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Illogical:
There is no responsibility to respect, honor, listen to, or have anything to do with ones SIL.
“I disagree. A son has to listen to his parents first. A daughter has to listen first to her husband. Jewish Law 101”
Is So right really Mosherose? It is specific in the Torah in Breishis, that when a man marries he must leave his parents and cleave to his wife. That means he is now responsible first and foremost to his wife. He may not be disrespectful to his parents (or hers, either, for that matter), but his first loyalty is to his wife.
The MOST important thing in any marriage is the marriage itself and no one should allow ANYONE to interfere with it. So no man nor woman should allow either mother or father to interfere between husband and wife. That is rule number one!
A husband’s first priority is his wife not his mother. A wife’s first priority is her husband.
Having said that both the husband and the wife have the obligation of kibud av v’em to both sets of parents. And that should be done as a couple and not as a disjointed group. It is up to the husband to make his parents understand that his wife is his top priority and it is up to the wife to make her parents understand that her husband is her top priority. It is up to each spouse to make the other understand that their families are very important to them and that they want everyone to get along harmoniously.
IMHO, it is up to the mothers-in-law to lay the foundation of a secure and safe relationship. It may not always work, but they have the upper hand and therefore it is easier for them to lay the groundwork for a warm, loving and caring relationship with their in-law children. It does not happen overnight, it does take time to build up, but if you start off on the right footing it should give you the opportunity to head down the right path.
“Having said that both the husband and the wife have the obligation of kibud av v’em to both sets of parents.”
Very true. Though a wife is first halachicly obligated to her husbands needs and then her parents afterwards, while the husbands order of halachic obligations are first kibud av v’eim and then his wife.
TMB, not true, please bring halachic backup for your statement. A husband’s obligations are to his zivig! The missing part that completes him and makes him a whole person. If what you say is true, then EVERYONE’s obligations would first be to their own parents. But as OOMIS pointed out a husband is commanded to leave his parents home and cling to his wife.
There would be no Shalom Bayis in the world if a husband was obligated first to his parents and then to his wife!!!
not true
aries, You’ve said previously that since you are a woman you don’t know halachic sources, and therefore do not comment on it. So how do you – an admitted halachic neophyte — come around disputing a halachic fact I cited?
TMB, whoah!! Wasn’t that rude? Kindly post your halachic sources to back up your comment. Anyone who is as rude as you, cannot expect his comments to stand on its own merits.
FYI, I never said or as you misquoted “admitted” that I am a halachic neophyte, I, as most women are, am a halachic observer and you can quote me on that at any time!
aries, no it wasn’t. You argued against a halacha based upon your ignorance of it.
I posted a boatload of halachic sources, but it hasn’t gone up. Perhaps a MOD can repost or undelete it. But what I cited is halachic fact.
Only in YOUR opinion, and obviously the MODS did not agree with you or your conclusion or maybe……….YOUR ignorance. I’m done here.
Halacha: A husband’s obligation of Kibud Av V’Eim comes first before his obligation to his wife. A wife’s obligations to her husband comes first, before her obligation of Kibud Av V’Eim.
Source: Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah Siman 240:14, Pischei Teshuva Yoreh Deah 240:12, Shu”t Rav Akiva Eiger Siman 68, Shu”t Noda B’Yehuda Mahadura Tinyana Even HaEzer Siman 45 and Chazon Ish Even HaEzer Siman 47 Dibur Hamaschil HaTel
Mishna/Gemora in Kiddushin 29:
The gemara says married women, who cannot perform the mitzva of Kibud Av V’Eim due to a situation described by the gemara as, “ein sipeik be-yada la’asot mipenei she-reshut acheirim aleha” (literally, “she does not have the ability to perform because other people’s authority [namely, the husband] is upon her). According to the gemara, married women are legally exempted from kibbud av ve-eim since their primary obligations relate to their husband. A married woman has responsibilities toward her husband which take priority over her obligations to her parents. By marrying, she enters her husband’s ‘reshus’, (unlike a man, who does not change the identity of his reshus with marriage.)
Fortunately, my parents, my stepmother and my in-laws are wise enough to not put themselves first and potentially interfere with our marriage.
The Wolf
Again, please quote where it says that a husband’s priority is first his parents and then his wife! Don’t assume, it doesn’t say so in this posuk.
aries, Nowhere did I mention a pasuk. I mentioned the Shulchan Aruch, Gemorah, and a bunch of poskim.
EDITED
BS”D
TMB is 100% correct. The Husband’s parents go before the wife Halachicly (let us not sugar coat anything).
However, there are shibudim that a husband has to his spouse, that a parent does not have the right to interfere with (since that would be against the Torah, which then Kibbud Av V’em would not apply).
It is no coincidence that the prototypical case is “who goes first” for a glass of water. There are no shibuddim involved. If it was “who gets the water”, the wife would get it since he is Meshubad to feed her.
Besides, as Wolf points out, if a parent does interfere, the spouses will work on avoiding the conflict (or get a Rov to give them a Heter to completely avoid their parents for “Shalom Bayis”, which I heard has been done), including not picking up the phone & not visiting (both of which are not being “Over” Kibbud (IMHO)).
Sometimes I wonder how some people on this forum are married.
Lets also forget that Kibbud Av V’aim is not an absolute requirement. I don’t think that there is anyone on these boards who would say that if a father says to his son “divorce that woman” that he *must* listen to him — especially not without asking a rav first (indicating that he has some doubt as to whether or not KA’vA applies).
The Wolf
Sometimes I wonder how some people on this forum are married.
With Chupa and Kedushin. But its been many years already. Has it changed for the younger couples?
gavra_at_work – According to what I was told, the husband is Mechuyav to give his mother a drink first. (My husband asked our Rav how to go about that – if my mother-in-law is over for Shabbos – and he suggested that my husband take a bite of Challah and give me the rest of his piece and the same for Kiddush – he gives me the Becher.)
TMB, I hear the sources you quoted, but I also wonder if they refer to a specific action or area in which KA”V comes before one’s wife. I cannot fathom how that could be a blanket statement for EVERYTHING,e specially in view of the point Hashem made of commanding a man to leave his parents… v’chulu.
Wolf, maybe your question should be “happily married”, from the posts you are referring to, that would be the more appropriate question. Whether or not the poster AND more importantly the spouse of the poster considers themselves happily married.
MR: That is what I said too.
B”H for Shalom.
TMB:
Yes, now they are married by updating their facebook status. It’s a lot cheaper you know.
g_a_w, MR: It is not always possible to give your wife from your own becher/challah. I was advised that if I thought my parents/in laws would perceive a slight that I should cut my wife’s piece and then cut another to give to that parent and then give my wife the first piece that I had cut for her.
oomis: there is no such things as a blanket statement, every case is different and there will always be the exceptions to the rule.
Out of curiosity. Is Shalom Bayis a din d’oraysa or is it just an emtzaus that is necesary for the mitzvos of kidushin and pru u’rivu? Before you start hocking me with “v’seemach es ishto”, the chinuch only counts that mitzvah as referring to the fact that a man shouldn’t leave his house for the first year of marriage- but he brings at the end that for a dvar mitzvah (I assume such as kibud av) it is not considered being mevatel this mitzvah and he adds that some say it is even mutar lechatchilah.
Any Rav who is well versed in inyanei Shalom Bayis will never say that one has to honor parents before a spouse. However, having said that, as I have mentioned before, it is best that couples as a team honor both sets of parents together.
It is customary to serve parents (as they are also older) first at the table. However, my father and mother a”h always complained and told me to serve my husband first, while my husband insisted that I serve them first. When his parents were at my table or when I helped serve at their table I always served his parents first. Obviously I am not speaking about serving food. I am speaking about when there is an issue, the spouse comes first before the parents. However, if you work together as a couple to honor and respect both sets of parents you probably won’t have too many issues where this problem will arise.
It is customary to serve parents (as they are also older) first at the table. However, my father and mother a”h always complained and told me to serve my husband first, while my husband insisted that I serve them first.
We must have similar families.
Whenever we have my mother over for Shabbos and I make HaMotzi, my wife would always insist that I give to my mother first while my mother would insist that I give Eeees first. Both viewed the other as being more important in this respect.
The Wolf
Maybe another poster already said this, but here goes; Possibly one of the reasons knocking Mothers in Law (off Heimish, it’s “Moder-in-Lawz) in a slightly humorous way became popular is because up to about 150 Years ago people used to marry young and stay with the in-laws in close proximity. Thus it developed that the adult (MIL)took on an additional role as teacher and “Deyezooger”. Why the same thing (Negative image) didn’t stick on Fathers in Law is a puzzle. Possibly, because the majority were too busy with more serious business than telling the next person what to do.
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