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Avi
I’m not sure what you are saying.The OP said all morals are learnt from the Torah, without the Torah we woudn’t have morality (im paraphrasing “There is no action in the world that is inherently good or bad,”
I pointed out that from Rashi (though it is really a Gemara yoma 67, I ve learnt the Rashi more often so I think of it as Rashi) it seems * not like this From Rashi we see that even without the Torah we still would have an innate knowledge of right/wrong and would know stealing is wrong. (I expressed it as a question on the OP)
Thus the OP’s conviction that the ONLY WAY we know stealing is wrong is because the Torah tells us (paraphrasing that isnt exactly what the OP said) isnt true.I’m not sure what you are saying ” but that does not mean that there would be a law” Of course not. Though I dont see how that relates to this thread
Ubiquitin,
1. Law does not have to based on right and wrong. Hobbes postulated that the state was invented because people realized that a situation where everyone grabs from everyone else is grossly impractical. Utilitarians called for “the greatest good for the greatest number” but did not define what is good or who counts in the number. Thus, the Nazis ym”s justified the Holocaust. Bentham proposed comparing the pleasure and pain caused by the act. However, this could justify a poor person stealing from a rich person.
2. People do or refrain from doing many things even though there is no law on the subject. The old-fashioned terms are “just because” and “this is not done”. Just to give one example, there is no law in Israel requiring berit mila but 98% all Jewish males are circumcised.
Avi
” Law does not have to based on right and wrong”
Certainly not“People do or refrain from doing many things even though there is no law on the subject. ”
ObviouslyI dont understand, why you are addressing these comments to me. Are you arguing with me? agreeing?
Look at the mirror image by Emanuel Kant. How would you feel if done to you?
About a year ago after thinking about this paradox called the Euthyphro dilemma, I came to a satisfying solution. Firstly we’ll have to define ethics or morals. “Good and Bad” have two definitions, 1: usefulness; as in a ‘good’ car is up and running, looks nice, has ac… as apposed to a ‘bad’ car that is broken. 2: in a moral sense the difference between Good (pious) and Evil.
Our dilemma is obviously regarding the second definition between pious and evil.
I think the key over here is to realize that piousness and evilness do not exist as an independent objective reality, rather they are confined to a very specific equation. Namely, to the area of free will. That is why animals that do not have free will it cannot be called pious or evil.
As G-d has the ultimate free will He created good (and its flip side as a necessary by product, as is clearly stated in navi) and instructed us (Torah) on what choices we should make with our free will. At the same time he also instilled with us a moral compass which if unadulterated lines up to the rules of the Torah. (This may be a meaning in Hashem, the Torah and Yisrael are one and the same.)
Also we know the Torah is the blueprint for the world and therefore if we see in the world good behaviors in animals that G-d established, moral compasses would lead us understand that that is the choices Hashem would want us to choose.
These are deep concepts, but hopefully understandable if we will delve into them.Ubiquitin, what exactly is your contention? Are you saying that even without the Torah there would be a law against stealing? Probably. The question is how stealing would be defined. Is redistribution of wealth stealing? What about Robin Hood? For that matter, Jesse James was a folk hero because people thought that he was just taking money back from robbers (the banks).
Avi
what exactly is your contention?”
That the OP’s statement that “The reason why stealing is bad is because by stealing you are going against the will of Hashem. Not for any other perceived moral reason. ”
Is not so cut and dryto that end I pointed out several questions. One of them is from The Gemara that even without being commanded we would know not to steal. (sure hilchos geneiva would not look exactly as it does today, but that is completely irrelevant. Though upon further reflection this is the weakest question of the ones Ive posed. Because it would still be wrong becasue it went against the will of Hashem.. Hashem created our moral compass and yes even without being commanded we would know not to stel, but not because of som moraility that exists independent of the borei olam, rather becasue of the sense of morailty that the Borei olam created in us. )
“Are you saying that even without the Torah there would be a law against stealing?”
not a law per se, but that man would know it was wrong (this isnt my contention this is an explicit Gemara)“The question is how stealing would be defined”
Thats your question, it has no bearing on my pointSadly enough, do you think that there are no “frum” jews who are considered highly moral and ethical, who do not chat on their wives, taxes, beat their children and treat their employees exceptionally poorly? Do you think that there are no frum yidden that go out daily and cause tremendous chillul hashems?
Again, he cheated on his wives. Well, there are many places in this world where multiple partners are permitted (and in some cases, encouraged). They are only immoral because those are not your personal beliefs of our social mores. That doesn’t mean that those people don’t have ethics.
As For lying.. you have never lied? Do you consider yourself a moral person? Can you say with complete certainly that you have always treated employees with the respect they deserve? That you have never ever cheated anyone? That you’ve always paid your cleaning ladies, maids, landscapers, etc., fairly and never argued over pennies with them?
I don’t know what you do, or who you are obviously… but by your definition, no one in the world has morals. None of us are perfect. We all make mistakes. I consider myself a highly moral and ethical person. I stand up for what I believe in, and have thought my children to do the same. BUT, I’m not frum, so, does that mean that I, too, am an immoral person because I don’t have the same beliefs that you do?Respectfully, hardly any frum men actually cheat on their wives.
You wanna say that sometimes people don’t act tzniusdik, fine, but maybe 1 in three thousand have been accused of cheatingOh, and @opinionated-2 being accused of something and not getting caught at something are two very VERY different animals.
Ubiquitin, there would be a law against stealing but the details might well be different. in fact, there is a machloket if the obligation to establish a justice system means that they adopt al of Choshen Mishpat or that they can make whatever laws they want so long as they are consistent and non-discriminatory or if they must have a law on everything in CM but can change from our pesak (e.g. a shor tam pays one third). Just to give an example, according to Rav Chaim Soloveichik poskm stealing sleep or jumping a line is robbery. According to the Chafetz Chaim it is worse as it cannot be returned. However, to the best of my knowledge there is no secular law that criminalizes either.
Charlie, how do you define morals? If you define them according to Halacha cheating on his wives was not immoral. There is no prohibition for a Noahide to only have one wife or not to have girlfriends. In any case, I think that most people support Trump because they oppose what the Democrats are doing (although some might think that such a person is best suited to deal with America’s enemies). In fact, until Hillary Clinton declared war on freedom of religion (in the words of the Washington Post) conservative Xtians were going to stay home. That one foolish statement about people having to change their religious beliefs cost her the election.
Avi
” there would be a law against stealing but the details might well be different.”They certainly would be (and are) different.
The Baal Hoikurim explains, how can we love Hashem who is Aish Auchloh Aish that Hashem is the epitome of goodness which all want to emulate, get close to, and follow in His ways.
There seems to be a major mix up between morals and moral law.
Moral standarts are set by the society and as the society changes with time their moral standarts change too.
Therefore our religion sets us moral standarts which do not change.
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