Music that's supposedly a capella

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  • #608939
    allSTARyeshivish
    Participant

    i think its crazy that all the new aka pella albums by many different artists are aka pella. they are not! they are mamash music! it sounds excatly like music. why can people take a break from music and only listen to real aka pella without any background music… i mean voices. just for one month of sefira!

    #946519
    haifagirl
    Participant

    AARGH!

    aka = also known as – used when listing someone’s alias(es).

    Example: Joseph, aka [insert all of Joseph’s other names here]

    aka pella – also known as wonder?

    a capella = in the style of the chapel – vocal music (yes, singing is music) without instrumental accompaniment

    supposiveley? What’s (note the apostrophe) that? The word you are looking for is supposedly.

    #946520

    yes one of the A.K.A Pella albums, the one with a lizard on a green background has a song called Eitz Chayim. Its literally got background music!

    #946521
    just my hapence
    Participant

    If you want to do it properly then it’s no music whatsoever, acapella or otherwise. Just voices singing is no better than just voices going ‘wa-wa’, making guitar noises and beat-boxing. Believe me, sefira and the 3 weeks are pretty much the hardest times of the year for me as I eat, drink and breathe music but I get through them without any music because that’s what you gotta do.

    #946522
    Chortkov
    Participant

    Which Acapella sounds like real music? I have 35 Albulms of Acapella on my computer, and not one of them sound like real music. (Maybe maybe A.K.A Pella, and even that is not the same as the real stuff)

    Don’t know what your talking about. Either we have different gedarim on music, or we listen to different acapella!

    #946523
    just my hapence
    Participant

    Oh yeah, and the word is “supposedly”. Just so next time you try to sound condescending you do it correctly.

    #946524
    Chortkov
    Participant

    Haifa girl – You are right that he should have referred to the style as a capella, but there is a group which produced a few albums of acapella music, and they call themselves “A.K.A Pella”. So “aka pella” isn’t such a bad mistake to make.

    #946525
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I think you are all being motzi a bit of laaz. They claim it is all made with their mouths.

    You can say it sounds so much like music that you don’t like to listen to it, but you should not claim that it is really music.

    #946526
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Pba, some (most? all?) poskim hold that it has a din of music.

    #946527
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    (The pun was not intended, but it works.)

    #946528
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Pba, some (most? all?) poskim hold that it has a din of music.

    Perhaps they do; I don’t know.

    And you can say that. But to say that it “is music” which will be understood in ordinary meaning–is false and being motzi laaz.

    #946529
    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: As far as I know only the Shevet HaLeivi and R’ Shternbuch hold that. R’ Moshe and the Tzitz Eliezer were Mechalek (but they held it was Assur anyway for a different reason).

    #946530
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    i think its crazy that all the new aka pella albums by many different artists are aka pella. they are not! they are mamash music! it sounds excatly like music. why can people take a break from music and only listen to real aka pella without any background music… i mean voices. just for one month of sefira!

    Let me get this straight… you have a problem with people listening to a capella music during sefira, but you have no problem denigrating people by calling them “mamish chazerim” for enjoying a slice of pizza when it’s 100% permitted?

    Pizza on Motzeh Yom Tov

    The Wolf

    #946531
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Ask your LOR regarding A Capella music.

    I agree with PBA, that it’s motzi laaz to say it has “real music” unless you know for sure that it is.

    Perhaps as a way to be dan liKaf Zechus, it should be understood that music can be dramatically changed from initial recording to output. If you compare older concerts to the studio recordings of the same song, you can hear a remarkable difference between them, and that’s with instruments.

    So just because it sounds “music-like” does not mean that they cheated and used real instruments. Given the above, I would think it’s certainly computer manipulation.

    #946532
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Let me get this straight… you have a problem with people listening to a capella music during sefira, but you have no problem denigrating people by calling them “mamish chazerim” for enjoying a slice of pizza when it’s 100% permitted?

    That wasn’t during sefirah.

    #946533
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    That wasn’t during sefirah.

    I don’t see what that has to do with my point.

    The Wolf

    #946534
    just my hapence
    Participant

    PBA – since when is Motzei Pesach not during sefira?

    #946535
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I don’t see what that has to do with my point.

    It doesn’t really. I was being silly. I agree with your point and was impressed enough to make a silly response.

    #946536
    oomis
    Participant

    I am not reading all these posts yet, but wanted to express my two cents’ worth anyway. If an issur is on a specific thing, i.e. INSTRUMENTAL non-natural LIVE music made via a horn, or piano, or guitar, etc. then it would seem to me that there is no such issur on the human voice. Are we not permitted to listen to birds singing, either during sefirah? I have ehard flutes played that sounded like singing birds, so if a human voice can sound like a musical instrument does that make the natural human voice assur at this time? What is the exact nature of the issur according to those who paskened it to be assur, the origin of the musical sound or the hanoaah we get from hearing it? If the issur is solely on the live musical instrument and not on one’s voice, then “a capella” singing is not and should not be thought to be assur. If it is the ENJOYMENT of the sound and not its origin that is the issue, then ANY pleasant and enjoyable sound should be assur, if you want to get really technical about it. How far are we suppsoed to take this?

    #946537
    cherrybim
    Participant

    We cannot forbid something which chazal and the shulchan aruch permitted, such as, acapella during s’firah. Reb Moshe’s heter for music during the rest of the year may even apply during s’fira, using the same reasoning. If you need to feel uncomfortable during s’firah, try sleeping on a bed of nails.

    #946538
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam2, I am referring to digitally altered recordings having the din of instruments, not to considering any playback of a recording of the human voice to be an instrument, which is indeed a minority opinion.

    #946539
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    I suffer from music starvation during sefirah. Musiclike music helps.

    #946540
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Cherrybim, where can I find R’ Moshe’s heter?

    #946541
    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: The Shevet HaLeivi’s Shittah is that anything made to sound good inherently counts as not a capella.

    Rav Moshe’s music T’shuvah is OC 1:167, I believe. But he does say in there that Sefira is Assur even a capella, though the Minhag to me Meikel on a capella kinda makes sense based on him (emphasis on the kinda).

    #946542
    pilot1
    Member

    listening to those cds is like talking lushen hora without names! and its a way showing our kids that there is an easy way around every halacha.

    #946544
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DY: The Shevet HaLeivi’s Shittah is that anything made to sound good inherently counts as not a capella.

    That’s not what I’m referring to; I’m referring to something I heard from R’ Belsky, that when vocals are digitally manipulated so that they no longer sound like something which can be produced by a person, they are no longer considered vocals, it’s considered instrumental.

    I think I saw it on the ‘net at one point as well.

    #946545
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #946546
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    If the end result is the exact sound sound of an instrument then it is the same thing. Reb Moshe talks about singing not about instrumental music produced by other means.

    #946547
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The relevant sentence from an article published on a different site:

    If the tonal balance is changed beyond the capabilities of what a human can do, then the music can no longer be considered human sounds, but rather computer-made sounds, and would be prohibited during Sefirah and The Three Weeks.

    #946548
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I think people are applying the Kashrus mentality to music.

    Actually, Rav Belsky objects to it on those grounds as well:

    #946550
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam2, you probably mean 166, where he assers. Cherrybim has claimed before that R’ Moshe was mattir, although in that teshuvah he clearly assers (but not vocal – that he seems to be mattir) .

    #946551
    cherrybim
    Participant

    “Cherrybim has claimed before that R’ Moshe was mattir’

    I didn’t say Rav Moshe was matir. Rav Moshe holds that listening to music, outside of a mitzvah event, is forbidden all the time due to availus for the bais ha’mikdash. I indicated that Rav Moshe’s reason to permit music the rest of the year to people who need it for psychological reasons, such as, to calm their nerves, could perhaps also be applied to those who need it during s’firah for psychological reasons.

    #946552

    Rav Belsky’s teshuva on a capella is very detailed and can easily be found on several online sites.

    Google “Rav Belsky music sefira”.

    #946553
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    R’ Belsky’s teshuva was posted in the CR already:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/sefira-music/page/2#post-86593

    Q: A cappella albums – singing without instrumental accompaniment – are becoming more and more common, especially during The Three Weeks and Sefirah when we are noheig not to listen to music. Is it halachically permissible to listen to a cappella music during these times of the year?

    A Cappella

    There are basically three types of a cappella.

    One is where the musical sounds originate from human voices but the natural properties are digitally modified with computer software to attain quality of sounds that are not humanly possible, thus making it sound more like regular music. Such a cappella is halachically not viewed as being any different from regular music.

    There are other forms of a cappella which sound very similar to regular music, although no digital modification is done to the voices. These types of a cappella should also not be listened to during Sefirah and The Three Weeks, as will be explained shortly.

    The third type of a cappella is where regular songs are sung by an individual or choir. There is nothing halachically objectionable about listening to such a cappella during Sefirah and The Three Weeks.

    To properly understand this topic, it would be helpful to briefly relate some technical information provided by experts in the music industry as to how a cappella music is created.

    Digitally Modified A Cappella

    Every sound is made up of many different sound waves, each at there own frequency. The individual frequencies and the velocity of each sound wave give each sound its unique tonal properties.

    A second modification made is to the pitch of the notes. A bass guitar can play notes almost twice as low (two octaves lower) as a human voice can go. Therefore, in order to simulate the bass notes, some album producers lower the pitch of the notes beyond the capabilities of the human voice. This process of transposing the notes down an octave or more would also change the status of these notes from vocals to computer-generated sounds, and would be prohibited during Sefirah and The Three Weeks.

    A third modification made is to the timing of the notes. The rhythmic structure of all music can be charted on a grid. The most common breakdown would be charted in eights. That means that each rhythmic hit would take place at exactly one interval of eights. It is not humanly possible for a musician to play 100% on the grid. This slight imperfection is what gives live music its human feel, as opposed to machine music which sounds much more rigid. It is even harder for a person to create a rhythm with his mouth, and keep it perfectly on grid. Many albums take the rhythmic parts and digitally place them exactly where they belong on the grid. This process is called quantization. Though this does not change the sound of the voice, when used in combination with any of the above processes it would give the sounds more of a status of music.

    Unmodified A Cappella

    If so, where does the entire issue of not listening to live or recorded music during Sefirah and The Three Weeks come from?

    It appears that although there was no specific minhag not to listen to music, there was a minhag to abstain from things that bring about an excessive amount of enjoyment. Furthermore, technically, due to the churban Beis Hamikdosh, music should be forbidden all year round. However, there are certain kulos which we rely upon. It is during Sefirah and The Three Weeks that we have accepted upon ourselves not to rely on these kulos and practice aveilus in this regard. Music has this power more than most things that people do for enjoyment. Music can take someone out of this world, so to speak, and make him forget, at least temporarily, all his worries and problems. Thus, whether the music is live or recorded, it produces this effect, which is contrary to the minhag. A cappella that sounds very similar to music is also included in this minhag and should not be listened to.

    Some rabbonim feel that once it sounds like music and is being played from an electronic device, that, too, renders it a musical device which is forbidden.

    Choirs

    A cappella music that was not modified at all, and sounds like a group of people singing, would be permissible.

    It is interesting to note that the word a cappella literally means, a – in the style of, capella – a chapel. In a chapel, they have only a choir singing with no musical instruments (other than a pipe organ which blends together very well with the voices). The harmony of the choir is meant to produce the musical affect. This is where the concept of a cappella stems from.

    #946554
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Cherrybim: Rav Moshe’s reason to permit music the rest of the year to people who need it for psychological reasons, such as, to calm their nerves

    And I again ask for a citation for this heter.

    #946555
    Wolfman
    Participant

    I’m curious. Has an Avel during shiva ever inquired of his LOR if he is permitted to listen to acapella music?

    #946556

    Wolfman I dont know about shiva, but yartzeit for sure.

    #946557
    cherrybim
    Participant

    O.C. 1-166; 2,-95; Y.D. 2-137

    #946558
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    I just briefly looked over the comments on this subject. On another thread, I have asserted taht the “issur for music’ during sefirah is a modern invention. Nothing in the original takonoh from the geonim -or even the rishonim- refers to music on sefirah- instrumental or vocal. I don’t see the purpose of making so many chumros.

    #946559
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ROB:

    You think you’re smarter than R’ Moshe.

    On that other thread, you were soundly refuted.

    #946560
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Daas Yochid- I am not smarter that R’Moshe. That is a stupid comment. My question is simple- as always- when did this “issur’ of music for sefirah start? We find nothing on this in the geonim or rishonim and only in recent years have we seen that. Why add another chumroh? nothing I have seen answered this question, whether on this thread or any other thread.Additonally, even the added issur of the late acharonim deal with LIVE music, not with tapes or CD.s. This has become a huge chumroh.

    #946561
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    O.C. 1-166; 2,-95; Y.D. 2-137

    All three of those deal with the issur of music. None of them mention anything about a heter to calm one’s nerves.

    Maybe it really is muttar; I don’t know, but you keep on saying that R’ Moshe says this heter, but haven’t been able to cite it.

    #946562
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ROB,

    Again, R’ Moshe clearly assers (and Sam2 had earlier sources as well).

    Unless you have sources to back up your claim, you are arguing on R’ Moshe, which is not a very good idea, and quite arrogant.

    #946563
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    daas yochid; you did not answer my question. Can you show me a daas hageonim or a rishon who mentions music as a matter of issur in the sefirah? And concerning R”Moshe zz;l,do you use liquid soap on shabbos? see what R’moshe says about this.

    #946564
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam already addressed your question. You didn’t address mine.

    What does liquid soap have to do with it?

    #946565
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    daasyochid: all sam2 said (in another thread) that the first mention of such an issur was (maybe) by the pri megodim ,who lived appx 200 years ago. And I accepted that the additional issur of LIVE music (concerts, simchas) may be acceptable. That alone is a big addition to the original takonoh. Now, you and others want to add ANY music to this takonoh- an exceptional chumrah that has no basis in the original takonoh.

    I venture that even R’moshe zz;l does not find a basis for this in the original takonoh. As far as liquid soap, it was an illustration that one does not have to be bound by R’Moshe’s chumros because he says that liquid soap on sabbos iis ossur.

    #946566
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    R’ Moshe himself seems to consider liquid soap a chumra, and many others, including the Aruch Hashulchan, were entirely mattir.

    Sam addressed your historical argument.

    Your attempt at dividing recorded music from live music is a sevara, contemplated and rejected by almost all poskim.

    #946567
    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: I believe the Beis Yosef says that to calm nerves is okay. Check him out in 560. In general, I think the assumption is that we are Meikil during Sefirah on those cases in which the earlier Poskim were Meikel all year round (I think the Shearim Metzuyanim Behalachah on the Kitzur mentions this but I don’t remember for sure). Also, I think the Nitei Gavriel quotes sources that there is a difference between recorded and live music, but I do agree that it is quite a minority opinion. (Then again, he also brings down the even more minority opinion that slow music, which would not inspire dancing, is Muttar Lechatchilah and he brings that down as the normative P’sak. Then again, he’s a Chassidish Posek. Maybe that is normative custom in Chassidic circles and I just don’t know about it; I should probably ask someone about that.)

    #946568
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam2, I’m not questioning the heter, it makes sense. I’ll bl”n check out the B”Y. Cherrybim keeps on quoting R’ Moshe on it, and not providing a source, and oddly, he now cited three teshuvos, none of which say this heter.

    As far as slow music, I actually questioned R’ Belsky on this, because he’s against fast acapella music because it brings simcha and is associated with “rikudim um’cholos”. So I figured, mah nafshach, if so, then slow music, even instrumental, should be okay (and someone whom I respect paskened this way). He didn’t agree, but didn’t really explain.

    #946569
    oomis
    Participant

    We spoke to a Rov about this, not as a shailah, but just to hear more about the inyan. I personally do not listen to music in the car during Sefirah, and am perfectly content with the news and talk show stations. The rov I spoke to said that if listening to music helps to keep a driver calm and therefore able to drive more safely than NOT listening to it, there can be a heter. I would not do it even with the heter, if I had someone else in my car and I knew they don’t listen to music (yeah, I know it’s MY car, I’m doing them a tovah to drive them around, etc. etc., but I wouldn’t want to make someone else uncomfortable).

    Bottom line – always ask your own Rov for guidance.

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