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Hehehe…I usually have a complex opinion. That is, I can see different sides of the issue. I still don’t believe that purely based on a child’s say so we should involve the police.
That said, I want to light molesters on fire.
But as a community, with just a little bit of money, we could do so much.
1- Community wide investigation of why our rates are up, how is a molester born & breed? Speak to the ones in prison; most are repentant and will cooperate.
2-School liability – based on a number of guidelines. If you follow them, you have no liability. If you didn’t, you get your pants sued off. Anchor it in law. It will make schools cooperate afterward ( as opposed to the current situation, that they have a major incentive not to cooperate because of the endless liability, and therefore they just ship off the molester. Say, no, legally you are OK if you did your job beforehand – and clearly define what there job is – background checks, yichud rules, video cameras).
3- Prevention – a place for potential molesters to run to. therapy, medication, employment. True, aries, many will not take it. But some will. Some will ask themselves if sing sing is worth for a decade. Some will wonder what the hell is wrong with them.
Some are horrified at what they came close to doing. x400. That’s worth my while. If I can get 10 molesters off the streets of NYC – how many kids have I saved over decades?
4- Clear, acceptable Halachic guidelines of when you are allowed to go the police, signed off by the big league poskin, publicized in english to everyone. Explaining the mitzvah of taking action when action is warranted. A promise of confidentiality and community protection.
5- An independent task force that can take complaints, maintain a black list of educators (even if we don’t have enough to lock em up), and tasked with tormenting them until they mine in new zealand.
Price tag? Five million, max. That’s chump change – we could cut out fifty percent of cases. That’s the moq proposal.
And now you have an answer to our original question. People were silent because:
of being unsure of when they can report someone
of unsure of what the burden of proof was
unsure of destroying a community school
unsure of destroying an otherwise wonderful person & his innocent family
so they just quietly fired him. but that didn’t do the job.
Kerosene?
I think we could really deal with those problems. And this is why people weren’t evil for not reporting – merely, terribly wrong.
Moq, I can’t tell if your serious or your dreaming.
Rabbonim are standing on the issue of witnesses. THERE ARE NO WITNESSES. All the acts of molestation are done in private and not b’farheshia so how can there be two witnesses to each offense that a victim can bring to a beis din? Already a frum molester has protected himself and has given himself carte blanche according to halacha, also knowing that Rabbonim will not allow anyone to turn him over to the police. So getting two Rabbonim or more to come together and actually agree on this issue is not likely. Only one Rav at a time on their own will have the courage to name a molester a “RODEF” and attach all rules that apply.
The decision whether or not to “out” a molester should not be YOURS to make. That should be the decision solely left in the hands of the victim. If the victim is willing to publicize the event and keep everyone safe from the monster then there should be no other collusion in regard to the privacy of the accused. On the other hand, MOLESTERS who turn themselves in should have their identities held private for having the courage to own up and seek help.
Every school has an Insurance rider to protect themselves against sexual abuse and molestation. So I am not sure where you are going with this.
As far as an independent panel is concerned, that is what the BJJ or Torah Mesorah was supposed to do, and the Agudah being the most respected and honored Jewish Organization that is basically worldwide should have done. They have the means and the know how to keep such a data base and to answer inquiries forwarded by educational or child related institutions.
The best punishment for them would be to be put into the general prison population. Molesters are considered scum even by the worst murderers. The would definitely get a punishment that fit their crimes, no doubt about that. But the punishment would also be considered cruel and unusual, even if extremely apt.
Perhaps the should be hung, drawn, and quartered. But not until after they are lynched. And given over to a mob for a good beating. And if they survive that they should perhaps be seated in one of the “Confession Chairs” used during the Inquisition. If a confession is not forthcoming forthwith, they should immediately be waterboarded until an admission is made. Then hung, drawn, and quartered.
Moq, I can’t tell if your serious or your dreaming.
>> What is wrong with both? Anger will make use acknowledge the problem, but optomism will let us think of a solution
Rabbonim are standing on the issue of witnesses. THERE ARE NO WITNESSES. All the acts of molestation are done in private and not b’farheshia so how can there be two witnesses to each offense that a victim can bring to a beis din? Already a frum molester has protected himself and has given himself carte blanche according to halacha, also knowing that Rabbonim will not allow anyone to turn him over to the police. So getting two Rabbonim or more to come together and actually agree on this issue is not likely. Only one Rav at a time on their own will have the courage to name a molester a “RODEF” and attach all rules that apply.
>> One Rav here. One Rav there. Then you have two. And they have friends. R’ Elyashiv already gave us the word Rodef, now it’s a question of connecting the dots. And the public outcry makes it safer for a Rav to go public – as loud as the outcry is not “against those Rabbonim”. Then they will hide. But if we look for a Halachic solution, in the Halachic framework, and instead of saying “we’re going to blow down all the doors, Rabbonim be damned” and say instead “Rebbe, we have people and resources and two Rabbonim have signed and said we can go public with ten signatures. These are the facts.” I think it’s possible. Has it happened till now? No. But I think it’s possible. And I think now it’s almost MO against yeshivish, because it’s been done in the name of blasting Rabbonim and that goes against everything Yeshiva people believe in and is making them circle the wagons. It doesn’t have to be use against them. We acknowledge we messed up till now, and start building consensus. it doesn’t mean the agudah. It means with Halacha.
The decision whether or not to “out” a molester should not be YOURS to make. That should be the decision solely left in the hands of the victim. If the victim is willing to publicize the event and keep everyone safe from the monster then there should be no other collusion in regard to the privacy of the accused.
>>Obviously, I’m talking when they ask us what the right thing to do. And we have a disagreement here. My answer would be to bring the child for a professional evaluation, and work from there (yes, I know a child shrink is an obligated reporter. I would make sure I knew of a reliable, qualified non alarmist child shrink). And if the shrink was unsure, I’d investigate – and part of the plan is to have resources to do that. And if you get the go ahead from the shrink, then call 911. Unfortunately, usually social workers need to work with their hands tied by the victims. A woman, married ten years, – does she want her husband to know what evil Mr. X did to her in 8th grade?
On the other hand, MOLESTERS who turn themselves in should have their identities held private for having the courage to own up and seek help.
>>Same page here. And we need to finance it, and advertise it subtlely. I believe this is the most important point here. Because many of them are horrified by themselves, and then the rationales kick in. I once was sitting in a room with someone I knew was a molester and a times was on the table about a recent arrest in NY (yes, that one). And I said “they should be shot and killed” – he looked me in the eye (he didn’t know I knew, long , sad story) and said “what if they are just sick and need help?”. I was too shocked to speak. So I didn’t.
Every school has an Insurance rider to protect themselves against sexual abuse and molestation. So I am not sure where you are going with this.
>>> Yeah, see what the community – rightfully so – does to your school. Besides for the civil consquences, you will have no enrollment left, and imagine if you put 40 years of your life into that school. Think of the nisayon.
If there is an acceptable standard of histadlus that schools could hide behind, to defend themselves from the furor, they’d be more willing to come forward and say ” yes, we hired. we put him through a background check. We had cameras in our classrooms. We profiled. We’re so sorry, and now we’re going to work with the DA’s office to make sure it never happens again”. Again, we need to think past right & wrong, and think ‘how can I get all the stake holders to cooperate?’ and put ourselves in their heads.
As far as an independent panel is concerned, that is what the BJJ or Torah Mesorah was supposed to do, and the Agudah being the most respected and honored Jewish Organization that is basically worldwide should have done. They have the means and the know how to keep such a data base and to answer inquiries forwarded by educational or child related institutions.
>> How did Rebbetzin David get into all of this? 😉 Unfortunately, if we are talking about people that we can’t convict, they can’t discriminate or keep a registry, because the’ll get nailed on libel. No official organization can keep track of the nail everybody knows of. It needs to be beneath the radar, like a frum wikileaks based in Norway. Like the get mob.
That guy recently in NY – he got busted on child endangerment. He’s not registered as an offender. Put up a sign that he is – nailed for libel.
VNishmartem-
If people believed that is was wrong to go to the police without witnesses , then they believed it was righ to protect this guy from the authorities, because he was a victim of an injustice. Now, that’s wrong. But I see what they believed. We have a long tradition of expelling moserim and protecting our own. It takes a lot of bodies until to we see that this sugya is different. They weren’t evil. But they were sooo wrong. Now it’s time to pay the piper.
Ben Torah –
If you could just kill him by shooting him, going through all that is clor bittul torah & baal tashchis on the wasted bullets. Seriously though? If the only option was lethal action, we’d be obligated to do that as well. Luckily, we have a prison system and mines in new zealand.
And you can see where the anger is. This is hell for the rest of the person life. The lucky ones screw up their marriages and then get five years of therapy and hopefully put humpty dumpty back together again. The rest kill themselves or molest other kids or become drug addicts or abusive parents/spouses or s** addicts or homosexuals…yada yada yada yada
Rav Eliashev’s psak never said anything about Rodef.
Are we requiring halachic court standards of proof prior to lynching him or the mafia’s standards of guilt (and hoping the allegations are true)?
Helpful, Rav Eliyashuv called a molester a Rodef. We must be talking about two different things.
Moq, see why one Rav’s psak will be taken apart till it means nothing??????
As far as schools are concerned many schools who have found issues have immediately sent letters home to inform parents that an issue has been discovered and if anyone else’s child had any contact with “this teacher” and is displaying any of the following symptoms….to please contact the principal on his private line. IN addition, please talk to your children about…… So schools who have stepped up to the plate as far as their responsibility, their concern, their part in prevention have nothing to worry about.
I have been involved in the JBAC and have done my research with therapists, attorneys, victim/survivors, etc. I have not heard of stories where the perps had guilt or remorse at all. They are all in denial and continue to prey rather than admit guilt and seek treatment even if they are well into their 70’s. They choose to remain on top with all the honors that it provides rather than help their victims heal no matter what horrors they are going through. So for the handful of remorseful or pained individuals that have hurt countless numbers of victims, good luck to you if you believe them. I and my colleagues don’t. But go ahead, take out an ad in your local paper and see how many of them would respond, or go to Dov Hikind and see if he would contact any and offer them a deal and see how many would respond. I doubt if any would take the magic pill even if they were offered amnesty with the blessing of their victims.
I apologize profusely for the typo, I didn’t mean the BJJ, i meant to type BJE, obviously.
Moq, I give you a lot of credit for your enthusiasm and I don’t want to squash it one iota. But we have all tried the “derech” and the frum way. It doesn’t work and there are way too many innocent neshomas being slaughtered while we keep trying. We can’t waste any more time. We just can’t. It is not up to us to allow this to continue while our kinderlach are the kaporos. The only way to stop it is by professional means. Parents can tell the signs, it is not that difficult. Children change from this torture. Their sleep patterns change, their concentration changes, their habits change. There are signs to look out for. If you see the signs and your kids tell you something believe them and take them to their doctor if you don’t want to go to the police. The doctor will handle it for you. And don’t be afraid to answer the questions honestly. AND by all means DON’T MAKE UP THE ANSWERS! If you are not sure, say you are not sure. Let the experts figure it out, they know how.
Moq, understand that there are victims today as young as 3 and as old as 53. That is the scary part.
aries: Helpful is correct. Check out the psak. Rav Elyashev never said their a rodef.
Health,
That is from Rav Klein’s psak, and Rav Klein just said he cannot confirm the third-hand hearsay to that effect. So even R. Klein’s psak is saying no source for such claim! Secondly, even that hearsay from the Professor’s book is not claiming anyone said he was a rodef.
If you read Rav Elyashev’s psak (quoted earlier in the thread), R. Elyashev said “tikun olam” not rodef. AND R. Elyashev said the proof must be “CERTAIN” before one is allowed to call the police or authorities.
Some people would like to lynch anyone who someone merely claims is a molester, proof or real guilt be damned.
I did not read the whole post so I might say something redundant. But this whole post sickens me out that people are klering if its ok to cover for a child molester. I agree that in 1% of cases there is a safek if the child is saying the truth or not, so Reb Elyashiv’s psak applies. BUt in the yeshivish world, 99% of cases it is obvious that the child is saying the whole truth. UNless it is a really weird kid. It’s gross how so many people who are fake rabbonim and rebbeim get away with this, because of their reputation and stuff, while innocent children and parents have to suffer! I think I read somebody who commented that we don’t believe a child in Beis Din, so we are not allowed to believ a child in this case! Meshugas! So from now on, according to that svora I will never believ a woman, child, or gentile for anything! There are special gzeras hakasuv l’inyan eidus bbeis din, and this doesn’t neccesarily apply anywhere else! Anyways, I want MOshiach to come, and klal yisroel to be cleaned out of their psoles!
So right- This time you’re so WRONG! Why don’t you clarify it with Prof. Sofer? If you grill him and somehow his story doesn’t add up -then you can question his veracity. But until that, this professor has a chezkas kashrus! R. Klein doesn’t have to find out what R. Eliashiv holds -he is issuing his own psak. That doesn’t mean like you say- “So even R. Klein’s psak is saying no source for such claim!” That means maybe he would be Mevatel his Daas to them if he knew Klorr what they held! And I wasn’t talking about what the Geder of proof is. Why mix it in?
I still think it would be hard to find kids who are willing to stand up in a court of law (physically!!) and testify. I find most kids are afraid to talk. And very often the parents cover up the situation (denial and heads in the sand, not to save the creep), more so even than the community would cover for the perp. And in the end nobody goes anywhere for a misdemeanor, which is what it is if there is only a certain level of touching. All that trauma to the kid (the investigation, not just the abuse) and I don’t think the molester even makes it to the SO database.
If there is even Raglayim L’Davar, precautions must be taken.
See: ??????????? ????-?????????
Syag unfortunately you are so right
Yeah syag has a very good point. I am maskim a hundred percent. BUt I think this problem is part of a much bigger problem that plagues the Jewish people. I’ve had so many bad experiences wwith many rabonim and rebeim (not molesting boruch Hashem) and on the other hand there are many good ones too. BUt my point being that these positions aren’t neccesarily based on the person’s personal yiras shomayim and Torah, but on their kavod and stuff! And some are child molesters, some do other aveiros in private, etc. On the other hand there are so many talmidei chachomim amitiyim that sit in the dumps with no recognition and perhaps bizayon!! This is a problem that’s practically impossible to solve til moshiach comes!
gavra: Precautions, yes. But that doesn’t mean masering to police based on unsubstantiated suspicions.
Monday, May 17, 2010
R’ Moshe Halberstam: Mitzva to imprison molester
Bottom line: If a child is in danger of being molested – the police need to be called. If there is any uncertainty – either regarding the facts or the seriousness of the incident – an experienced rabbi or professional should be consulted. However if it is clear that children are in danger of being molested – a rabbi does not have to be consulted. Rav Sternbuch concluded, “Let the molester rot in jail.”
To my dear friend…HaGaon Rav Shraga Feivel Cohen…?..
But according to what was said [above], in a case that entails tikkun hao/am, governmental authorization is not necessary. However, all of this, to permit notifying the government, is only where it is clear that he participated in the crime. It is in this case that there is an issue of tikkun haolam. But where there is not even circumstantial evidence (rag/ayim /adavar), but only some impression [that he is guilty], then not only is there no issue of tikkun hao/am, but [to the contrary] there is heres haolam (ruination of the world) here. And it is possible that because of a certain bitterness that a student feels toward the teacher and makes a false accusation against him or because of [someone’s] delusion, a person [i.e. the accused] will be put into a situation in which his death will be preferable to his life. And it will be through no fault of his own, and [in that case],4 I see no permit in the matter.
And with this I remain your friend seeking the welfare of your distinguished person of Torah,
Yasef Shalom Elyashlv.
I can copy and paste the entire translated letter if you want but I thought it would be too much. Please note that the Rav says that only when there is “circumstantial evidence or just an impression” that a person is guilty, then it should not be reported. And I think everyone in their right mind would agree. In such a case a person who is suspect should be quietly monitored without being exposed until he is proven innocent or proven guilty.
OK, here is the rest of it:
The essence of the question: A person knows someone who is abusing a boy or a girl sexually, and the case is such that we are incapable of restraining him ‘from continuing his evil deeds, is it permitted to inform an official of the government about this?
My view is that if the witnesses are found to be credible by the chosen judges, [those judges] are authorized to impose a monetary penalty or a physical punishment, however they see fit. This preserves the world, for if you will keep strictly to the laws fixed in the Torah and not punish except where the Torah has punished, we will confront a destroyed world. Thus will people breach the world’s [most fundamental] safeguards2 and thus will the world become devastated. And [we find precedents in that sages] have already instituted penalties for striking one’s fellow…In each and every locale, [the rabbinical authorities] exercise their judicial powers to safeguard
generation, and so has it been done in each and every generation and in each and every place where they saw that the hour called for this…
[See, for example, Sanhedrin 58b in regard to Rav Huna]…
Therefore, these chosen judges that did this, if they saw a need of the hour for the betterment of the province, then they acted legally. This Is true all the more so If there is a governmental authorization [for their actions], similar to the case of R’ Elazar Bar R’ Shimon in Bava Metzia 83b.3
From the Rashba’s words, we learn that in a matter that entails tikkun haolam (the betterment of the world), the Sages of the Jewish people in every generation are empowered to institute a safeguard and stand in the breach, even where there is no authorization from the government. Now, from what the Ritva writes (to Bava Metzia 84b) it appears that this [power] is [due solely to] the authorization of the government.
This is his language there:
He said to them, “Arrest him!” Now, that which [R’ Elazar bar R’ Shimon] exercisedjudicial power [in this way] without witnesses or forewarning, and not In the era of the Sanhedrin [which is forbidden]; It is different here, because he was [acting as] an agent of the king, and It is part of the laws of kingship [as opposed to the laws of a
Sanhedrin] to executea person without witnesses and forewarning to correct the world punitively, as it Is stated regarding [King] David who executed the Ger Amalekl [without witnesses, forewarning or the deliberation of a Sanhedrin}, and the agent of a King is the same as him [i.e. similar/y empowered}.
So what do we learn from this? Anyone can take anything and cut and paste it to make it sound the way they want it to sound. But in reality, the RAV did say that if it is a valid accusation the authorities should be involved because it is their jurisdiction. IF however the accusation is weak and it is just implied or you only have circumstantial evidence then it is not enough to get the authorities involved and take the chance to ruin a possibly innocent accused’s life.
Are we clear on that now?
Aries –
thanks for your honesty. If I understand you correctly, you are agreeing with me, but telling that unfortunately it’s just not possible.
Surely , you’ve seen the difficulty of convincing the general community of this, which is used to following Rabbinic lead, but you are convinced – based on experience in the field – that it’s the only way to protect our kids.
Maybe you’re right. But I think, we both hope that you are wrong. Maybe things can change; maybe after the lid was blown off now we can build a consensus. Nothing wrong with hoping, and I think that things are different; so much has changed. 20% of the frum community has been in therapy. Things are changing. So much is coming out from under the rug. Apparently, it got crowded. We are growing as a community. I really believe that.
I had the zechus of watching two abuse victims – one by his father, one by a counselor in camp – rebuild there lives through intense therapy, kind mentoring, and spouses sent from the kisey hakavod itself. The second actually abused another child – when he was child as well (eight years old) – and later looked him up and asked mechila.
It was a beautiful thing to be involved in. Both are Talmidey Chachamim, with healthy families. It was a magical thing to watch and be involved in. There is hope. And hope starts with hoping.
This has gotten me thinking. I think I need to start writing & researching…I’ve never articulated a plan so clearly…and we’ll see where that goes, eh? I have been directly involved for a while…but…
You may still hold you are correct, but at least pray you are wrong. I think we can both agree on that.
Moq, Yes I agree with your sincerity and I wish you Hatzlocha rabah in all you do. And we should all do our best to stop this machla in its tracks and save the children and as we do, work our hardest to help heal all those in pain.
Moq, maybe as WE start locking up more and more molesters publicly maybe more and more Rabbonim will step up to the plate and actually form TRUE batei dinim that will handle such issues appropriately and lock up perpetrators as well. Maybe BD, will order abusers to pay retribution and to be locked up for forced therapy and have 24/7 shomrim and electric monitoring systems. Maybe public apologies will be forthcoming to the frum community of victim/survivors. Maybe all this can happen in the future, but first we must STOP serving up more yiddishe neshomas on silver platters.
Indeed. Well said.
Moq, what kind of security measures do you think can be implemented in mikvaot? I am a female and I have my ideas, but as a male what do you think can be done to keep male minors safe?
Mikvas are a problem….big problem. I don’t have an answer. People have a minhag to bring children there; I think it’s a really bad idea. I just don’t have an answer. Yeah, it happens, especially in the Olympic sized mikavaos with over a hundred people on a busy erev shabbos. Any solution is almost as bad as the problem and makes thing super wierd for the normal people. (Cameras? A ‘shomer’? Yuck).
Aries:
Parents should not let minors go to Mikveh by themselves thats would be a start
Now days most mechanchim say not to let children go in mikva. and yes some (not to many) mikvois have a shomer.
Anyone who has a minhug to go will not change their minhug.
I don’t understand bringing children to a mikvah. I thought boys are not supposed to see their fathers without clothes and I wouldn’t want them seeing anyone elses father without clothes.
Then you don’t know the inyan of going to the mikva. By Bar Mitzva — at latest — boys go to the mikva at least every Erev Shabbos, if not daily.
Unfortunately this discussion is based on a very limited awareness of the sources and consequently the assertions and conclusions are not very accurate. Sincere yet uninformed pronouncements about rodef and mesira are not very productive. This is not an area for conjecture and wishful thinking – especially when the material has already been organized and translated.
I just published two volumes on the subject
“Child & Domestic Abuse” Volumes I & II
available on Amazon. Volume I is a practical guide according to halacha as well as a description of the psychological and legal realities.
Volume II is a collection of the sources in both Hebrew & English. It includes the views of Rav Eliashiv, Rav Moshe Halberstam and many others.
If you really want to do the right thing than you need to study the subject – the halachic views, the psychological, legal and sociolgical. The well being of your kids is at stake.
Soright,
You keep rferring to the many many false accusations to upport your position. Exactly how many is “many”? What are your sources?
The reason why we protect molasters, is that they are our friends
and chavrusas.
i once asked someone why women are hardly ever believed that their husbands abuse them (the husband seems so “choshuv”,etc.)why would someone waste so much time running around from one rav to the next begging for a get if it wasn’t true???
one answer was: “one woman’s testimony is not considered aidus except by…”Another one said :”she doesn’t realize it’s not her husband,it’s the little brats(verbatim)”yet another one said:”just be accessible at all times”etc.etc.
my point is:GROWN WOMEN ARE DISMISSED ABOUT CLAIMS OF ABUSE…KAL V’CHOMER POOR LITTLE KIDS.
ironically:if someone accuses someone FALSELY of being abused,the rumors spread like wildfire!!
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