
man with the possible medical condition were justified.)
While DaasYochid is correct in saying that “Sometimes we’re supposed to be nice to people even if they’re doing something wrong”, wouldn’t a Rav be a good person to ask if this is one of those times?
It would not embarrass anyone for the Rav to instruct
the gabbai on how to handle the situation, and that might
even prevent someone else from embarrassing the man.
The well known story of Rebbe, Rav Chiya and the garlic is understood by the ????”? as precedent for the ???? that even ?????? ????? ???? ????? so as not to embarrass another person.
Switch shuls if you need to, but by no means humiliate another person – even if he did the wrong thing.
As with most minor annoyances, if you work to develop a positive relationship with this person you will find that these problems won’t bother you nearly as much, and perhaps not at all.
In general, it’s worth noting that the more accepting you are of other people’s bothersome and inconsiderate conduct, the better off you will be. Nobody benefits from tolerance more than its practitioner.
You’re assuming there’s an available spot to sit at near the door. Or that he should awkwardly stay next to the door, week after week if it is a longer term issue.
For me, the mucus is less of an issue than the loud maavir sedra, as one could be involuntary, and it would be wrong to make an issue out of it, unpleasant though it may be, whilst the other is both out of keeping with the tone of the shul and insensitive, as he has already been asked to stop.
I think the rav should invite him for a Shabbos meal, and talk to him about it after dinner, after sending the family out of the room.
No should be excluded from davening in shul if he sincerely wants to daven. If he is just a leitz, looking to disturb people, which is not the case here, then there is room for debate on the issue. If he is doing things that prevent others from focusing on davening, he should be spoken to in a friendly manner when he is not going to be defensive, as he would be in the shul./ A smart rov should be able to think of a tactful way to convey this to him. And if not, then perhaps the rov should give a drosha in Shul on the proper derech eretz for the Kehillah.
Might not approaching someone about his flatulence well be
considered embarrassing in a way that approaching him about
this coughing-stuff-up issue would not be?
I used to think shuls should accept everyone however recently 2 individuals occassionaly attend my shul have made me change my mind
One has been accused of certain things (bur not convicted) that could put the safety of children at risk. Thankfully he does not live in the neighborhood, but was considering moving. When he comes we closely observe him and if he would move to the neighborhood and join our shul I would strongly object to him attending
The other who does attend semi regularly is a bit off and behvaves strangely and sometimes a bit menacing . I know the Rabbi is watching him closely
The fellow already comes to daven. The question, it seems, is not whether to accept him, but rather whether to throw him out.
ZD’s cases are much different, because there is a safety issue. One shul I know of deals with such situations by closely monitoring the fellow, and without overtly offending him (his guilt unproven) not making him feel too comfortable.
Even if it doesn’t happen all the time does not indicate it isn’t a medical issue. You cannot simply make an assumption.
“This hasn’t yet been brought up to our Rav. Knowing the Rav, he probably wouldn’t want to get so involved in something such as this.”
I think you have answered your question.
It seems you have a problem with the Rav, not with this guy. Take it up with him.
Your Rov, you indicated, would not do anything to reprimand or otherwise address this issue with the person you have a problem with. That should indicate a lot to you. The Rov’s not doing anything, even if asked as you said, says he thinks it best not to be brought up with him.
Much like the incident related above by Rabbi Weiss regarding the guy in shul passing gas. That is even worse than what you are experiencing and yet the Rov explicitly said he will not talk to or do anything regarding that Yid.
And an Alter Yid who made it through the milchama who comes with an oxygen tank? does that also offend your sensitivities for a quiet davening?
I was recently at a shul in Marine Park where the Rav made a speech delineating who can and cannot daven there.
It was right after the Har Nof massacre. He got up and spoke about talking and other distractions during davening. He spoke of the evils of talking, checking your email, text messaging, etc. during davening. As it is, I agreed with him 100% on those issues. I am very careful not to talk during davening.* I also do not pull out my phone during davening for any reason.
However, it is what he said towards the end of the speech that prevents me from going back there. He said that in the shul one must not talk during davening, one must not check his email or text message and if you see it, you should protest against it and, if you can’t do that, he said, you should find someplace else to daven.
My policy is to not rebuke anyone. I’ve stated it on these boards before — it’s not a new policy of mine. I simply will not do it. The few times that I have done it, it turned out very badly. Afterwards, I went over to the Rav and told him that while I agree with the overall sentiment of his speech, I simply cannot do as he asks. I cannot rebuke others who talk during davening.
The Rav said if you can’t do that, don’t daven there. So, I no longer daven there. So, I know from experience that a shul does not have to accept everyone.
The Wolf
* Aside from perhaps a quick “I’m sorry” or “excuse me” if I bump into someone or the like.
I don’t expect someone with an IV sticking out of his arm to come to daven b’rabim!
Why not?
U can approach him and ask if ur bothered by it
I know that I can’t sit/stay still for long periods of time when davening/ in a chair. Depending on when we are talking about and what activity requires me to be in the same area for an extended period of time, I either sit in the aisle, back, or to the side. The other issue though is the concept of makom kavua. If this person is preventing what used to be your makom kavua from remaining your makom kavua, you may need to (temporarily at least), move to a different place.
#The Ketoros have eleven spices, ten sweet-smelling spices plus the chelb’na, a foul-smelling ingredient. The 1o spices represent the Jewish community, symbolized by the number ten, the minimum microcosm of an eida, a representative community. The chelb’na represents the wicked who have temporarily divorced themselves from the community but must be included since they too must and will return to the fold. The offering of the ketores represents in a sense, the offering of K’nesses Yisrael, the totality of the Jewish people to HKB”H. The great love of HKB”H for his nation and even the wicked among them is thus actively demonstrated twice daily and once a year in the inner chamber, in the presence of the keruvim representing this love.
I feel like this guy is in the same category as the chelb’na… being that he has a “bad smell”, something that is bothering others. But if they were to bring the ketoros without that one bad smelling spice it wasn’t kosher. It may be very hard to bear this with patience, but he is one of Hahsem’s beloveds, and you never know who’s zchus is holding up who.
Once again, I am surprised at the focus on the coughing issue. This may be the more annoying of this man’s issues, but by itself it is, at least in my opinion, not a justification for asking him to leave. Asking him to stop, perhaps, but to castigate somebody for such a personal habit, even if it does disturb others, is unfair.
But the shanyim mikra, in my eyes, is more of an issue. He could do it another time (bein gavra is hardly enough time to cover more than half), he could be quieter, especially considering the character of the shul. The fact that he has been asked to stop and hasn’t indicates he isn’t the easiest person to deal with, and since this practice disturbs davening (in what I assume is a smaller shul), the situation should be dealt with, if possible with the participation of the Rav or Gabbe, as delicately as possible.
Although the tone in which the question is placed, and I apologize if I am being presumptuous, indicates that there is some sort of personality clash involved, that he may not be the most pleasant of individuals, perhaps leading to his difficult habits being exacerbated in your eyes. This is amueter psychology at it’s worst, and I am truly sorry if I am barking up the wrong tree, but am I in any way correct in my assumption?
If the only issue had been someone being Shnayim Mikra V’Echad Targum too loudly between aliyos, no reasonable person would be proposing he be chucked out of shul for that reason alone.
Being chucked out of shul, perhaps not, but politely and firmly asked to quieten down, especially in a shul were the oilom are quiet, definitely. From the question it seemed that it was disturbing the aliyos. It is certainly a fairer issue to make a deal about than coughing.
The OP said between aliyos not during the aliyos. And the title of the thread seems to indicate a desire to chuck him out of shul.
Is the guy normal? (Has anyone had a conversation with him about
anything?) If he’s not, he must of course be treated more tolerantly.
DaasYochid, perhaps we should distinguish between
being a mispallel, being a shul member,
and terminating each of those statuses.
Lior, he said that they didn’t ask the Rov because
they don’t think he’d want to be involved, not
that they asked and the Rav didn’t do anything.
#poster, I don’t know if that’s a good parallel – the chelb’na
didn’t disturb the other ingredients, but enhance them.
NeutiquamErro has two valid points. As to the second, well, does
a shul have to accept someone difficult, who does not get along
with established members? That’s part of this.
Wolf, someone who cannot give tochachah in such a way as will
cause it to be accepted is patur from that mitzvah. I don’t
see why you’d be obligated to refrain from davening in that shul,
unless you just want to avoid conflict with that Rav, or halacha grants
Rabbonim the right to decide who may or may not daven in their shul,
regardless of whether they are doing or have done anything wrong.
In this case, chucking him out of shul based on the circumstances outlined is not an option, even as a last resort.
We are going round in circles a bit. On the one hand, asking somebody to leave a shul, however gently, is a very difficult thing to justify. But on the other hand, there does not appear to be any other solution to a difficult situation, as words do not appear to help.
What I am wondering is why he hasn’t listened to the gabbai. Either he doesn’t appreciate the problems he is causing, or he feels the complaint is unjustified, or he simply doesn’t mind causing a bother. As I asked earlier, is there any chance part of the problem might be some kind of personal issue, that he wouldn’t be inclined to respect the request because he doesn’t respect the requester? I’m sorry if this is unrelated, I just feel there seems to be more to this, for in most cases of a communal nature it would be natural to ask the Rav. So the fact that you didn’t appears to indicate, to my overly suspicious eyes, that it may not be a communal problem, rather a personal one. And this is purely conjecture, so I’m sorry if I offend.
Wolf, someone who cannot give tochachah in such a way as will
cause it to be accepted is patur from that mitzvah. I don’t
see why you’d be obligated to refrain from davening in that shul,
unless you just want to avoid conflict with that Rav, or halacha grants
Rabbonim the right to decide who may or may not daven in their shul,
regardless of whether they are doing or have done anything wrong.
I always assumed that the Rav of a shul had the power to ask people not to daven there. This particular Rav certainly believes he has the power if he can ask people who cannot or will not follow his conditions not to daven there.
The Wolf
I don’t expect someone with an IV sticking out of his arm to come to daven b’rabim!
I find the thought of someone being asked to leave his shul for this (or for having an oxygen tank as another person mentioned) highly repugnant.
The Wolf
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