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Obviously, you believe that doing the above in wrong, because it’s wrong to put ourselves into such a situation altogether.
Why is this more of a question on me than on you, since you also agree that a filter is important?
As far as I know, the brochure wasn’t written by a Rishon, and it’s pointless to try to make diyukim to “farenfer a shvere shtikel asifa kuntres” (although I could), but that statement is certainly true when one happens to find himself in such a predicament.
Ok, QUESTION: As far as the rules go on Yeshiva World’s Coffee Room- one isn’t allowed to post a long megillah, so why did this user need to post the entire pamphlet. This by the way, was sent to the cities out of town which weren’t able to make it to the ASIFA.
And yes, I agree with Morah Rach- why are so people talking about the ASIFA on the internet. Those that continue to talk about it, should be banned from the site. We get it already.
It’s just like when the rabbonim banned having a TV in the home. There are those that still do- and even many yeshivish families who have just a “moniter” even though the rabbonim assured it. So, those that are still on the internet talking about the asifa, are just wasting everyone’s time, and let them do their thing. It’s the same as having a TV in the home.
Those that will listen, will do what they think is proper.
In some cases, where it is a yeshivish crowd, and people talk about it like those that do it- are against yiddishkeit and are going to gihenom, personally, speak for yourselves. You can’t estimate why someone else does something.
If something is wrong, go to a therapist to seek help.
The only thing you should be saying about the internet, is that do not think you are immune to the yetzer horas that lurk on the net. To say that one should completely ban the Internet and to bring stories which have only those that bring out the bad, isn’t something I believe the rabbonim were just mentioning.
The calling of the asifa shouldn’t have been about banning the internet, which no matter what one says- that was the message. It should have been- FOLKS, BEWARE OF THE TZAR IT CAN CAUSE YOU, SHAMOR ES NAFSHOSEICHEM. Although, some of the messages they brought out were a bit extreme. To say that you can’t do anything, just lock yourself up in a room with a gemarah and have someone pass you dinner should be your lifestyle from now on…
We shall be Rabban Shimon Bar Yochai. It’s just not possible to live otherwise. In fact, wasn’t it Rabban Shimon Bar Yochai who came out and killed the first person he saw who wasn’t learning? So, Hashem told him to go back in the cave. The second time he came out he saw someone bringing two branches from the willow tree and asked him what they were for- he said- for shabbos b’samim. And even Rabban Shimon Bar Yochai saw the good in something which could have been used for the bad.
He realized that you can work in the world to use for service to Hashem.
A woman relates:
Years ago when I was in school, we had computers on which we learned to us various programs like Word, Excel, etc. Several students, 16- and 17-year-old girls, came up with a way to connect the computers to the internet. Incredibly this occurred in one of our heimishe schools.
The school administration is probably still unaware of this incident.
A young man relates:
rarely-used basement.
Now it was all mine. Over the next few years, I wasted countless hours sitting at that computer. I spent many hours with that old computer and tried to fix it myself on countless occasions, and with time I became a real expert in computers. Today, my skill has led me to become a computer technician. My father did not dream, at least not until after my wedding, that this is what his actions had brought me to. But for me, it was a real lesson about how one can never be too careful. Though he had decided to take the warnings to heart and throw the computer out, it was already too late. I had found a way to outsmart him.
A man told us:
I always wondered about my neighbor who had teenagers in the house and a computer with internet access. I actually liked the fact that when I needed internet access from time to time I could go to his house and use his computer. However, I often took the father to task, warning him about the dangers of the internet, and questioning his awareness of the perils it posed in a home. He always waved my concerns away, assuring me that he knew all about how to protect his children. He was himself computer-savvy and controlled the amount of time they spent on it. He would also explain that his children were good, ehrlich and obedient and were not even interested in the bad stuff. In short, they would not be hurt by the computer.
A father relates:
A man tells us that his friend, a ben Torah in his fifties with a large family of older children, once asked if he could come up to his office to download Shas from the computer onto a CD. The man readily agreed.
The next morning, at about 6 AM, when the owner came back to work, he noticed that the light in the window was on. He was sure that his friend had left it on by mistake. When he entered the office, his shock knew no bounds when he found his friend still sitting at the computer, glued to the screen. The ben Torah blushed and mumbled some excuse about having problems with the downloading and how everything took much longer than expected. He excused himself and left the office.
One Sunday, with her parents away, the girl invited a classmate and friend to join her in her activities on the internet. This went on for a year and a half, with the girl spending every second she could on the internet, and her friend joining her whenever possible. The friend also began bringing along CDs she had picked up somewhere.
Then, the father took the computer out of the home, not because he suspected anything but because he had switched jobs and needed the computer at work.
Challenge of the Times
Over the past two centuries, particularly in America in the past 50 years, Jews were faced with a new challenge: assimilation. Gone are Pharaoh, Haman and Hitler. In their place is emancipation and freedom. Rather than cowering from the stick, now we are enticed by the carrot.
Our rise from the ashes has indeed been astounding, unprecedented in the history of the world. A small core of dedicated and sincere Jews became the seed of a new beginning.
Gedolim and leading layman fought valiantly to create a comprehensive infrastructure of Torah institutions to educate the next generation. They oversaw the implementation of guidelines for behavior in our newest home in America. They strove to rebuild the sense of a Jewish community, an identity that would protect our distinction as the nation of G-d.
Instead of beguiling the Jews to leave the safety of their homes and blend in to their surroundings, the surroundings are being brought right into our homes! Remain in your own home, in a separate Jewish community. No need to change your clothes to fit in, no need to give up your Shabbos cholent. Keep lighting your menorah.
Keep going about every aspect of your life as a fine Jew. No need to go out and buy a television, only to have to hide it from your neighbors. No video screen, not even a computer!
We have it down to a palm-sized device, right there masquerading as your innocent cell phone. No one will ever know. Just keep it safely in your pocket until everyone is out of sight.
Bam!
Got you!
Of all the many traps facing the Jewish people in its long trek through history, none has come close to this latest ruse. The best has been saved for last. Just as Mashiach finally seems to be perched on the doorstep, the most potent poison of all is released. And the devastation it is leaving in its wake is absolutely horrifying.
Challenging Times
Hashem, in His infinite wisdom, saw fit to allow the internet to be introduced in our day and age. It is our weak generation, battered by the tests of so many centuries, that is being confronted with the nisayon of modern technology. Yet the Torah response is timeless. There is no question that unfiltered use of the internet is completely forbidden, no ifs, ands or buts.
Statistics show that a typical browser changes screens every two minutes. Links permit one to connect to new sites tens of times a minute. If one site does not catch you, the next one will. Surfing the web means dodging burning coals as they are falling from the sky like hail. What are the chances of avoiding burns? Of emerging alive?
All-In-One
From the perspective of a Jew who knows that his purpose in the world is to serve his Creator, this means that the internet is also a tool to provide access to ever type of vice to which a human may stoop. The internet provides an opening for each person to fall prey to his unique weaknesses.
Another person has a hot temper and is constantly getting into fights and disagreements with others. Words fly bitterly and it is only by a miracle that the fists do not join in. Now that person is introduced to the Word Wide Web. Instead of sleeping on the matter and cooling down by the following day, they can act immediately by sharing their anger with millions of others instantaneously. The flames of machlokes can be fanned like never before.
Because it is always accessible, 24/7, a person need not be entirely dissolute to be trapped. You can stand strong day after day and resist the temptation to sin. The internet is patient and will wait quietly to manipulate you in your moment of weakness.
Whereas in the past, weak individuals sinned in private, today they drag others along with them. The internet has raised the science of temptation to all new heights.
The Terrible Virus
But wait, is it really just 1%? Or are we lulling ourselves into a false sense of security? According to those who work with troubled youths, the rate is far higher.
So say also those who deal with shalom bayis issues. And the dayanim who serve on the Bais Din for gittin. And the rabbonim who are involved in all of these cases and more. It becomes apparent that the true toll of internet casualties is higher probably shockingly higher, than any of us can imagine. What we have seen and heard is only the tip of the iceberg.
We must realize that to be honest with ourselves we cannot count only those who have openly dropped their former lifestyle as a result of internet exposure. There are many who continue to go through their daily lives as before, continue to go through the motions of maintaining the Torah observant way of life, yet inside they have rotted completely.
How many boys continue to attend yeshiva, how many girls continue to attend Bais Yaakov, yet their hearts and minds are plugged up by what they have learned elsewhere. The delicacies they are served by their rabbeim and moros cannot compete with the junk food and pork they gorge in secrecy. The young man who sits next to you in shul with tallis and tefillin may feel completely estranged from his own actions as a result of tasting from the illicit waters. These people are going through the motions, while on the inside they have hardened into something not Jewish.
If only we could have all internet users fill out a secret poll about how many times they chanced upon disgusting photos, lashon hara, immoral movies and clips, we would learn very quickly just how safe internet use really is. Better yet: How many frum internet users would willingly submit to having the log of all the websites they visited in the past 12 months publicized for the entire world to see?
Everyone knows that it is dangerous to log onto the internet without any antivirus protection. There are literally thousands of worms, viruses, Trojan horses and other forms of spyware that are out to get you. They steal your personal information, destroy your computer and expose you to criminals who are there to hurt you and take advantage of you. Does exposing yourself to even worse spiritual dangers deserve any less concern?
Now it was all mine. Over the next few years, I wasted countless hours sitting at that computer. I spent many hours with that old computer and tried to fix it myself on countless occasions, and with time I became a real expert in computers. Today, my skill has led me to become a computer technician. My father did not dream, at least not until after my wedding, that this is what his actions had brought me to. But for me, it was a real lesson about how one can never be too careful. Though he had decided to take the warnings to heart and throw the computer out, it was already too late. I had found a way to outsmart him.
And exactly how did he “Waste his Time” He learned a valuable skill. You dont learn these things overnight, it takes time
These brochures assume that everyone on the web is using Scmhutz
Of course there are Shmutz sites, but there is also Hebrewbooks.org and other torah sites and there are Neutral sites like ESPN, maybe you dont like those sites, but they are harmless
Actually the top 10 website (Some are Social Media sites) arent Shmutz at all
Google
FB
Yahoo
Youtube
Wikipedia
MSN
Amazon
eBay
Twitter
Bing
And exactly how did he “Waste his Time” He learned a valuable skill. You dont learn these things overnight, it takes time
I didn’t really get the point of that either.
These brochures assume that everyone on the web is using Scmhutz
Not everyone, but a lot of people.
Actually the top 10 website (Some are Social Media sites) arent Shmutz at all
That doesn’t mean that the top activity on the net isn’t shmutz related, because there are so many thousands of shmutz sites.
Also, some of the sites you mentioned are far from “kosher”.
Youtube is a mishmash of videos, some very great to watch
Probably the most interesting that I saw was a video of Munktach from the 1930’s. It was various scenes from the town of Munkatch
It had the wedding of the Munkatcher Rebbe, It had a Mussor speech about Shabbos from the Rebbe, It had a shop scene from Munkatch , It had a Hora Scene and it had a bunch of Kids singing Hatikvah (With the original words that I didnt know existed)
It is sad watching the kids singing Hatikvah as you know in about 8 years (Not sure when the video was shot) all of them would be dead.
Hopefully the Mods will let me post this
If you have access to youtube
Search for this video
Jewish Life in Munkatch – March 1933 – complete version
totally fascinating especially for a history buff like me
While i happen to think the internet is a huge problem i also think that this booklet makes lots of assertions which are simply not true and people who read it will not come away with the assumption that the people who wrote it were trying to be reasonable at all.this booklet to me is symptomatic of the past problems rabbonim have had connecting with people in regards to the dangers of the internet.
i also think that this booklet makes lots of assertions which are simply not true
That’s a very broad, unsubstantiated statement. You’d have to be more specific to have that viewpoint taken seriously.
ZD,
I am not saying, nor is anyone that I know of, that everything on the internet, or on YouTube, for that matter, is treif. The problem is that a lot is treif, and the yetzer hora is ever present.
There’s also lots of time wasted here.
I don’t have access to YouTube, but I’ve seen the Munkacher Rebbe’s Shabbos speech.
A man told us:
I always wondered about my neighbor who had teenagers in the house and a computer with internet access. I actually liked the fact that when I needed internet access from time to time I could go to his house and use his computer. However, I often took the father to task, warning him about the dangers of the internet, and questioning his awareness of the perils it posed in a home. He always waved my concerns away, assuring me that he knew all about how to protect his children. He was himself computer-savvy and controlled the amount of time they spent on it. He would also explain that his children were good, ehrlich and obedient and were not even interested in the bad stuff. In short, they would not be hurt by the computer.
This story says the problem was computers – how do we know that at all – this is the ultimate blind assertion and a classic case of blaming otd kids on the internet while ignoring every other possible problem in our society. i could go through most of the booklet but im sure you are capable of seeing the same thing that I am seeing. In order to have an adult discussion about the internet exaggeration and hyperbole need to be taken out of the picture. You are the only person I know who actually had a positive reaction to this mess. As i have said before whoever decided not to hand out this booklet by the asifa was very smart – the flatbush internet asifa had none of this stuff in their booklet which i also think was very smart.
One Sunday, with her parents away, the girl invited a classmate and friend to join her in her activities on the internet. This went on for a year and a half, with the girl spending every second she could on the internet, and her friend joining her whenever possible. The friend also began bringing along CDs she had picked up somewhere.
CD’s predated the internet. Boom Boxes from the 1980’s had CD Players . The Discman also from the 1980’s allowed you to listen to a CD in private.
Cars have CD players in them.
Nowhere did she say she went to bad websites, althought she hinted she had “Bad CD”‘s…
Considering I make my parnassah from this way, This is also a scare tactic.
I was 17 and got my license, and I disovered the Car. I could drive anywhere, I could drive to the Movies, I could drive to the Mall, I could drive and meet members of the opposite gender.
Imagine all the Wasted time due to “Pleasure driving”.
Add up all the time you “wasted” driving somewhere and then learn a “driving Mesechta”
I am sure you get the idea…
This story says the problem was computers
It does suggest it, but even if in that particular case it wasn’t, in many others it is.
It is silly to ignore the very real message because there are other possibilities.
ZD,
Nowhere did she say she went to bad websites
It’s clear that they did from this quote:
Considering I make my parnassah from this way
So, if you ran a gambling website, would that mean we shouldn’t convince people not to gamble online?
Add up all the time you “wasted” driving somewhere and then learn a “driving Mesechta”
You make it sound like that’s a bad idea. It’s actually a wonderful idea.
In Almost all these stories you can subsitute ANY modern technilogical invention.
The automobile works especially well, but you can add the telephone, Cameras almost ANTHING that is found in your average ehrich family in Borough Park or Lakewood.
Imagine the following story, there is a person who knows he is jewish , but knows very few jews. He figures he will go on the internet and find out about judaism. So he googles Judaism and because most Charedim have banned the internet. He goes to a Jews for J site as they have not banned the internet and it comes up in the search. 6 months later he is now a full fledged Jew for J.
Luckily Chabad doesnt belive in these ideals and a Google of Judaism Chabad comes out on top (At least in my google test), So this story isnt exactly true (It once was however)
It is silly to ignore the very real message because there are other possibilities.
L’Toeles Harabim, one of the easiest ways to hide such a thing is on a flash card (which is smaller than your thumbnail), which doesn’t need a computer to view. All it needs is a digital camera or a digital picture frame. The digital camera can even play video.
@DaasYochid how exactly in the story i sent u at all implying that – if anything the story implies he has no clue what the cause was just that he “knows” they had unfiltered internet and it even says it was monitored. i think this is a common misconception that the internet and otd crises are interrelated – this is very much wishful thinking.
you said “It is silly to ignore the very real message because there are other possibilities.” the real message i see from this pamphlet is that we are blaming everything on the internet when there are way more plausible answers to the situation. The reason i believe this was not given out at the asifa is exactly what you said, ironically – this pamphlet is ignoring the real message they were trying to send.
Zahavassad:
I really don’t get what you’re driving at. You seem to be suggesting that if the internet is bad, then we should consider all other technologies bad. That is a very extreme and unnuanced position–it makes far more sense to do what we actually do, and only consider these which actually are dangerous as bad.
The fact is, that unlike some stupid email someone sent me: there was not a telephone asifa or a telegram asifa, or a refrgerator asifa. We are not anti-technology at all. When you suggest that we are being anti-technology, the disproof is obvious. When you suggest we are anti-technology and bring up cars; it makes you look like a fool, since you disprove yourself.
Tell us what your real argument is;please answer these questions:
Do you not think there is dirt on the internet?
Do you not think frum jews are accessing it more than they would otherwise?
Do you not think that is a problem?
Do you think it is a problem but the benefits outweigh the problem?
In Almost all these stories you can subsitute ANY modern technilogical invention.
Except that the destruction of Jewish families and sullying of Jewish neshomos which we see today en masse wasn’t taking place before widespread internet access.
GAW,
Sorry, I don’t understand your response to my comment. Could you please explain?
DY: It is “another possibility” brought on by the internet age that most people wouldn’t think of. People who are worried about their children bringing in “unfiltered internet” should watch for this as well (which is much easier to hide than an actual device). Perhaps locking up your digital camera is a good shemirah/Geder.
PBA:
I do not think ZD is saying that all technology ought to be banned. Rather, I think his intent is to argue the following:
There are several problems associated with the internet ie. harmful websites etc. There are those who would therefore have the internet banned because of these issues.
However, these issues exist in a plethora of other technological advances. Ie. if you are going to talk to a member of the opposite gender online, you can just as easily get in your car and drive to a place where you can talk to a member of the opposite gender. Why not ban driving?
If internet can be the cause of Bittul Torah and should therefore be banned, then the ban should also include such technologies such as cars, cell phones, digital cameras which also can tempt individuals to commit other aveiras.
To not ban other such “problems” would be inconsistent with the reasoning behind the banning of the internet.
Jblady:
I strongly agree with much of what you said. The stories make large leaps which definitely do not logically follow.
I could say that I know of two families who were frum and each of them had a son who wore green crocs to Shul on Yom Kippur. A year later, both of those sons were OTD. Must have been the shoes right?
Not really.
“the real message i see from this pamphlet is that we are blaming everything on the internet when there are way more plausible answers to the situation”
I agree with this statement.
when the Chofetz Chaim was shown the TELEPHONE, he cried, he cried because of all the Loshon Horah that could be spoken.
How much Idle Chatter occurs on the Telephone, not even Lashon Harah. Why not put a “Filter” on the Telephone.
Do you Deny that Countless Averas have been committed by the telephone , More than the internet could ever compete with
Why not put a Filter on Cars to prevent you from travelling to “Unkosher” place (With GPS and Tracking a ‘Car Chaver” is very possible)
Yes there is “Dirt” on the Internet
there is “Dirt” in Manhattan, Why not ban travel to Manhattan
Are frum jews accessing this “Dirt” . I am sure they are.
They can also access this “Dirt” in Manhattan, Atlantic City and Las Vegas
And Yes I do think the “Schmutz” Problem is GREATLY exxaggerated.
Do you deny the following Benefits
How Many Jewish babies were born because the couples met on J-Date
How much Torah has been spread by sites like Hebrewbooks.org
How much parnassah has been created from ebay, Amazon and webistes
How much money has been saved by people living in Israel being able to call families in the USA via SKYPE etc (Calls to Israel used to cost $1 a min or higher)
Etc
Of course I agree there are benefits. And there is always a balance of the benefits versus the dangers. That is why we use telephones even though we sometimes talk loshon hara on them, and the chofetz chaim didn’t say not to.
It is you who are insisting that there is only black and white, by insisting that we should either always say that any benefit outweighs danger, or that any danger outweighs any benefit.
If you think the benefits of internet outweigh the dangers–good for you! Use it in good health. But why must you mock people who think otherwise, especially seeing as we are talkimg about gedolim?
(And as far as your thinking the smut problem is exagerated, I’d like yo know what information you are relying on. My friends don’t usually tell me if it is a problem for them, but they often do tell the rav–which is how the rabbonim know.)
@popa_bar_abba i have to say the pamphlet is making a pretty black and white argument.
The Jews at the time of the first Bais Hamikdash, were Ovdei Avodo Zora, Giloou Arayos and Shfichas Domim without the Internet!!
i think this is a common misconception that the internet and otd crises are interrelated – this is very much wishful thinking.
No one “wishes” it, and no one is claiming it’s the only or even primary cause. But to deny that it has caused major problems is to blind ourselves.
GAW,
In context, “other possibilities” that I referred to were the possible causes of the spiritual decline of these Yidden, not possibilities of how to view shmutz.
But to respond to your comment, you’re right. If someone wants to be bad, he can be bad. The point of all the talk of filters and such is for people who want to be good.
if you are going to talk to a member of the opposite gender online, you can just as easily get in your car and drive to a place where you can talk to a member of the opposite gender
Absolutely NOT TRUE.
It’s much easier online, and that’s the danger.
And Yes I do think the “Schmutz” Problem is GREATLY exxaggerated.
How on earth would you know? You don’t. You’re just conjecturing that, because you don’t want anyone telling you what to do or not to do.
The rabbonim who deal with broken families and neshamos know that it’a a huge problem.
@DaasYochid “No one “wishes” it, and no one is claiming it’s the only or even primary cause. But to deny that it has caused major problems is to blind ourselves.”
The stories you yourself put up here shows to the contrary. I said people wish it would be the cause, because then it would be easier to ignore other problems in society such as our educational system amongst other things. I have never said the internet does not cause problems. however the exaggerations such as the ones contained in the stories you have posted have to stop. people will continue to ignore the problem if they keep on seeing and hearing things like this.
The reality is people only got to the Rabbanim when something is wrong, its human nature.
People dont go to the Rabanim when they have a good job are learning nicely and their family life is great.
They only go when there is a problem. In most of these cases there would likely be a problem with or without the internet.
I said people wish it would be the cause, because then it would be easier to ignore other problems in society such as our educational system amongst other things.</em.
Nobody is ignoring other problems. You just “wish” they were.
however the exaggerations such as the ones contained in the stories you have posted have to stop.
Actually, there are worse stories which didn’t make the brochure.
Stop underestimating the extent of the problem. Many, many families have been destroyed, and as long as people such as you understate the problem, it will be that much more difficult to help people.
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