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I went to a BY show recently and was kind of expecting what id seen by all the school shows I’d been to in the past (which were lubavitch)
In the end, it was a very different experience, but one key difference intrigued me: the theme of schar kept coming up throughout the show.
It intrigues me because schar and onesh aren’t really a motivating factor in my life or Avodas Hashem – because it was not a key theme in the chinuch I received.
And thinking about it, I don’t think in today’s dark golus, it would motivate me enough to serve Hashem –
And by that I don’t mean to be frum – as that is the life I was raised in and find most comfortable etc. But I don’t think it would be enough to motivate me to leave my comfort zone and do things in not comfortable with – go the extra mile, and also make Hashem the priority and enjoyment of my life.
So I’m curious if this is a key factor and motivator for everyone here, and if so, how do you combat the instant gratification culture so prevalent today, in exchange for a far off intangible reward that doesn’t seem interesting (unless you are already “hooked” on Yiddishkeit, and if so, what hooked you?)
Schar and Onesh is spoken about in many classical Jewish sources. Of course it is not the ultimate level in Avodas Hashem but it can certainly be a useful tool to motivate people who otherwise would not. Fear of punishment is certainly a lower level than fear of sinning to God but if that is all that is holding a person from sinning it is certainly worthwhile.
Hashem put you here for a reason, and that’s to serve him by bringing light and blessings to the world.
When I’m feeling down, I remind myself (and it’s not always easy), that Hashem has a purpose for me being in and experiencing this moment… If I’m going somewhere where I may face challenges, I pray for Hashem to make my presence a blessing to the world -it keeps me going.
Throughout the Seforim HaKedoshim Klal Yisroel is admonished by Chachmei Yisroel regarding the various severe onshim we have for violating or not properly completing the various tasks that the RBSO demands of us. It is only in today’s messed up generation that the youth have demanded that the severe onshim not be mentioned too much.
@ChabadShlucha,
@Joseph,
Serving Hashem from fear of punishment or wanting to receive Schar, is not the ultimate level of Avodas Hashem, and far from it. As the Rambam says in Hilchos Teshuva, Perek 10:1
אל יאמר אדם הריני עושה מצות התורה ועוסק בחכמתה כדי שאקבל כל הברכות הכתובות בה או כדי שאזכה לחיי העולם הבא, ואפרוש מן העבירות שהזהירה תורה מהן כדי שאנצל מן הקללות הכתובות בתורה או כדי שלא אכרת מחיי העולם הבא. אין ראוי לעבוד את ה’ על הדרך הזה, שהעובד על דרך זה הוא עובד מיראה ואינה מעלת הנביאים ולא מעלת החכמים. ואין עובדים ה’ על דרך זה אלא עמי הארץ והנשים והקטנים שמחנכין אותן לעבוד מיראה עד שתרבה דעתן ויעבדו מאהבה:English Translation:
A person should not say: “I will fulfill the mitzvot of the Torah and occupy myself in its wisdom in order to receive all the blessings which are contained within it or in order to merit the life of the world to come.”“[Similarly,] I will separate myself from all the sins which the Torah warned against so that I will be saved from all the curses contained in the Torah or so that [my soul] will not be cut off from the life of the world to come.”
It is not fitting to serve God in this manner. A person whose service is motivated by these factors is considered one who serves out of fear. He is not on the level of the prophets or of the wise.
The only ones who serve, God in this manner are common people, women, and minors. They are trained to serve God out of fear until their knowledge increases and they serve out of love.
From here we see two important points.
1. Children do need to be educated in serving Hashem out of from and for Schar. This is what’s taught in virtually every frum school. That’s the way children can relate to serving Hashem. However,2. We must recognize that while we do get punished for transgressing Hashems will, and we do get rewarded for listening to Hashem, this is not the reason why we serve him. We must serve Hashem out of love, not fear or gaining reward.
Not a motivator for me at all.
CS, 1) Who said it needs only be said as a motivator? It’s the truth and the truth needs to be said out loud and clear. 2) Our gedolei yisroel for thousands of years admonished us as such, so clearly they felt it is the correct and appropriate mussar to give us.
I find that hard to believe…
absolutely 100% true for some people. Telling some people how much Hashem loves them just fosters the feeling that Hashem knows they mean well and accepts them for who they are, not always motivating change. For some people, knowing that the fires of gihenom await them for specific actions is enough to jolt them out of participating or going deeper into it, and refraining from the behaviors brings more clarity, thereby encouraging the person to stay away long term and grow further.
I’ve heard about it from speakers, seen it in others and experienced it myself. And if you read Dr. Twerski’s experiences with drug and alcohol addicts, he tells you that they have to hit rock bottom. They have to actually see the gihenom they have brought on themselves and their families because until you understand the severity of the consequence, you don’t have a strong enough opposing force to the pull of the addiction.
Joseph yelling at people is worthless, but legitamte Torah sources and Rabbanim teaching the firey consequences to certain behaviors and lifestyles is life changing. If not for you, then that’s you. Many people out there are not you.
There are two points to be made:
1) The concept of schar veoineash in the coming world by definition cannot be the ultimate motivator. It is basic human psychology that a long term pleasure (or the opposite) cannot truly overcome immediate gratification. Of course it can be a motivator, but not an ultimate one.2) the real motivator has to be one that gives immediate gratification, and that is the connection that one has now and every second with HKBH, and the more one cultivates it, the more pleasure one experiences through doing the mitzvohs etc.
It wold be of great use for the chinuch system to teach the Chovos Hatilmudim, and Hachsheres Ha’vreichim, which clearly exlplains the ins and out of this concept.
I think rav shais taub in last weeks Ami explains why we need both ahavas hashem but also yiras hashem
I do things for selfish reasons.
I didn’t say what you meant.
I meant that fear and punishment don’t motivate me.@Joseph,
I guess that Rambam Hilchos Teshuva I posted got ignored.SHY: Where do you see a stira?
Chabadshlucha, I am such a person. And on the contrary the many of the other motivations would move me. I agree with Joseph.
Sechel HaYahar, that Rambam is meant for ba’alei madreigah, and we are speaking of simple folk here.I meant many of the other motivations would not move me.
@mdd1,
“Sechel HaYahar, that Rambam is meant for ba’alei madreigah, and we are speaking of simple folk here.”Speak for yourself, but I think most people would take issue with being called an Am Haaretz, which is who the Rambam says such a view is for. Also, see Pirkei Avos 1:3:
אל תהיו כעבדים המשמשין את הרב על מנת לקבל פרס, אלא הוו כעבדים המשמשין את הרב שלא על מנת לקבל פרס, ויהי מורא שמים עליכם.
English Translation:
“Do not be as slaves, who serve their master for the sake of reward. Rather, be as slaves who serve their master not for the sake of reward. And the fear of Heaven should be upon you.”It’s evident from the above Maamar Chazal as well as the Rambam quoted above, that the Chachamim didn’t exactly encourage doing Mitzvos in order to receive Schar, or refrain from committing Aveiros because of fear of Gehinnom, which is why we use the term “Yiras Shomayim” not “Yiras Gehinnom”, because we’re not selfish people driven by rewards, rather, we want to do what Hashem wants, to fulfill his will, because that’s why he created us. We want to give Hashem Nachas Ruach, not earn mileage points on the Heavenly Express ™.
SHY: How do you explain the huge amount of Seforim HaKedoshim throughout the centuries in galus, from the Rishonim and Achronim, warning us of the dire punishments for various aveiras?
Seychal HaYashar, simple folk today are not on the spiritual level of Rambam’s am’aratzim. Yeridas ha’doros…
@Joseph,
Sure the punishments are out there, but is that why you shouldn’t do the aveiros? These “fire and brimstone” warnings, are usually reserved for people who are doing Aveiros, knowingly, because they couldn’t care about their relationship with the Aibershter, and aren’t really interested in what he wants.Tell me Joseph, if Gehinnom were to close down (due to “lack of interest”) would you still be a frum Yid? What if Schar also stopped? Why would you continue being frum?
A practical example:
Until 20 years we aren’t punished for our Aveiros, so why shouldn’t one do Aveiros until he or she turns 20?@mdd1,
I knew that was coming. Obviously you aren’t too well versed in Rambam to know what and who he calls an Am Haaretz. When I have some time I’ll quote a few.Seychal HaYashar, the 20 old statement is not to be taken literally.
I’ll tell I would not have become frum and progressed further if not for yiras ha’onesh.SHY, I didn’t mean his level of observance, but rather the level of his neshomah.
The years old statement is actually a big machlokos achronim, there are some that say that after twenty you do get an oinesh for what you did from thirteen.
We are all forgetting what Chazal say in פסחים דף נ’, לעולם יעסוק אדם בתורה ובמצות שלא לשמה, שמתוך שלא לשמה באה לשמהת the של”ה says that although it is actually an aveirah to learn שלא לשמה, it is impossible to achieve lshmah without first learning shlo l’shma.
This is all besides the point for there are two seperate discussions going on here, which for some reason is being jumbled together. The first point is What is the ultimate goal, and that is l’shma, not for schar. The second point is: How do we reach such a level, and that depends on the person. For some its schar, and for some it’s the oinesh.
It’s not only fear of punishment- it’s also fear of being labeled “a rashah” in Heaven.
Chabadshlucha, keeping away from issurim and doing all the obligatory mitsvos properly is already a really big thing. Your mashalim don’t help in situations where one has a serious yetzer hara to do something one is not supposed to do.
To go to higher levels the fear doesn’t help because one does not get punished or gets a roshah label for not going there.
1. Not all motivations are good. 2. Kedoshim tihyu just means not engaging in very big ta’avos.
Everyone is motivated by schar and onesh. If you think you aren’t it’s bc you don’t believe it. For example, if someone with a whip in his hand says if you do that aveira I will give you lashes you better believe that will be motivation. If someone tells you if you give maasur I’ll give you 100 times that back, of course you will be motivated by it.
Chabadshlucha, your pshat in kadesh es atzmecha is not the pshat of the Rishonim. It’s also dangerous as it places an obligation on every Yid to grow in levels of chassidus – it was not meant for everyone.
Your last paragraph I didn’t understand 100%.Chabadshlucha, I don’t disagree much with you. The Shulchan Aruch says one should do mutar things le’shem Shamaim, but if one doesn’t — his action is not praiseworthy (except for one activity, but it is not poshut).
Please, do bring the sources for the ”Kadesh es…”“Chabadshlucha, your pshat in kadesh es atzmecha is not the pshat of the Rishonim.”
“Please look up likutei sichos, chelek aleph, sicha beis (starting from ois vov), parshas Kedoshim for a full analysis.”
So the Rebbe made up his own pshat against the rishonim?
Chabadshlucha: 1.I am a Misnaged — i don’t have the Rebbe’s sichos standing on my shelf. So, could you, please, elaborate.
2.Sorry, but you misunderstood me. I meant shitas Ramban and Rabbeinu Bechaya who say that ”Kedoshim tehiyu…” means not going a lot after any permissible pleasure.Chabadshlucha, the key word is “a lot”. Eating a cone of ice cream for one’s own pleasure is not a bitul of “Kedoshim tihyu…”.
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