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BS”D
What are the sources for music from an unkosher source being dangerous to the neshomo?
Thanks.
And while we are on the topic (if A600KiloBear) does not mind) what is considered “an unkosher source”?
I am not trying to be argumentative, just curious as to what the forumites think.
There are definitely sources but even without its well known that music penetrates deep into the soul and non jewish music has the hashbois of a goy which is penetrating into your neshomah- enough?
There is a Gemoro in Chagiga (15a) that talks about Elisha Ben Avuyo (Acher) who was a great tzaddik but ended up going off. Though i cant find it there – the gemoro does say that the reason (or at leats one of them) he went off was because lo posak.. (cant remember middle words) mipumi. because he used to sing non jewish songs on a regular basis……… i hope this helps, i will continue to look into it and let you know exact details b”n.
yeah, he used to sing grrek songs while learning.
a song comes from the soul from an inspiration and penetrates the listeners soul. if it comes from a bad inspiration it will have a bad hoshpoah on your neshomo
well for sure I don’t learn guemarrah but I know or I have heard that all music is kosher the problem it is it’s lyrics that make it all wrong.
What music would be considered unkosher? Any music by a goy? Or just goyische religious music, or goyische-themed music? What about music by a Jew that doesn’t have any particular Jewish content? Just wondering.
in addition I agree with noitallmr regarding the music penetrating your soul i have seen it more then once unforunatly when boys or girls turn to non jewish music it has a very negetive influance on their behaviour
I have to add to Just-a-guy’s question. What about music that was goyish but then the lyrics were changed to make it “Jewish”? Since there are several “kosher” artists who do that, it apparently has someone’s haskamah. In which case, I would argue it has nothing to do with the music – the problem would be the lyrics.
On the other hand, what about Mattisyahu (and I would argue that what he does is not music)? He recorded with a xian rock group. Is that music kosher or un-kosher?
Every single Jewish performer today listened to and borrowed from goyish sources. There is no other way to study and perform music on a high level. So which way do we want it? Believing that all our inspirational modern day frum performers have damaged neshamas? Or realizing that music per se, that is, the musical notes, can be beautiful,enjoyable and even inspiring, even if they are from goyim? Are we ready to ban Beethoven? If someone is, he’s never really listened to it .
i wouldnt listen to beethoven
is that 4 a spiritual reason?
i wouldnt listen to beethoven
Ah, but would you ban it for everyone else?
I don’t like tomatoes and won’t eat them… but I’m not about to say that no one should.
The Wolf
and so this argument/thread comes back around…
chochmas odom- welcome to the CR! Thank you for contributing your valuables 🙂
goody: Spiritual health is the topic here.
true. but do u think beethovens music was from a bad inspiration? there isn’t ant words, how does it have a bad hashpoah?
No words? Beethoven’s 9th symphony has words. Fidelio has words (can you imagine an opera without words?). He also wrote several lieder.
Whether or not these pieces have a bad hashpoah is debatable. But they certainly have words!
And further . . . why are we picking on Beethoven?
Concerning “chochams odom’ and his note about ‘acher’. the gemoro is actually in chagigah 14B. The gemoro does say “zemer jevoni lo possak mipumeh” but if you look in rashi , it had little to do with the fact that it was a “zemer jevoni” but everything to do with the fact that it was after the churbon and music was not allowed. Intriguingly, rashi’s “girsa” (actual version) is “zemer jevoni lo possak MIBEISEI”-from his house ! which, of course, would explain rashi’s explanation of not having music after the churbon.
The gemoro-incidentally- continues and says that ‘acher’ had “sifre jevonim ” that he read during the bais hamedrash sessions and this is what took him off tradition. if my memory serves me right- the gemoro also says that he saw a man fall from the tree and die after having being “meka’im” the mizva of “shiluach hakan”, which goes counter the reward for tha mitzvah which is ‘arichus jomim” When he saw that the reward for the mitxvah was not effected (the man died on the spot) he rejected everything.
Thank you areivimzehlazeh.
On a personal note… I feel that non jewish music as a rule has a negetive affect on a person i have seen it on many occasions, one of the first things that a boy/girl does on their way to leaving the derech is listen to non jewish music thats a fact that i have noticed whilst dealing with these types of boys.
The reason i believe is not so much the actual music but the lyrics, they are so trashy its astounding!!! i mean have you ever listened to what they sing about?!? not only that the people singing them arent exactly the type of role modles youd like your kids to follow, it starts with listening to this type of music, then following the carrer of the artist, going to concerts, meeting people i would be seen dead with!! etc etc etc one thing leads to the next!!
As for beethhoven all you have to do is listen to the difference in style……….
because he put his heart into the song!!! all of his goyish taavois and feelings are now placed into the beats so no matter if the song was goyish and ther’s now jewish lyrics, the song now is still consider bad!!!! you realize the negativity when you tap your feet or sway your body in a non yiddish way.
chochmas odom: So what you’re saying is the music in and of itself is not bad. It’s only the lyrics. Or did I misinterpret “ believe [it] is not so much the actual music but the lyrics, they are so trashy [it’s] astounding!!”?
And as for Beethoven, the difference style between him and whom? Mozart? Chopin? Gershwin? And . . .? Could you please finish the thought?
yoyo: How does one tape his feet or sway in Yiddish vs. non-Yiddish way?
Sorry. Shoul have been TAP his feet.
Shoul have been should
ok. i wasnt following this whole thread but let me jsut say that imo i think that to take a goyish niggun and make it or try to make it jewish is oh so dead wrong . and u know what its not just hte lyrics, because when u hear a song that was “converted” u can tell right away. a friend of mines friend was singing a song to someone and shes like what did u just sing! and she started to sing the real goyish original. how horrible and how sad . i think that it is very spiritually damaging for pple to listen to goyish music or goyishe converted music. as mbd said that in gemara it says that one that listens to a a certain type of songs which im sure pple can guess without me writing it- they dont get their full olam haboh. i think its more worht it to live ure life a jew the corect way
chochmas odom–If the lyrics are the problem, then there is no need to say “as a rule”. It depends on the lyrics. Why ban all music (or literature, or anything else) because certain pieces of it are trash?
I would not allow certain current popular “music” into my home–specifically because of the lyrics.
However, Friedrich Schiller’s Ode to Joy (the choral part of Beethoven’s Ninth) is one of the has nothing objectionable to me, and the Ninth itself is one of the great works of mankind.
Ah, but would you ban it for everyone else?
I don’t like tomatoes and won’t eat them… but I’m not about to say that no one should.
The Wolf
i didnt say anything about banning. but since you asked. no, i wouldnt ban it for freethinkers
Thank you starwolf.
ROB another reason he died was he saw the tongue of chutzpis hameturgeman being dragged on the floor by a pig.
Yoyo wrote: “because he put his heart into the song!!! all of his goyish taavois and feelings are now placed into the beats so no matter if the song was goyish and ther’s now jewish lyrics, the song now is still consider bad!!!! you realize the negativity when you tap your feet or sway your body in a non yiddish way.”
How do you tap your feet or sway your body in a non yiddish way? My LOR says listening to classical music is fine as long as it is not religious music.
Didn’t Hashem create Beethoven and give him his abilities?
Didn’t Hashem create Beethoven and give him his abilities?
Hashem created everything. He created stalin and his abilities; and las vegas and nuclear bombs as well. thats not an argument.
Just-a-guy, good point.
Listen to the 9th or the 6th, the “Pastoral”, which is Beethoven’s paean to ‘nature’ – there’s little question in my mind that his talent for producing beautiful inspiring music is from Hashem. You could argue that Hashem gave him his musical ability solely to test Jews, but I’m not buying that; that’s a cop out answer. When I listen to Beethoven’s 9th, I believe I can just get a gist of what the Beis Hamikdash music must have been like. Maybe that’s why Hashem gave Beethoven that talent. Or Mozart. Or Brahms. or Dvorak. Or maybe even Jimi Hendrix, except he maybe badly misused his God-given talent?
Feivel- it is an argument. To put Beethoven’s music, stalin, nuclear bombs and las vegas all in the same category is not an argument. It is rather silly.
You could argue that Hashem gave him his musical ability solely to test Jews, but I’m not buying that; that’s a cop out answer
neither of us have ANY idea why the Boreh created beethoven.
but that “to test Jews” is a cop out answer!?
are you aware that it is an Ikar of Judaism that the entire purpose of EVERYTHING that is created is to test Jews so that they may exercise their Bechirah and earn Olam Ha Boh
just a guy
i didnt put anything in the same category except to show to anyone with a head on their shoulders that simply to state that Hashem created something is, a priori, a reason for it’s acceptance (as the previous poster suggested).
this clearly could best be expressed by giving clear and unambiguous counter examples. this is both a quite common and useful way to proceed in logical argumentation.
Feivel, another common and useful way to proceed in logical argumentation is when you say something like “i wouldn’t listen to Beethoven” you follow that up with a reason. You have not done so. I know that stalin, nuclear bombs, and las vegas are all to be avoided in one way or another. Beethoven is not so obvious to me, so I’m curious to know why you wouldn’t listen to Beethoven. You have yet to offer a reason.
Feivel wrote: but that “to test Jews” is a cop out answer!?
are you aware that it is an Ikar of Judaism that the entire purpose of EVERYTHING that is created is to test Jews so that they may exercise their Bechirah and earn Olam Ha Boh
Feivel, I agree that you are correct that the entire purpose of everything is to test Jews so that they may exercise their Bechirah and earn Olam Ha Boh. That doesn’t mean however, that avoid it, its bad, is the correct answer to every part of the test.
feivel –
It is worth having these threads every now and then just so that I can benefit from hearing your replies.
While I’m generally not a fan of the cut and paste, sometimes its useful. From Rabbi Ullman @ Ohr Somayoch-
From: Stephanie in RI
Dear Rabbi,
Dear Stephanie,
Music is considered by Judaism to be one of the seven classical, pure wisdoms. Music is therefore viewed as being very uplifting, and conducive to such higher states as Divine inspiration and prophecy. For these reasons, music was an instrumental part of the service in the Holy Temple in Jerusalem.
Of course, as with most things, music can be holy and pure, or it can be an expression of, and can engender, un-holiness and impurity. The music used by the Jewish prophets and mystics to attain inspiration, and the music played by the Levites in the Temple, was based on ancient, Divinely inspired nigunim (tunes). As a counterpoint, music has always accompanied the pursuit of idolatrous and immoral states of ecstasy as well. Even today, certain types of music specifically play on such base inclinations.
Most classical music, while not as spiritual as the ancient Jewish melodies, is nevertheless refined and elevating. It is usually pleasant to listen to, and often intends to convey majestic, subliminal impressions and ideas. Accordingly, while it would be generally preferable to listen to refined, uplifting Jewish music, listening to most types of classical music is also okay.
by the way i also enjoy listening to beethoven and other “classical” music, especially scarlatti and pachobel. the brilliance and mathematical complexity and harmony of much of beethovens works are far beyond my limited ability to appreciate.
i also love to read classical and science fiction novels.
as well as to sit and watch tv for hours at a time.
but i dont do any of those things anymore
Feivel- I’m still curious to know why you said you wouldn’t listen to Beethoven. Is it because you are too busy with family, profession, Torah study, you’ve lost interest? Forgive me if I’m being too personal.
just a guy
no youre not being too personal. you can surmise why i dont.
i dont wish to discuss it here and then respond to posts from people who dont understand the fundamentals and Mesorah of Judaism. it is highly frustrating, ive been through it before a few times. it is disturbing to my menuchas ha nefesh and doesnt accomplish anything.
thanks for your interest
Rabbi- thanks for your corrction. However i have learned that Gemoro a number of time and whilst i agree with you regarding what the Gemoro and rashi say I have always been led to believe by my magidi shiur that aside for the sifri yevonim that he had in his home the fact he was singing yevoni songs also had alot to do with the fact of him going off.
haifagirl – No im not saying that its only the lyrics, the music and beats are trashy as well, However,having said that i dont think this issue would be half as bad if the lyrics where at least “Normal” – (however you define normal – i think its a personal taste.) going back to the beats/music itself just look at what it does to the artist when he/she sings/dances to the beat be they jewish or not!! I sing at weddings etc from time to time, and i feel the difference when i get home! if its been an extra “frum” wedding (for want of a better term) i feel like ah geshmak its been uplifting coz the music speaks to your soul!! as for the more “modern” (again for want of a better term) i dont feel the same geshmack. also, during the wedding, as your singing, the reaction you have , the way you “move/dance” depends very much on the type of song your singing! if its more pop/rock style you find yourself bouncing around alot more…
chochmas odom: And do you find yourself “bouncing around a lot more” when you listen to Beethoven?
No, actually not i find classical music very relaxing as a matter of fact. and by the way i never said anything against classical music in fact, i wouldnt know who wrote what piece i just enjoy listening to ceratin peices though i prefer Yossele any day!!! oh and by the way i was once told by a Rov that i may listen to classical music.
My Rosh Hayeshiva ZT”L said it’s better to listen to classical music, or klezmer or chazzanus sung by mechallelei shabbos, than “amaleikishe” Jewish music of today. The difference- when they sang (or composed in the case of the classical composers) they were inspired. The ONLY exception he made was Wagner- not because he was a rasha, but because his music was written to inspire pagan thoughts. Music definitely has an effect. However, it’s not something to ban. My Rosh Hayeshiva used to use, as a moshol, the story of the conductor of an orchestra. the whole audience is enjoying the symphony, and the conductor is wincing because one of the 100+ pieces is slightly off. If you don’t hear something off, then it’s a good performance. Those who don’t hear anything wrong with wild Jewish music will be turned off by any attempt to ban it.
Jothar – In the past you described yourself as a big Lipa fanboy. How does that fit into this post?
Joseph, I also describe myself as Orthodox, yet I recite a whole litany of sins on yom kippur, many of which are relevant. I’m not on the madreiga of living up to my Rosh Hayeshiva’s words, and he wouldn’t tell someone who isn’t to live up to them. For those who are on this madreiga, I am jealous.
Jothar – Don’t get me wrong, I am just clarifying how the two points fit in. If I understand your last two comments correctly (and correct me if I am wrong), you are saying that true Lipa is part of what your Rosh Yeshiva ZT’L referred to as “amaleikishe” Jewish music of today – and it would be better to listen to classical music than that – but being you are not on that madreiga, you listen to such music anyways.
Second question is, if someone isn’t on such a madreiga, wouldn’t your Rosh Yeshiva prefer them to work their way towards that direction?
Further clarification- I would not call myself a Lipa “fanboy”. I like his music, but I’m not a diehard. furthermore, “fanboy” is a term used to describe obsessive, parents’-basement-dwelling fans following some sci-fi or fantasy genre show.
I used to listen to classical music and pretend to like it. Then someone pointed out my phoniness, and my Rosh Hayeshiva hated phoniness. You are correct, however. I do not reach my Rosh yeshiva’s standards, which is why he was Rosh Hayeshiva and I’m an Internet blog commenter. He would probably tell me not to be a blog commenter either (machlokes/krum hashkafa exposure/position distortion/etc), but it’s a tough habit to break. I would like to reach his level, however. If you reach for the stars, you don’t get your hands in the mud.
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