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The second proposal being made is that people compensate shadchanim after a certain number of dates for having produced a “good potential”. The effect on the age gap is said to be that older girls will pay more.
I will respond based on my three points.
A. I am not convinced this will have an effect on the current age gap.
I am a guy, and I have dated. I always had multiple people I could go out with. I went out with whoever I thought had the best potential to lead to marriage. If a shadchan had bad ideas, I ignored him/ her and spoke to a different shadchan. If I felt a shadchan was being misleading, I would never deal with them again.
But really, the premise is faulty. If younger girls began to feel they were being ignored by shadchanim, they would also pony up the cash! Do we want to turn this into a bidding war?
B. This idea is achievable. Girls could start offering shadchanim money. But, as stated, it may not have the hoped for effect.
C. This idea is very dangerous. If singles are to pay shadchanim after a certain amount of dates, it would cause a pressure to not go on those further dates. A so-so third date would often result in a rejection if the fourth date will cost money. Witness how different the dating dynamic is when the parties are traveling to meet.
To summarize, the benefits are questionable, while the danger is real.
In thinking about the choice of title “musical chairs” I like the idea for a different reason.
Right now, much of what drives the litvishe shidduch market is the fear factor (I might not get married if a don’t dress a certain way… I may not get dates if a fess up to a certain non-conventional ideal which I believe in… all the good boys are going quick, so I better take the 1st one that askes, even though as things stand now, this one shows no indication of being able to support his family, ect)
In an open contest (which is necessary to play musical chairs) the most nimble players would win. Not yichus, not money. Your own abilities, your own talents would assure you a fair shot. And, before you enter the ring, you could see who the players are and decide if you want to try this round or look for another where you think you’ll find folks more similar to you (or at least how you see yourself)
And if this idea sounds familiar, it is. Its called a singles weekend. Pehaps not the right venue for 18-21 year olds (or 25 year old who can only relate to 18-21 year olds), who want others to do their homework for them, and are prepared to settle for whatever the market allocates them. But for young adults who have the confidence to earn their own rewards, this is an idea whose time has come (again)
AZ, it will change who meets which means men may marry older women. Isnt that what you are aiming for?
SJSinNYC-
There’s a stigma for a guy to marry a girl that is older than him, but it’s much easier for him to reject a name on paper than a person he met. I don’t know how well the singles weekend idea will fly but I do agree that if it worked there will be more guys marrying girls older than them.
By the way- How’d you celebrate your anniversary?
It sure will change the nature of the game. Here’s how:
1 – the boys will not be led to believe that there is a inexhaustable supply of girls, so they can be as lackluster as they want an still win
2- girls who are led to believe that they “dont stand a chance” becuase of some imaginary defect will realize they can control the game to a greater extent than they currently do (right now, its the shadchanim who hold the whole deck)
3- it will make parents set realistic support terms. Right now, if a so-so boy ahs a great agent, he can swing a better deal than someone with real talent (and girls / girls parents bite down hard an swallow this travesty because of the fear factor
And contrary to popular believe, there are EXACTLY the same ammount of boys to girls out there. Hashem see to that. What He does not control is our societies warped attitude.
And yes, I have see the “age gap data” that was released early this summer. My friends and I spent hours discussing and analyzing it. Yes, there are a small percentage of girls that are still stingle after being in the shidduch market for 5-10 years. But I’ll venture a guess and say there are the same number of single boys out there as well. Its just that they seem to have a longer shelf life (or so they think / are let to believe).
If we were to hold our youth accountable for their “marketabiity” we’d be pleasantly superprised at the results.
Dr Pepper, I think the stigma is slowly eroding. My 27 year old cousin just married a 26 year old guy. I married a guy 31 days my junior 🙂
I agree with BP Totty.
Oh and Dr Pepper – how did you remember it was my anniversary? We celebrated by going to a mutual friend’s wedding and we reminisced while we were there.
SJSinNYC-
2 points if you figure it out on your own.
Actually, let’s make it 5 points since it’s kind of wacky.
“there being more participants than chairs”
AZ – The chart I refer to listed data from 22 bais yaakovs, for a 10 year period. Has anyone done a chart like to track boys? If that were done, I’m pretty sure the soloution would present itself. And the “crisis” would be much less ominous.
Putting everyone on a level playing field would also solve much of the problems. But as long as you have 3rd (and 4th)parties running the show, there will always be those who are taken advange of
Dr. Pepper
Member
2 points if you figure it out on your own.
Actually, let’s make it 5 points since it’s kind of wacky.
You looked at OnlySimchas – big deal 🙂
AZ –
There is no doubt that we have a problem; even if its only 2% girls that are struggling. Its just not as bleak as it seems, once you look at the data.
And yes, I do believe I made a very concrete suggestion to bridge the gap for singles 22-25. Let them start taking control of their own destiny, instead of being run around by the system. They do this for their carrear, so I see no reason why dating should be any different.
Back to the numbers, the chart that I saw showed data for girls schools only. Some schools have a much better rate than 13%, so some schools are doing a great job, while others need to rethink their approach. In fact, the school that had a 22% single rate should be meeting with the school that had an under 10% rate to see what they could learn from them. Clearly, someone’s approach is working, while the others are not.
Is the reprint going to show data for 22 boys schools in the same demographic areas? For the same timeline? That would be a real eye-opener.
An old thread? Or you actually know me?
Squeak, did you look for me on onlysimchas?
Dr Pepper did you do the math? I said I met my husband in college (most people start in september), knew him for 9 months before we started dating, dated for 1.5 years and got married 9 months later. Did you assume August then with a September start? If so, I’m impressed LOL.
If you do know me, are you related to the Peppers that made my sister’s shidduch?
Vidi.
Solution – if all the chairs in the room get taken, then the remaining participants move into the next room. There they find other chairs (perhaps not the ones that they first would have considered, but solid & sturdy ones nonetheless), would that help all the participants win the game?
for those who dont understand mr squeaks cryptic comment:
“Veni, vidi, vici”
i came, i saw, i conquered
“their numbers would perhpas get better and a different schools numbers would get worse”
Not necessarily so. There ARE enough boys on the planet for each and every girl (unless you don’t believe in hashgacha protis, and if so, the conversation ends right here.)
That of course cannot be the case, so its just a question of finding / matching the “overlooked gems” that are oout there. Do the “hard cases” (older, less glamorous, less than perfect dress size, not enought money / yichus) require more work? Of course they do. Will shadchanim work as hard as the single will work for themselves? Not so sure. So the best soloution for those facing an uphill battle is to do the work themselves.
But I’d still love to see the data on the boys.
As lakewood fellow said, there are plenty of chairs, just not in the room you’ve locked yourself into. Think out of the box and soloutions will present themselves
Doc, Pepper is your real last name?
Maybe he IS the Pepper that made the shidduch?
No, he is too young. But his parents may have. The question is – do his parents live in Monsey and did they recently recieve flowers for their shidduch who celebrated their 10 year anniversary?
AZ – you came here looking for solutions, which I’m trying to offer. By focusing only on BMG, you’ve overlooked the solution that I’ve proposed.
Yes, there’s very few boys that remain single in BMG after 7 years.
But…… that’s my point!!!
A girl enters shidduchim only looking for a certain type of boy. As she starts getting older, there are very few of that type boys that remain for her to date.
Thus, as she gets older – she has to broaden her search. That means, now she must start looking for boys who perhaps she wouldn’t have considered earlier in her shidduch search. This may include a boy from a different Yeshiva, a working boy, a divorcee, an almon, a Baal T’sheva, etc., etc. She’s not sacrificing on the important things like middos, etc. She is just looking at ideas that she would have never considered before.
You have reffered to them as “second tier chairs” – which in my humble opinion – is cruel. I’d rather use the term alternative chairs. And, as I wrote – sturdy & solid chairs, just different from the ones that you saw in the first room.
Speak to those who deal with older singles. They focus on different ideas for older singles. They work to come up with shidduchim for older singles that are on target, but ones that the single may have never considered when they began dating.
Those who have made shidduchim for older singles will confirm what I’ve wrote. I assume you haven’t & therefore you may not be able to appreciate what I’ve written.
I gave you a solution.. a few times. You just seem bent on focusing on the problem.
And there is a VAST world beyond BMG. The system would have us believe otherwise, but it aint so. Like I said, break out of the box, and you’re halfway home. And bli neder, this is the last post I make on the age gap topic. You see the problem, I see the soloution. But I will add this: since whoever put the list of 22 schools together does know who the “under 10%” rate is, THAT should be made public, becuase for whatever reason, their grads ARE getting married. Perhaps not pulling from the BMG pool, but fact is, they are going down the aisle. And hooray for the mechanchim / mechanchos who are at the helm of those ships.. they are doing their job!
And don’t say, “if one wins, its at the expense of another single. If the 20% single rate school knew what the under 10% school knew, THEY WOULD FIND THEIR BASHERT because he is out there. HASHEM GUARRANTEES THAT, so its not me who has a problem with your theory
The only cruel game is the one AZ is playing.
AZ – you obviously haven’t spoken to shadchonim who focus on older singles. They aren’t saying that there’s a lack of boys for the older girls to marry. Rather – they say that the older girls need to look for alternative ideas.
After you’ve done your research – by speaking to those who deal with older singles (as I’ve done) – get back to me.
AZ – “denying the premise doesn’t serve as a solution to it.”
As they say; if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
Hmmm. What is the real purpose of this thread? Mod 80?
the real purpose of this thread is to let AZ state and defend his agenda, ignoring any other possible suggestions or solutions, so that he doesnt hijack every other potential thread on shiduchim
AZ – “denying the premise doesn’t serve as a solution to it.”
As they say; if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
When I read the “data” on the still single graduates it seemed that all the smaller schools had higher percentages of singles while the larger schools had smaller percentages. I wonder if people are simpmy stereotyping girls because of the schools they attended the way somepone not in BMG “must not be a good bachur”.
AZ – I agree that the focus of this thread is to prevent the game from continuing.
However, I’d like you to agree as well that there are alternative chairs for the participants to sit on if they haven’t found their chair in the first round. If you agree to that point, then it would be unfair to state that girls will remain single.
You yourself wrote – a individual girl definately has some options, and she can do herself a lot of good by being open to things she may have not previously considered.
So, you agree that the lack of chairs in only in the first round.
That being the case – it’s quite hard to say that there’s a lack of chairs on the whole. It really depends on what round of the game you are talking about & what chairs you are willing to consider….
SJSinNYC-
So much to write- so little time to write it.
That math equation was too straight forward (and only worth 2 points). Also there was no way to pinpoint Aug 22nd.
I don’t know who you are, I picked up the information from a conversation I overheard when a neighbor came to bring her kids over and stayed to schmooze. (She is friends with either your sister or sister-in-law, and she mentioned something about you and your husband being engineers, having met at Polytech.) I knew it was a long shot but I decided to post it anyway.
My parents don’t live in Monsey and my fathers brother moved out about 4 years ago. His sisters still live there but they took on their husbands last name when they got married. (I’m also not aware of any shidduchim my parents made.)
Other relatives who came over at different times took on different spellings of the name- Pfeffer, Feiffer… Are they Kohanim? (If they’re not Kohanim they’re not related.)
Gotta go now and I’m going to be really busy today so don’t hold your breath waiting for a response.
Wow, the Jewish world is small LOL.
So your wife is friend’s with my sister’s friend? Or was my sister the one at your house? How did we come up in conversation?
Good sleuthing! Incidentally, my brother in law also went to Polytech with us 🙂
I think it started when one of them commented that the kids look like they want to be engineers when they grow up by the way they were building. Then the conversation led to “an engineering couple” she knows who met at Polytech, where he is a civil engineer and she works for Con Ed.
When my wife mentioned that she is due on Aug 22nd she said “That’s funny- that’s their anniversary”.
LOL That’s a hysterical story. But my husband is a mechanical engineer (as am I) 🙂
Now I have to go figure out who that is. Do they live in Raintree?
Dr. Pepper-
I am curious. When you make a l’chaim, do you use soda instead of schnapps?
SJSinNYC-
That’s what threw me off at first. I also thought you were an electrical engineer.
Anyway, I have to prepare a speech for tomorrow, my wife will have my head if I get up and rant on how the age gap is causing global warming (although AZ will be proud).
Helpful- Feel free to swing by tomorrow and find out first hand.
While I’m all for a l’chaim now and then, soda is not enough of an incentive. If the Kentucky Uncles and cousins are making an appearance, please drop me a line!
Back to shidduchim, while I like the analogy of musical chairs, it struck me this morning (yes, during shacris, sorry to admit, I know, I know, I need to work on that) that some readers may have taken offense to the idea that we refer to this serious business as a “game” So rather than think of this as the musical chairs game we played in kindergarden, I think a more appropriate comparison would be visiting a chair showroom.
You need to find one that fits your budget, your taste and most inportant, your needs. The finest chair is of little value to you, if it does not fit your lifestyle. And just like we don’t allow a salesperson to talk us into choosing something that we don’t feel right about, if they cannot show you what you have in mind, there are other stores to shop at.
And like all shopping experinces, you can drive yourself nuts by endlessly looking, or you can determine your needs before heading out and zero in on whats right for you.
Singles! Take it from us married folks.. you can do this! Don’t allow the fear factor to damper your attiude. We did it, and so can you. B’hatzlocha, and b’korov, mamash!
Since we’re reprising/rehashing -l’toeles harabim, of course – I’ll so a brief best of myself and then ask a question.
First, Midwest2, good that you (and others) have brought up other factors. Let’s say that the age gap is the major issue. It’s a significant chunk of the pie to the shidduch crisis, let’s say a 40% factor. There is still 60% of other factors to consider and work on with as much energy and passion, IMO. There’s the chanoch l’naar issue, there’s the support issue, there’s all the other mishegos, there’s a lot to work with but since AZ is making the rules, I guess we can’t discuss it here. But we ignore it at our peril.
Now for the question. Say there’s a 23/24 y.o. guy and you know a girl for him who is simply perfect, absolutely what he needs and is looking for but she’s 3 or more years younger. Do we not suggest the shidduch? Ask the boy to wait till she’s 22? Does the rosh yeshiva decline to be mesader kiddushin, because if we’re not working on the solution we’re part of the problem? Should we feel guilty? I just know of a few great shidduchim wherein the girls are younger, and not within AZ’s guidelines to heal the demographics crisis.
No demographics crisis. Just a lack of clarity on what type of chairs are being sought. Perhaps more of an identity crisis.
I think a more accurate description is The Dating Game or perhaps Charades, not musical cairs.
“1. support, “mishegos” etc. have a minimal if any impact on TOTAL number of shidduchim/participants who land chairs, simply who gets the chairs, same for a apushatayid’s comment.”
Really? Tell it to all those who have been relegated to the sidelines as spectators because their fathers couldnt pony up the cash or didnt go along with the latest “mishegos”. Pull these specatators off the sidelines and add them to the pool of available players and lets see what happens to our “crisis”. I am willing to bet that a good majority of those single girls in the recently published data are girls who were denied player status due to money or some other “mishegos”.
“2. However, this isn’t the thread where i’ll debate those points. If you have ideas for easing the numbers which you readily admit is a chunk of the problem we are all ears.”
All ears? Increase the number of players by easing or forgoing the entrance fee (demanding support and adherence to the latest mishegos) and you are well on your way.
“3. I don’t think any poster mentioned anywhere that it is “forbidden” to suggest a shidduch that isn’t close in age. The discussion is simply how to facilitate that far far more such shidduchim take place. Either by increasing chairs or decreasing participants”
Nobody has forbidden a shidduch except for you. You are advocating NOT redding shidduchim where boy is year or two older than girls! everyone else is advocating redding shidduchim that make sense, no matter what the age.
“4. and of course if you think/believe/have evidence of other contributing factors to the problem. BY ALL MEANS get to work and alleviate them. For whatever it counts I’ll be your biggest fan.”
The biggest problem is that people have invented a problem! Until people get over this infatuation with “age gap” we will always have a problem.
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