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“No — we’ve simply decided to take their say-so on the matter.”
IOW, you are posturing that they are or may be wrong in matters, but we nevertheless accept their wrongheadedness as law of the land. Am I more or less characterizing your position correctly?
“we have ruled, post facto, that the matters are as they say they are.”
Where is this ruling mentioned? How is it brought down?
Please check that out.
IOW, you are posturing that they are or may be wrong in matters, but we nevertheless accept their wrongheadedness as law of the land. Am I more or less characterizing your position correctly?
Isn’t that the basic concept of “Lo BaShamayim Hi?”
The Wolf
Just out of curiosity…
how can you accept the notion that individually members of Chazal are fallible, but collectively there are not. Logic dictates that that should not be possible since an error by any one of the group means that, by default, the group as a whole is not infallible.
The Wolf
Lo bashamayim hi – once the Torah was revealed, there will be no further revelation? What are you getting at? You are saying, in so many words, Chazal can be wrong in halacha. This is patently incorrect.
Where have I ever said individual members of Chazal aren’t infallible?
Lo bashamayim hi – once the Torah was revealed, there will be no further revelation? What are you getting at? You are saying, in so many words, Chazal can be wrong in halacha. This is patently incorrect.
In other words, HKBH could determine the halacha one way, but if Chazal decide otherwise, then we follow them. The famous case is the oven of Achnai.
Where have I ever said individual members of Chazal aren’t infallible?
Again, open up a Gemara. The fact that the Gemara says about any Amora’s position “Tiyuvta d’…” proves that that person was not infallible.
The Wolf
Chazal have only and 100% consistently decided halacha as per HKBH. Stating otherwise is the plainest definition of apikorsus.
Chazal have only and 100% consistently decided halacha as per HKBH.
Only inasmuch as HKBH Himself is maskim to the point of “Lo BaShamayim Hi.”
Otherwise, how do you explain the oven of Achnai?
The Wolf
YESSSSSS!!!!!
(answering the Q, mother’s day, yes or no)
When Chazal have a machlokis,ipso facto, someone is wrong.
not acording to the gemoroh in gittin. Elu ve’elu divrei Elokim chayim
Um, did anyone notice that the Mother’s Day discussion has become the Volvie/Wolf Hashkafa debate? Can we get this back on topic or close this thread? Maybe they want to start a new one to discuss this more?
Regarding Mother’s/Father’s Day: someone here said it best. If your parent is expecting a fuss to be made, then it’s your achrayis to do it! It doesn’t matter what you personally think about the day, it’s about your parent, today and everyday.
(btw, if you have a parent to give to, thank Hashem. Some of us can no longer do the Mother’s day thing 🙁 )
IOW, you are posturing
Minor nitpick (with no malice whatsoever): The word you’re looking for is “positing.” 🙂
The Wolf
It took you 7 hours and your making 5 previous posts since the comment in question to realize that!? Who was your English teacher again? (No malice intended… 🙂
Goody, there are some things that are mutually exclusive.
For example, R’ Hillel said in the gemara that Moshiach already came and will not be coming in the future(Sanhedrin 98b). But we don’t believe that. Its one of the 13 ikkrei emunah that Moshiach is coming in the future.
Either Moshiach came already and is done or he is coming in the future. How do you reconsile that?
It took you 7 hours and your making 5 previous posts since the comment in question to realize that!? Who was your English teacher again? (No malice intended… 🙂
Alas, when I first read your post, I skimmed over it, but I got the meaning. The error caught my eye when I was reviewing it several hours later.
The Wolf
If I want shalom bayis, I will remember Mother’s day as well as my wife’s birthday every year. Of course, they frequently fall in close proximity to one another, which does simplify matters for me….
Volvie,
Please get real. How many of us really do kibud av vaem daily? Celebrating a day for our mother’s and father’s is not diregarding the other daily mitzva we have but it let’s us realize the honor that we owe our parents.
goody613 – “not acording to the gemoroh in gittin. Elu ve’elu divrei Elokim chayim”
Obviously, that can’t apply to everything; Elu ve’elu is a process. If one member of chazal says a peice of meat is kosher but the p’sak din is like those who say it’s treif; are you going to eat it because they are both right, eilu v’eilu?
“The error caught my eye when I was reviewing it several hours later.”
B”H. I am pleased to learn that you are chazering (reviewing) my insights.
“How many of us really do kibud av vaem daily?”
outoftownjew –
Most of us. (At least those of us in-town. You seem to be implying most out-of-towners don’t have Kibud Av V’Eim daily, but I am not mekabel that loshon hora on my out-of-town brethren. I know the vast majority of them also have Kibud Av V’Eim daily.)
B”H. I am pleased to learn that you are chazering (reviewing) my insights.
Oh, it’s not just you. I usually go back and review things I write after the “heat of the moment” is gone.
BTW, I’m still waiting for your explanation of the oven of Achnai if you think Chazal can never “disagree” with HKBH on halachic matters.
The Wolf
Most of us. (At least those of us in-town. You seem to be implying most out-of-towners don’t have Kibud Av V’Eim daily
Alas, I’ll admit that, in this respect, you’re a better person than me.
It is highly impractical for me to visit my father daily. So, I call him once a week. When we do speak, we spend about three minutes on the phone — but that’s simply because he’s not a talk-on-the-phone type of person. Never was – probably never will be. If I called him daily, he’d probably go mad and would not appreciate it (and would probably wonder what is wrong).
My mother, on the hand, is a different story. While she lives much closer to me than my father and it’s fairly easy to “pop over,” my schedule really precludes me from doing so on a daily basis (most days I get home fairly late). I do, however, call her somewhat often and visit her at least once a week, if not more often.
The Wolf
“Chazal have only and 100% consistently decided halacha as per HKBH. Stating otherwise is the plainest definition of apikorsus.”
Rambam:
????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??????? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?? ?????????? ???? ?? ??????? ?????:
????? ???? ????? ??? ?’ ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??????? ?????? ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??”? ???? ???? ??? ?’ ???? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?????:
If I called him daily, he’d probably go mad and would not appreciate it
Then it sounds as if your Kibud Av’ V’Eim is being fulfilled by your not calling, per Dad’s wishes.
I have no clue how the words of the Rambam (mentioned in its original by mosheemes2) have any relevance to the long discussion about chazal being right or wrong in some instances.All the Rambam is saying is that we have to believe that HKBH speaks to us through his Nevi’im and that the Torah is G-d given, to its last letter. I have no idea how this impacts the present discussion.
Now -as per our discussion. I think that people have an erroneous understanding of halacha and what halacha means.
In truth, halacha has no direct connection with reality. This sounds strange but ALLOW ME TO EXPLAIN.
We have a halacha of “bittul be’rov”, something can be “absorbed’ by the majority of what surrounds it.
SO, when a piece of pork falls into a pot of kosher meat and is “bottul” (whether Mi’deoraissa with one in two or mi’derabbonon as less than one sixtieth) and you end up eating the WHOLE pot, you are NOT considered having eaten tereifa. because, once the halacha tells us that there is NO treifa meat there, HALACHICALLY that piece of pork turns into a kosher piece. There are some discussions about the pace of eating but the actual Psak is clear.
The halacha of “chatichah na’aseh neveilah” rests upon the same reasoning- in the opposite direction.
Hence, reality is not what directs halacha. It is the OPINION of the Poskim that make it halacha.
That is what the story of “tannur achnai” tells us. Halacha is what the chachomim tell us , regardless of what reality (and heaven clearly knows better) is.
This is also why we can say ‘ele ve’ele divrei elokim chaim”. Both sides of the Psak are -from a halachic point of view- real. We ultimately pasken like one but both are -from a chachomim point of view- correct.
All this, however, relates ONLY to halachic questions.When we have the words of gedolim that do NOT have any relationship to halacha-then, of course, they can be wrong, whether it is science or matters that do not deal with a halachic question.
I would be happy to hear comments on this analysis.
RoB,
The Rambam defines an Apikores and it looks nothing like what Volvie said its clearest definition was.
thank you for clarifying your posting! mosheemes2
ROB:
To get this totally off on a tangent (and I have no interest in the argument between wolf & volvie), there is an interesting Machlokes (IIRC) between the Achronim if eating something that is Batel is a bad thing (due to timtum Halev) or Good (due to one showing emunas chachamim that the item is now mutar). I believe the Lashon of the Shaarei Teshuva is one who does not eat it is “Karov La’Apikores”.
As a “side point”, Mothers day should be supported by those whom their mothers care about it, as if not, they will be Over the Mitzva of Kibbud Em.
“Mothers day should be supported by those whom their mothers care about it”
And Groundhog day should be supported by those whom their fathers care about it; and Earth day should be supported by those whom their mothers care about it; and Mardi Gras day should be supported by those whom their fathers or mothers care about it. Right? Because if not, they will be Over the Mitzva of Kibbud Av V’Em.
Just let’s remember that Groundhog day and Mother’s day has nothing to do with Judaism, the Torah, or our people. Sometimes you just gotta accommodate other people’s silliness in order to maintain friendly relations.
BTW, what the Shaarei Teshuva described fitting into as “Karov La’Apikores” doesn’t fit into the definition of the Rambam quoted by ME2. So perhaps I shall change the description of what ME2 questioned from “plainest definition” to “Karov La’Apikores”, and it shall fit in more aptly.
gavra at wrok- thanks for the insights ! I’d appreciate even more if you show me the source of the sahhrey tshuva. your “IIRC” is not something I understand. I presume it is Yoreh Deah- hilchos taa’aruvos.
Just let’s remember that Groundhog day and Mother’s day has nothing to do with Judaism, the Torah, or our people.
Neither does photography, but I’ve yet to find any posek who says it’s forbidden.
The Wolf
Off-topic:
Is it just me, or did half of this thread (as well as some others) suddenly disappear?
The Wolf
volvie – Is it permitted, according to your logic, to give your mother a gift on her birthday since the mitzva of kibud em mandates that every day should be special to you, not just her birthday?
It is a mitzvah of Kibud Em to give her a gift any day. No more or less on her birthday. (Erev Yom Tov though would be very appropriate and probably an extra mitzvah in itself.)
So volvie, what about Mother’s Day; shouldn’t it also be celebrated because of kibud em?
And Volvie, don’t you think a mother appreciates your gift on her birthday as this day is special to her?
what about Mother’s Day; shouldn’t it also be celebrated because of kibud em?
Of course – just as much as you celebrate it on Earth Day.
don’t you think a mother appreciates your gift on her birthday as this day is special to her?
As I said before, everyone has their silliness. If your mother expects a gift on her birthday, by all means accommodate her. If she expects a gift on Mardi Gras day, by all means accommodate her.
Mardi Gras
You are aware, I suppose, that Mardi Gras (unlike Mother’s Day) is a religious holiday. It’s the day before Ash Wednesday, which is the start of Lent.
The Wolf
Not being the expert of gentile holidays (thankfully), I wasn’t aware of that. Thanks. Change my comment from Mardi Gras day to Groundhog Day. (That isn’t pagan or religious, is it?)
Change my comment from Mardi Gras day to Groundhog Day. (That isn’t pagan or religious, is it?)
It is to the Church of the Eternal Groundhog. 🙂
The Wolf
Sounds pagan to me. 🙂
Yeah, I guess you’re right; mothers are just being silly when they enjoy good wishes on Mother’s Day. But if they have to be accommodated, we have no choice, sigh…
And do you think a mother or wife would feel a bit more special if you gave them flowers during the week without piggybacking on Yom Tov or Shabbos?
I guess you have to be lucky to have a wife or mother who doesn’t appreciate a gift on her birthday or Mother’s Day; it may save you some cash, but trust me, you get it all back.
Why do you limit yourself to one day a year, when our Torah HaKedosha gives us 365 days a year for this purpose? You are throwing out 364 possibilities a year.
“Piggybacking on Yom Tov or Shabbos”? I enthusiastically say yes. Spend all your cash on Mom and Wife these special days.
And we are back to…why do you limit teshuva to Yom Kippur? You are missing out on repentance 353 other days.
Unless Volvie uses a secular calendar 🙂
Who limits teshuva to Yom Kippur? If you do, that it most unfortunate.
Everyday is a day to do teshuva. One never knows if today is the last day of their life.
Maybe the next holiday Congress will institute is a “Do Not Steal Day”. This way the people of the country will have one day a year to show respect for the rule of law. It makes about as much sense as a “Mother’s Day.”
Who limits teshuva to Yom Kippur? If you do, that it most unfortunate.
And who truly limits their Kibbud Aim to Mother’s Day?
The Wolf
Volvie that’s precisely the point! No one limits teshuva to just Yom Kippur, but people *in general* focus more about teshuva on Yom Kippur than a random tuesday.
Same thing with mother’s day – you can honor your mother all year long and just focus a little better on Mother’s day. It takes nothing away from the rest of the year.
No volvie, give her something special, for her. The flowers should be l’kavode Shabbos or Yom Tov; it’s like giving your wife a vacuum cleaner for your anniversary…if you have to accommodate her.
Yom Kippur is assigned by the Torah. Kibud Av V’Eim is mandated by the Torah. “Mother’s Day” is assigned by some drunks in Congress, before heading to the bar or their next KKK meeting.
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