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“And you know as well as I do that it (Flatbush Asifa)never would have happened without the CitiField asifa.”
Because it would have been unnecessary.
Unnecessary? Tell that to the thousands upon thousands of people who have gotten rid of unnecessary internet access and/or installed filters and monitoring programs.
There should be an Asifa to promote the concept of Asay Licha Rav.
Go for it.
It happens to be, that at the CitiField asifa, it was stressed than any internet access should be approved by one’s rov.
Daas Yochid: +1 on EVERYTHING you posted on this thread. You are 100% on target.
It is amazing how naive and foolish and willfuly blind some posters here can be.
@Boobie not trying to be callous here but yes your husband has an addiction but its not to the internet. there is no such thing as an internet addiction to my knowledge. people can be obsessive at times but not every obsession is an addiction. calling an addiction to inappropriate sites “internet addiction” is patently wrong.
jbaldy22,
It’s silly to get into semantics. It’s widely recognized that the behaviors we are referring to are addictive. People with problems such as Boobie’s husband suffers from are referred to therapists, and 12 step programs are implemented.
jbaldy22, I suggest you read up. Yes, there are organizations and sites that deal with “internet addiction”.
To you Boobie – I hope you read those articles I noted. As one of my jobs/projects/hobbies, I deal with a lot of recorded shiurim, men/women. This issue was definitely a biggie. Anyways, listening to PART of some speeches made me shudder. Bad. Really BAD. I can not imagine what you’re going through. ???? ???? ???? ????, with chochma, tifillah, and outside help you should pull through.
@DY it is not at all semantics because such addictions existed before the internet calling it an internet addiction is not factual and is incredibly misleading.
@ZeesKite, Csar i have read plenty on the subject and i still maintain my position read the rest of that paper and you will see that i am right. there is a reason why it has not been included by the APA as a disorder (they considered it but decided not to in 2010) – its not actually a distinct disorder. there are many psychologists who agree with me. please do actual research and don’t just google stuff.What’s the difference whether you classify it as its own disorder/problem or if you classify it as a disorder subset problem of another disorder. Either way it is a massive massive problem in society.
@DY it is not at all semantics because such addictions existed before the internet calling it an internet addiction is not factual and is incredibly misleading.
It absolutely is semantics because countless people have become addicted only because of internet access, especially unfiltered, and regardless of whether the underlying disorder existed before the internet, the cases of addiction have increased manifold since the advent of the internet.
Getting technical, based on the opinion of some psychologists (not all) does nobody any good.
Recognizing the danger, however, is an important step to prevent more people from falling.
@DY internet addiction implies that people who go on filtered internet would be no different in fact some of the articles you have posted on this site have made similar arguments.
internet addiction implies that people who go on filtered internet would be no different
There are definitely two aspects to it; on type of addict would go to SA.
The type you refer to, who is only on “kosher” sites, is not destroying his neshoma as badly as the first (so I wouldn’t say “no different”) but may still be causing himself and his family considerable damage through his behavior.
I for one research products on a daily basies, in fact most of the products are designer textiles. our network is filtered, there is no reason to have access to filthy sites in order to research an ite
Different products require differnt marketing techniques.
If you are selling textiles, the marketing is differnt than selling seferoim and that is different than selling entertainment.
I would not expect the author of a Sefor to have a FB fan page an tweet out tweets of his Sefor.
However I WOULD expect someone like Avraham Fried and or Lipa Schmeltzer to have a FB fan page (Both of them do or did until recently ) I dont know if they have a twitter account or not
I am frequently in Manhattan, Walking past Macys down Broadway you ALWAYS see Chassidim (I think they are Satmar) women shopping up and down that stretch of stores.
You all the time hear stories about People who spend way to much time shopping.
Does that mean we should have an asifa for Shopping addiction?
I see plenty of overweight people, there is definatly a food issue among some frum people
Does that mean we need an Asifa for Food addictions?
I am not naive, too many here are blaming the internet for other issues , no matter what goes wrong, its the “Internets fault” .
Right after the asifa a car accident on internet use (Not by the victims but by others)
jbaldy22
Interesting that you call me out, without knowing who I am or what I know.
All that I can tell is that I have a team of IT staff in my department, we have custom software with multiple websites. in other words there is extensive IT work. (we have four different locations spread out in a few different states).
There is no reason that any IT guy needs to visit netflox or any porn site, there is no reason why an IT guy cannot have guard your eyes.
By us, whenever anyone needs access to any site, it gets whitelisted. either just for the time that the requestee needs it, either permantly.
I have gone the extra step and explained my position (which happens to be those of the rabbonim). You on the other hand give empty arguments, you do not explain why you need unfiltered interenet.
iin case you did post a reason on one of your previous posts, forgive me.,
To ZAHAVAS DAD: once again I must say your posts continue to smack of ignorance especially about Internet and addiction. An addict does not go searching for ‘happiness’ on the Internet. He goes searching for relief, for escape from pain, for distraction. And afterwards they feel horribly guilty and ashamed. You know absolutely nothing on the subject and therefore it’s quite disrespectful to dismiss someone with knowledgable information as if yours trumps theirs. It doesn’t. Better not to comment on issues that you have no knowledge about than to sound ignorant and foolish.
Again you want to blame the internet and me for your husbands problems.
If you want to blame the internet for your husbands problems, go right ahead, One filtered internet will not solve the problem, he will just become “addcited” to the filtered sites and if you get rid of the internet entirely he will become “addicted” to something else.
His “Internet Addiction” is not the diagnosis, its the sympton.
Hopefully you (and him) will realize that and seek proper help Hatzlacha
Yes, there is an addiction, I know lots of people that cannot control themselves, they are on the net a big portion of the day. either on youtube or any other time spending site.
Putting a filter will not take away the additiction, however it will put limits and borders as to where the addict can surf.
Guard your eyes, will at least make the surfer think twice before he/she clicks on the site. (unless they are unashamed on their actions.
I really dont know why there are people that fight tooth and nail against having a filter. i have not seen one reason NOT to have a filter.
The Amazon and Ebay sellers just give silly arguments, as to why they need access to porn sites. or as to why any site that needs to be accessed cannot be whitelisted. (three minutes wont kill the item on Amazon)
Not unless you can clarify your statement (in which case, I will gladly take it back and apologize).
DY: Lechatchila, should one be in kollel or working? Furthermore, would you disagree that many Rabbonim (especially Chassidish Rebbes) do not allow their flock to work in situations where they will be working together with both non jews & members of the opposite gender?
Do you deny any of this?
To jbaldy 22: I am constantly surprised when people speak confidently as if they know about something, while they are 100% wrong. It’s ok to say YOU don’t believe there’s such a thing as Internet addiction, but to say it doesn’t exist is patently false. I’ve spoken with several therapists as well as Rabbonim and all agree it most cranky is addiction. And the addiction is not specifically to inappropriate sites. The act of being online alone can be addictive, hence we are now hearing about texting as well. People with tendencies of compulsion or addiction are drawn in by the distraction it provides, not necessarily only in forbidden areas. Do some research before you make conclusions.
I really dont know why there are people that fight tooth and nail against having a filter. i have not seen one reason NOT to have a filter.
The Amazon and Ebay sellers just give silly arguments, as to why they need access to porn sites. or as to why any site that needs to be accessed cannot be whitelisted. (three minutes wont kill the item on Amazon)
In addition, I’m would think that the whitelist can be set up that any amazon.com site is allowed.
I spoke to someone who went to the Asifa in the Five Towns, and it was very much like what I would have expected the original asifa to promote. Too bad the original got hijacked.
Zeeskite, thank you so much. I am seeking help even though my husband has so far refused, and I am trying to deal with this as best I can, to try nd presve the sanctity of my home, as well as my emotional well-being. The support of caring people like yourself really helps.
To Boobie- Hi! Are you still out there, or have you left in disgust? I’m pretty new here, and just stumbled on parts of this thread. I was so shocked i had to send you a note. I didn’t know people were allowed to post such mean, heartless comments! I have no idea why anyone would have called you a lurker- no idea what they meant. It seems you’re not sure either. I was especially upset by the poster who tried to blame you, by implying that the problem is that your husband doesn’t want to spend time with you, and you should figure out why! I think we can all agree that you have a big problem on your hands. And that the likelihood that you have a part in causing your husband’s internet addiction is slim to none. The fact that your family does not have a Rav makes matters more complicated, but, again, that’s not in your hands. You can hardly force your husband to have a Rav. That, by the way, is a problem in many homes, and you are not alone there either. There are no easy solutions. I can only tell you that lurker, poster, blogger or human being, whichever of those you are, my heart goes out to you. I hope and pray that you & your husband find a way to restore the peace & serenity of your home.
@ZAHAVASDAD You can’t be serious about the comparisons you make between improper Internet use and shopping/food. Last I heard, shopping and eating were not grave Aveiros, and neither one has the potential to make a person fall to the lowest spiritual depths, and I’ve never heard of excessive shopping or eating being the cause of marriages breaking up or homes being destroyed. You are siously clueless about the dangers of intent (intentional, or just naive?) But before you make these pointless arguments perhaps you should do some research. Even the non-Jewish society has written articles by researchers about not only marriages breaking up because of Internet, but about the dumbing down of society because there’s no reason for any child (or adult) to do any type of research any more…all they need to do is hit google for any question they need answered.
@ZAHAVASDAD Did you ever hear me say a filter will help my husband? I have been trying to get him to go peak to someone so they together can work on the addiction, and I am well aware that addicts frequently substitute one addictive behavior for another. But you have to admit that an addiction to food would not be in any way as destructive to a Frum home or a Frum marriage as improper Internet usage is.
@2scents i have posted reasons before but i will do so again. no filter is perfect and if you are running scrapers and a filter decides to block something it can become very difficult to find the issue. in addition if the filter decides to block something on a major site or i need to access a new site that is not allowed on the filter a loss of thousands may result as the market changes rapidly from minute to minute. one of the companies i work for is a data aggregation company – a filter would create a bottleneck in such a case and i can just imagine what my boss would say if i would want to email my history to someone. a company also needs to be able to directly access facebook and twitter as this is an integral part of marketing strategy in todays day and age.
@DY the second type of person – the one who goes on kosher sites for hours is not an addict that is precisely what i am saying. not every obsessive behavior as an addiction. labeling at as such implies that the internet is some mind sucking device which it is not. that is not to say that anyone who spends numerous hours on the internet is neglecting his family and doesnt have problems obviously the contrary is true but it is not an “internet addiction” and as a psychologist just dealing with the internet portion of the issue would be a grave mistake.
GAW:
That’s not the only thing you said.
What is your definination of a site that needs to be “Filtered”
Pesach Krohn defines YWN and VIN as sites that need to be “Filtered”
Others have claimed that FB and Twitter need to be Filtered
One Satmar Rebbe claims YAHOO needs to be filtered
Other Gedolim claim THE ENTIRE INTERNET needs to be filtered.
How about Godaddy, They are a Domain Registration Site , but use Schumtz methods to advertise. Should GoDaddy be filtered?
I dont know if GAW was being serious or Sarcastic, but I do know my Kollel cousins do have this disdain or work and consider it a punishment.
Maybe they dont consider work to be a B’divevd, but they certainly do not look positively upon it as a a mitzva asseh in the same vain as they do putting on Tfillin
@Boobie
“I’ve never heard of excessive shopping or eating being the cause of marriages breaking up or homes being destroyed”
of course excessive shopping and eating have been causes of divorces
“the dumbing down of society because there’s no reason for any child (or adult) to do any type of research any more”
there advantages and disadvantages of having the internet – i know a lot more than i ever would without the internet, there is no substitute for good researching skills but there is also no replacement to having databases such as google scholar, westlaw, and msdn at my fingertips.
But you have to admit that an addiction to food would not be in any way as destructive to a Frum home or a Frum marriage as improper Internet usage is.
I would say that Diabetes, High Cholestoral , High Blood Pressure, Obesity , Heart Disase which can be caused by food and certainly if you have these maladies you need to watch what you eat, is VERY destructive to a frum marriage
Also Bullemia which is a also a food disorder is not a positive effect on frum marriages
There is a vast vast difference between something that causes a humongous amount of destruction (such as inappropriate internet usage) and something that causes destruction in very limited circumstances or frequency (such as eating or shopping disorders.)
DY: want to explain what I missed? Kollel being l’chatchila, Parnassa as B’dieved, and the Asifa Rabbonim (very strongly Chassidic) being strongly against working in the outside world with outsiders, if not holding that it is “assur Mammash”.
P.S. I agree they probably hold working in the outside world is “assur Mammash” like less than four inches below the knee is “assur Mamash”, but that is what they put out there, not me. ZD, when he quotes the asifa rabbonim, is doing himself a disservice, as many, if not most, Gedolim and Charaidi rabbonim don’t hold of their mehalech in life.
What is your definination of a site that needs to be “Filtered”
Pesach Krohn defines YWN and VIN as sites that need to be “Filtered”
Others have claimed that FB and Twitter need to be Filtered
One Satmar Rebbe claims YAHOO needs to be filtered
Other Gedolim claim THE ENTIRE INTERNET needs to be filtered.
How about Godaddy, They are a Domain Registration Site , but use Schumtz methods to advertise. Should GoDaddy be filtered?
So your solution, since there is not a consensus, is that no filter should be used? That’s a senseless argument.
my Kollel cousins do have this disdain or work
That’s not something I agree with.
and consider it a punishment
It is – B’zeias apecha tochal lechem is a curse.
they certainly do not look positively upon it as a a mitzva asseh in the same vain as they do putting on Tfillin
You do?
jbadly22
OK, in other words what you are saying is the your company would not permit a filter.
You can still have a Blacklist filter.
besides the fact, sites can be unblocked in seconds.
if you work with a blacklist, bottlenecks should not an issue.
it is not an “internet addiction” and as a psychologist just dealing with the internet portion of the issue would be a grave mistake.
Of course there might be underlying causes which should be dealt with, but clinically, it is treated as an addiction (12 step).
i can just imagine what my boss would say if i would want to email my history to someone
They don’t send out lists unless inappropriate sites are visited. Contact Web Chaver for confirmation.
I don’t know too much (anything, actually) about webscraping, but why would you need to scrape porn sites? Filters are customizable and don’t have to be whitelists.
Zahavasdad.
Good question. I am not in a position to answer those questions.
You have to discuss that with your Rav.
I was referring to your argument that you MUST have unfiltered internet. I do not see that this should be the case.
GoDaddy, Even if this site needs to be filtered due to its filthy commercials. I dont think that you need to register domains on a daily basis. If you do, then ask your Rav
I would say that Diabetes, High Cholestoral , High Blood Pressure, Obesity , Heart Disase which can be caused by food and certainly if you have these maladies you need to watch what you eat, is VERY destructive to a frum marriage
And therefore we shouldn’t be concerned about the destructive affects of internet abuse? I still don’t get this point of yours, which you keep repeating.
Yes, there are other bad things in the world. We should do something about them as well. But don’t therefore ignore what is a HUGE problem.
OK, So being addicted to the internet is not an addiction, who says that it has to have a label?
It does not change the situation.
@ZAHAVASDAD: All I can say to you at this point is, if you actually believe that the RISK of an overwater developing all those illnesses l”a having anywhere near the potential of spiritually destroying a Frum home, then having a discussion with you is intellectually impossible.
Yes indeed, diabetes and bulimia are as much of a risk as Internet abuse, correct? Oy.
Zehavasdad: Just curious how can you tell the women shopping in N.Y.C. are Satmer?
OK. Let me come out clear for all.
The reason I kept away from this thread in the past, is as stated before, I didn’t want to ?? ????? leave any negative effect on the most serious issue. Something similar to ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? or whatever. The ?????? of diminishing the seriousness of this issue is something I do not take lightly.
Now it seems like there are people willing blatantly, purposefuly blind to the facts known and expressed at length, over and over. I think Dass Yochid has done a terrific job with her/his peices, in installments. ?????? ???? ???, truth shines through, even though people “fight tooth and nail” to try to cover it up. I suppose “the truth hurts”. Yes it does. But a smart person begs HaShem as (I think) Rabbi Wachsman said – let the tears (hurt) wipe off any unclean image. ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ??? ???. It takes a certain amount of courage to earnestly, honestly recognize the situation, commit to change.
To you Boobie,
We’re all rooting for you. You’re placed at this unique challenge, because HaShem knows you will be able to handle it. Again, go to that site, the section that deals with your specific issue. I believe they can email him (anonymously) a starter message, something that can pull him in. They have experience. They do. Again, it’s all L’shem Mitzvah!
When these issues involve a spouse it can get painful. Rightfully so. That’s where ???? ???? plays a role. Go to that site. They’ll guide you, ever so compassionately and caring. They’ll provide you with an abundance of support, much more than silly me has to offer.
Please, make the move.
??????
I only use Godaddy as a Domain Registrar, but they do offer other services like e-mail and actual website creation, If you use these services then I can see daily use nessasary (They dont make their money off Domain registration, they make it off these other services)
But as I said SATMAR declared that YAHOO was a Filthy website . Why because of the entertainment News. I think Yahoo email is the #1 site for e-mail.
Do you think YAHOO should be Filterd???
DY according to you stats given before 10% of people have an “internet addiction”
So because of this 10% we must throw out the baby with the bathwater,
What is I told you 10% of Frum jews have some sort of Food Issue (Obesity , Bullemia Diabetes etc) Should we Filter Food because of these people.
@Boobie. I am Sorry for your issues, but if Someone is an Alcoholic, YES they need to be kept away from Alcohol. If someone is a gambler, they need to be kept away from casinos and the Lottery and if Someone has an “Internet addiction” then they need to have their computer taken away.
@DY if they just filtered out inappropriate sites that would be great. based on my experience with filters they tend to block all kinds of stuff even on the lowest setting and they are pretty buggy this is not as noticeable to the average user but to someone who does a ton of internet searches it becomes extremely annoying.
@ a mamin
I can tell by the way the dress, Satmar women dress differently than other Charedi women, Now their could be other Chasidic groups who dress like Satmar .
The easiest way you can tell is Satmar Women wear Sheitels and then wear a Hat that covers about 2/3 of the Sheitel. Most other Charedim either wear a Sheitel, or wear a Tichel/Hat that covers all their hair. Also you hear them speaking Yiddish
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