Home › Forums › Bais Medrash › Must a Goy keep Shabbos?
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May 27, 2013 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #609449ChortkovParticipant
??”? ????? ?? ???? ? says that a ?? ???? is somebody who keeps the 7 Noachide laws, eats non-shechted meat, “??????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??????” – which means that he was warned and commanded to keep Shabbos.
Aaaah! So does that mean that every ??? out there is ???? ???? for not keeping Shabbos?
How does that fit with ????? ????? being Derabanan?
??? asks from the ???? that ??? ???? ???? ???? – and his ????? doesn’t help much, because ??”? is clear he doesn’t mean that.
Anybody heard a nice ??? in ????
May 27, 2013 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #956632wizardMemberlook at tosfos
May 27, 2013 11:47 pm at 11:47 pm #956633147ParticipantA Nochri who observes Shabbos in 15&1/2 weeks time, shall not be Chayov Missoh, as by default he shall also have observed Yom Kippur vis a vis Melocho, which does not render a Nochri to be Chayov Missoh.
May 28, 2013 4:52 am at 4:52 am #956634Sam2ParticipantYekke: SHU”T Binyan Tziyon 1:91 might answer this. It’s certainly related.
May 28, 2013 12:37 pm at 12:37 pm #956635ChortkovParticipantSam2 – I have heard a Binyan Tzion that a goy’s ????? is not ????? ????? but rather from physical labour, and therefore a goy who shlepps a sofa around his living room will not be ???? on ??? ????. However, a Yid who does physical labour but is not ???? on one of the 39 ?????? is not ???? ???.
So, I guess, according to that, a ??? MUST do physical labour of some sort, but MUST NOT be ???? ??? as we call it.
This is quite a big chiddush! If a goy asks you what he can do on shabbos, what would you say?
May 28, 2013 12:50 pm at 12:50 pm #956636ChortkovParticipantMy chavrusa suggested a tirutz – It depends why the goy is keeping shabbos – If he is doing it midin avoda zoro then it is okay; only if he is doing it midin shabbos it is a problem (He wanted to be medayek a Rambam that the only problem is the ????? ??, and that is not a problem if he is metzuveh). Doichek ketzas.
May 28, 2013 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #956637benignumanParticipantIt has been a while since I learned that gemara, but I remember learning pshat that Rashi is referring to a non-Jew that makes a formal kabbalah in Bais Din to become a ger toshav. Part of that formal kabbalah is that he will keep Shabbos, but it is not one of the 7 mitzvos for an ordinary non-Jew who has not made such a kabbalah.
(note this doesn’t really answer Tosafos’ question from ??? ???? ???? ????)
May 28, 2013 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #956638ChortkovParticipantbeninguman – I have heard before that a ger toshav MUST be mekabel 7 Noachide laws, and than CAN be mekabel any other mitzvos he likes.
You say that this is not 1 of the 7; this is something he is mekabel. Firstly, this is not the ?????? of ??? – he says ?????? ????? ?? ???? which does not sound like he was mekabel it on himself.
Secondly, ??? asks another ???? on ??? that there are only ??? ????? ??? ??, not 8. The Ponivizher Rov zt”l answers ??? that this is a ??? in ????? ???, which IS one of the 7, as ??? says ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??????, and if that is the geder hachiyuv, it is impossible to say that it is part of his kabolo.
May 29, 2013 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #956639HaLeiViParticipantMaybe when it says Akum Sheshavas it literally means an Oved Avoda Zara. In that case he is not being Shoves to show that Hashem created the world and it might even be an extension to his own Avoda Zara.
Another possibility is the opposite of what you quoted earlier. He is Mechuyav to rest enough to show a Shvisa, that Lechvod Shamayim he is not working. But this has nothing to do with the 39 Melachos necessarily.
This can actually answer Tosafos’ Kasha in that it is an Assay and not like the rest of the 7 Mitzvos Bnei Noach.
May 30, 2013 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #956640benignumanParticipantYekke2,
According to my pshat Rashi is not holding that Shabbos is one of the seven mitzvos. Rather Rashi is saying that Ger Toshav, in contrast to an ordinary non-Jew who must also keep the sheva mitzvos, makes a formal kabbala not to serve avoda zara that goes beyond the basic mitzvah for a b’nei noach and includes keeping shabbos. I think that this is pashut pshat in Rashi. Rashi makes the obligation to keep shabbos dependent on the GT’s kabbala. If Rashi held that it was really simple avoda zara it would be incumbent on all non-Jews, kabbala or not.
As to why things should be different for a Ger Toshav, Rashi doesn’t explain. But we can speculate that since he is living among Jews, it would be wrong to have chillul shabbos going on in the community. And that being m’challel shabbos b’farhesya is akin to avoda zara.
May 31, 2013 12:10 am at 12:10 am #956642ChortkovParticipantHalevi – I hear what you are saying; any goy who is not doing it leshem shamayim is chayav misah, however a ger toshav is mechuyav.
Beningnuman – I don’t understand how you are explaining the words ??????? ????? ?? ????
May 31, 2013 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #956643benignumanParticipant??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????
The Gemara says that “Ger” in Shemos 23:2 is referring to Ger Toshav. Meaning that the posuk is saying that Ger Toshav has to keep shabbos.
Rashi is explaining Why/How a Ger Toshav comes to have keep shabbos. An ordinary non-Jew doesn’t have to keep Shabbos but a non-Jew that makes a Kabbala in Bais Din to keep the Sheva Mitzvos gets the additional mitzva of Shabbos because being m’challel shabbos within the Jewish Community is like serving Avoda Zara.
May 31, 2013 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #956644littlefishyMemberObviously not, genius.
June 4, 2013 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #956645ChortkovParticipantI am not sure if this is what you meant, but the Ponovizher Rav says (NOT like I said before) that there must be a difference between a normal goy and a ger toshav, and he explains the difference that a GOY keeps the ??? ????? with Hilchos Goy and a Ger Toshav keeps them ?????? ???? ?????, as a “?????”, and therefore keeping ????? ??? of a YISROEL counts not being ???? ???.
(See also ???? ??? and ??? ???? on the daf)
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