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Thanks.
(Hey chad pami! Look; I thanked someone.)
Ben Torah, Wikipedia is not perfect, but this particular passage is footnoted with references, it confirms what I wrote above, and I suggest it should work for now, and this is what I copied and pasted:
“A 1992 meta-analysis suggests that false allegations represent between two and ten percent of all allegations.[6] False reports are more common in custody disputes.[15][16][17] Children appear to rarely make up false allegations of their own accord[18][19][20] but will make false allegations if coercively questioned by individuals who believe abuse has occurred but refuse to accept children’s statements that they were not abused (as was common practice during the satanic ritual abuse moral panic).[7]”
In our community, the psychologist Dr. David Pelcovitz has publicly stated, over and over again, that false child abuse claims are very rare. He is a frequent lecturer, and specializes in the treatment of abuse victims.
You make a Talmudic argument: “You wouldn’t know what percent were false claims; only what percent were later proven false. Those false that resulted in a false conviction, your stats will still show as true.” Only in Shamayim will we know which convictions, if any, were false. Meanwhile, here on Earth, Jews and b’nei Noach are required to establish a justice system. Your argument does work in the beis medrash, but not when we’re dealing with life-and-death. Child abuse is a type of slow homicide. MRI brain scans and other tests have been performed on deceased child abuse victims. There is brain damage, and cell changes. Their life spans are statistically shorter. They suffer higher percentages of severe depression, alcoholism, drug abuse, and suicide. Dr. Michael Salomon, a psychologist, addressed this issue at our Brooklyn conference on October 24 at R’ Gershon Tanenbaum’s shul; and Dr. Nachum Klafter, a psychiatrist, addresses this issue in our Jewish Board of Advocates for Children Position Paper (jewishadvocates.org).
Next you write, “Furthermore, the psak from Rav Elyshev is that it is ONLY permissible to report to the secular authorities after it has been 100% ascertained as factual.” From the English translation above, which I’ve seen before, Rav Elyashiv does not insist that the burden of proof be satisfied 100 per cent.
100 per cent is also not the burden in a secular court; nor in a beis din, where child testimony is now accepted, and also women’s testimony, and you don’t need two witnesses, and warnings.
Credible victim can be adequate, particularly when accompanied by other proof: e.g., did the victim complain shortly after the crime, was there medical and/or psychological treatment, were there other credible complaints about the alleged perpetrator. Physical and scientific evidence are not required in order to get a conviction.
I also point out that Rav Elyashiv was speaking in general, not as to a specific case in front of him. I suggest the Rav was giving general guidelines, and not hard-and-fast rules. As you probably know, perhaps better than I, a p’sak dealing with an actual, live case in front of the rav-posek should be given greater weight than a general commentary. I heard a good shiur on this once, dealing with an agunah, but can’t recall the details.
Mr. Pasik: 100% proven IS the standard of proof per Torah law. And that IS what Rav Eliashev insists in his psak. And Rav Eliashev’s psak (as the one below) WAS regarding an actual case.
Here is another relevant psak.
Rav Menashe Klein (Mishneh Halachos 16:58):
I’m familiar with Rav Klein’s opinion, and it definitely appears to be in the minority.
Rav Dovid Cohen says, Go to the police. Rav Hershel Schachter, of RIETS, who is respected in the yeshivish and Chassidish communities, says, Go to the police.
I don’t believe the type of burden of proof you’re insisting upon is actually being followed in the vast majority of battei din today where child abuse cases have been adjudicated, in the recent past. There have been special battei din dealing with these cases in Los Angeles and Chicago, for example, where rabbis and professionals have worked together, and they could not have applied the ultra-high burden of Torah law that existed in the past, i.e., two witnesses, and warning.
Another example is a case heard by Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky, written about in the Forward. There was victim testimony only, he was persuaded by the testimony, and he forwarded his findings to a beis din in Eretz Yisroel. They decided not to pursue the case, because they felt it was too old. The important point here, however, is that the strict Torah rules of beis din were relaxed. If not, we’ll have child abusers running amok, which, to some extent, is what is happening.
Yes, it appears that the questioner was asking about a specific case, but the factual details are omitted from Rav Elyashiv’s opinion. That’s critical. As a result, we don’t truly know what evidence would satisfy Rav Elyashiv. I read the “p’sak” more as a guideline, than as a definitive halachic ruling. There are other teshuvos where the evidence is specifically referred to. In secular law, there are also appellate court precedents where, in discussing burdens of proof, specific evidence is referred to.
“Mr. Pasik: 100% proven IS the standard of proof per Torah law.”
Thats right becuz if bais din ever executed anyone unfairly it would mean that the Torah cant be relied on. So for anyone to cause anyother yid to be put in jail ect, we have to be 100% sure.
“If someone is a moser, but thinks he is doing the right thing, do we still kill him? “
yes a moser is always killed unless he went to bais din and asked permision first. I no some cases where mosrim were beaten up (not killed) for going to the goyishe police.
“Not to mention the police who put their lives on the line to keep the city streets safe.”
Aisav Sonei Lyaakov even when hes a policeman.
Anyone here not pro handing molesters to police is either
1. A molester
2. Ignorant
3. Has no kids
If you had kids and someone molested them you’d probably give him the baseball bat treatment. They are monsters and deserve to be locked away forever.
Ben Torah:
For reasons (unrelated to molestation) Rav Klein shlit’a is very against ANY secular court involvement. His psak is a Daas Yachid and is not accepted by the Gedolei Eretz Yisroel, or by the poskim in America.
The simple reason being that molestation and any form of PHYSICAL harm or threats that a reasonable person can assume will lead to PHYSICAL harm the person is a rodef. Bais Din nowadays lacks the enforcement power to curtail these behaviors and requires secular authorities intervention. PHYSICAL harm the poskim are lenient with the laws of mesirah. It’s better to be maikel in mesirah than to be machmir against a potential victim. NO ONE FORCES A PERSON TO GET PHYSICAL. IF HE CHOSE TO DO IT, HE MUST LIVE WITH THE CONSEQUENCES.
mosherose: Glad to see the troll is back!!
Ben Torah if it happened to one of YOUR children I wonder if you would have the same response!! YOU as Rabbonim up until recently were looking to defend the molester and save children from one. And that is why it is still common practice that molestation is going on in our frum communities in much greater numbers than 30 or 40 years ago. Lie rabbits it multiplies. And that it is covered up like it was 30 or 40 years ago. But if it happened to someone close to you, would you be so eager to defend the molester? Would you be so eager to just fire him from his job? Which by the way no one ever has? And which by the way does not stop them from finding the same job in another school or from walking near the playground and finding another victim.
So while you show off your knowledge of the Torah at least one more child gets molested,
Moq, I apologize if I sounded too aggressive or harsh when I addressed you in particular. I know victim survivors and I know of those who didn’t survive. And I know of a victim who didn’t survive who’s house was torched because his story got out. So yes I am very passionate about this subject and stopping this evil in its tracks.
WIY: Rav Menashe Klein shlit”a doesn’t fit in any of your categories, even though opposed to going to the authorities.
Rav Eliashev shlit”a said its assur to go to the police, unless the proof is “certain”.
Vnishmartem –
Your question should be addressed to Rav Klein shlita, not any poster here merely quoting him. Calling ignorance what one of the Gedolei HaPoskim said, is not where you wish to go.
These people need help locking them up in jail is not a soulution. Why cant there be a rehab center where they can get help? Lock them up but as long as they dont get help they are not going to stop doing what they are doing.
No Helpful, Rabbi Klein did not comment here. We address those who choose to bring in quotes to support their positions.
These people need help locking them up in jail is not a soulution. Why cant there be a rehab center where they can get help? Lock them up but as long as they dont get help they are not going to stop doing what they are doing.
Then lock them up and throw away the key. I wouldn’t want a molester anywhere near my children, even if he’s been “rehabilitated.”
Here are a couple reasons why I respectfully disagree with the opinion of Rabbi Klein, and I do agree with the majority of poskim holding that molesters should be brought to the police.
1. The underlying assumption behind Rabbi Klein’s opinion above is that once fired from a school, the molester is no longer a danger to the community. Not so. He can work in another school, or in another job near children, or move to a different community or country. Even the best of school authorities, in attempting to keep track of the molester’s whereabouts, will not succeed. Child molesters are notoriously devious, and their deviant yetzer hara is never fixed. Even with therapy, the consensus of psychologists is that there is absolutely no cure for child molesters. They have a high rate of repeat offending. Religious school authorities are no match for the power of the secular criminal justice system. A successful prosecution can result in a prison term which will take the molester off the streets for a period of time. There will likely be some publicity in local newspapers, so the community will know that this man is a molester, and proper precautions can be taken. Additionally, he will have a permanent criminal record, easily checked on the Internet, and it is unlikely that he will ever work again near children. Yeshiva administrators do not remotely have the ability to do any of this.
2. Additionally, Rabbi Klein appears to insist that a beis din may only adjudicate a molester through “proper witnesses”. Bizman ha’zeh, as others have ruled, this is too high a procedural burden, given what we know about the number of molesters out there, and the damage they inflict. Children and women need to testify.
Notably, also, Rabbi Klein acknowleges that other rabbis hold that molesters should be reported to the police.
As far as a beis din being required to reach a judgment with perfect “100 percent” certainty, I would suggest that those who raise this issue cite a source. I’ve never heard of this, and logically, it doesn’t make much sense. There are frequently witness credibility issues, memory issues, perception issues, and scientific, objective evidence has not always existed, obviously.
Mamashtaka – thats not the Torah position OR the secular one. They do not get a life sentence, and they are released.
Lets call a spade a spade: would you send your children to a school with rumored molestors teaching there but they couldn’t get two solid witnesses?
If your answer is yes, follow Rabbi Klein. If your answer is no, then report the molestors to police.
Elliot Pasik –
HaRav Shalom Yosef Elyashev shlita is one of the sources that the evidence must be “certain” (i.e. conclusive) in order to call the police or DA. See his psak. Otherwise anyone reporting it to the police or DA is a moser, and subject to those consequences.
100% proven IS the standard of proof per Torah law
and
Thats right becuz if bais din ever executed anyone unfairly it would mean that the Torah cant be relied on. So for anyone to cause anyother yid to be put in jail ect, we have to be 100% sure.
Tell that to Shimon ben Shetach.
The Wolf
I think part of the problem is the world molester sounds too benign. We should call them serial child rapists. That would wake some people up!!!!
To quote the teshuva (as per BT):
However in a case where there is no proof that this activity is happening but it is merely a conjecture or suspicion, if we permit the calling of the authorities – not only would it not be an improvement (tikun olam) – but it would destroy society.
Seemingly, as long as there is reasonable suspicion (such as beyond reasonable doubt or even perponderance of the evidence), it would no longer be “merely a conjecture or suspicion” and even Rav Elyashiv would agree.
I still maintain that Rav Elyashiv was only talking about EY. To claim that the teshuva applies to anyone outside the circumstances that applies for the questioner is just conjecture.
(And yes, I know helpful & BT will disagree. They have no proof the P’sak applies in America, and repeating it will not change anyone’s mind).
Fascinating. Ok, I’m going to address the rationale stuff 🙂
Aries
– as always, your graciousness is appreciated. Hopefully, conversations like this will eventually breed a grass roots solution.
And 90% of the time, Gedoley Yisroel are passive – AKA giving Haskamos to initiatives started by a “meshugena l’davar echad” – aka, Sarah Schnierer or Rosenberg (Shaatnez) etc. It would certainly be an honor to be called a Meshugena for these kids.
As Per R’ Menashe Klien’s Psak –
There are two aspects here –
Punishment – that requires a full classical Torah standard of proof. We cannot dish out punishment or reprisal or cause punishment without it. Nor can we cause a punishment that is no Beis Din like. So we cannot use the secular courts for punishment. I think that Mr. Pasik Esq. and Aries will agree with this.
And based on that we can understand why so many were silent.
But there is a second, more important aspect, and that with bitter experience – and this is where our community has erred until now, and why those who tried to brush things under the rug should made a costly mistake , but were not evil – prevention. Rodef. And R’ Menashe Klien is correct, if you can stop a Rodef in another way, you must, But…bitter, painful, experience has shown that they pick themselves up and find another school. And in today’s 30,000 a year yeshivos, we need to take whom we can get. And he attacks again. Gets fired. Attacks again.
The only way to permanently keep the Rodef from stiking again is either incarceration or the electric chair. Firing just doesn’t stop the Rodef. We’ve protect this years class. But not the next yeshiva – and if he does it, again and again, as research – reliable, none hysterical research has shown a tremendous recidivism rate when around children – he needs to be locked up for a nice amount of years, and then be branded as sex offender.
And a Rodef requires a lower standard of proof then punishment.
When we see someone chasing someone else with a knife, we need not ask Beis Din. We need to lock & load. But what standard? Whatever it is – it is not the classical Torah standard of proof. Soklin V’Sorfim Al HaChazakos. This requires more research (for instance, we permit a late term abortion to the save the Mother’s life, based on the say so of a professional. Obviously, we would not execute someone based on this. But we are permitted to kill baby – Hashem Yishmor – based on the Din Rodef.)
Again, I don’t think we should let the police determine this, but the standard is definitely lower then two witnesses etc. And since experience has shown that the only way to prevent is via the authorities, we must do so.
(Mr. Pasik – what has the success rate been with chemical castration? I know in Israel the injections are often a condition of parole, and are covered by insurance).
A child’s word should be taken into account – even more so, his behavior & actions being consistent with the clinical behavior of a victim, certainly if he attempts to molest another child (of course, we know he’s a victim, but we don’t know from whom, even if he claims it’s Rebbe – it could very well be a parent, Hashem Yishmor. Investigate!).
Again, I’m not sure exactly where the line is. To give everything to the police is irresponsible. To wait for two witnesses is to let the Rodef keep killing. My idea is to have an internal investigation.
As Per R’ Elyashiv –
R’ Elyashiv says certain. True. But what on earth does that mean. He is well known for being concise. Certain does not davka mean two witnesses. I believe he means Rodef standard, because a Rodef clearly does not require two witnesses. We seek prevention by all means necessary, not punishment.
Some other aspects –
This has become a megefah amoungst us; I was told by a respected psychologist that our abuse rate has exceeded the general population. We need to find out why, and deal with it from there. I have what to say about this, but I’d like to hear your opinions first.
We need to be preventative, before the molester strikes
-Child education of what red lines are. Establishing a confidential reporting hotline (to my imaginary independent investigative force)
-Unfortunately, we need to require teaching professionals to treat children as girls. No yichud. No touching. Period. Makes things safer for everyone involved. And less excuses if accusations come up. And no yichud will prevent the opportunity for a false accusation.
-Video cameras in all classrooms. Small, subtle ones. Everyone is told about them. It’s not expensive, a few thousand dollars for a school. Again, protecting innocent children – and innocent rebbeim/teachers. You can easily keep recordings for a year, with compression and a few decent hard drives.
-Profiling & background checks. Why why why not? Everyone.
-A confidential helpline for the potential abuser. A place he can get help without getting arrested (before he strikes, obviously.) they often struggle with urges for years before they strike. What if there was a hotline, that a potential molester (who was molested himself) could call – that would pay for therapy, help him ease out of teaching via new training and money until he is settled elsewhere, with absolute legal confidentiality (assuming, of course, he hasn’t struck. Then we can’t protect him). Anonymous & helpful. And we’ve saved him and our kids. Figure $30,000 to help him get gainful employed elsewhere & therapy (and perhaps those wonderful injections?). And of course, keep in touch, ever so quietly. That’s a bargain.
-Raise the bar in our schools. Healthy people are not abusers. Because our schools struggle so much, often they hire nebichs. Healthy, put together people go elsewhere. If our schools paid $60,000 a year for a Rebbe and required a Masters degree (or semicha..whatever) – our rates would drop. Molesters are usually unsuccessful people, whom can only control children. But not always. Yes, it’s all about the Benjamins.
This is money we are spending anyway.
Thoughts?
Helpful – that’s unfortunate, isn’t it.
To Moq:
BS”D
Seroiusly? The societal pressure to marry and the lack of outlets.
The lack of Sex Ed for our teens, and the pressure in yeshiva (which is also what drives many Bochrim to smoke, so I have heard)
??? ?? ???? ??? ??????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??????
Keddushin 29B-30A.
Gavra-
But molesters usually are married.
And …well, pressure, has many outlets. Why kids? What does that develop the desire?
And what exactly can we do – other then sex ed, which most get anyway (one way or another). I mean, pilagshim?
Doesn’t add up.
Moq molesters are usually married but they dont wake up one morning and decide to molest a child. Most molesters were molested themselves when they were younger but unfortunately years ago the frum reaction to that was shhhh! dont talk about it. Nowadays the schools and camps are being much more open about the topic and while that wont change an adult molester hopefully it will make everyone more aware. I dont know if locking up a molester is the answer but he should never ever be allowed to work anywhere near children
Gavra-
But molesters usually are married.
Would they be in a non jewish society? Or would they be out in bars trying pick up lines?
And …well, pressure, has many outlets. Why kids? What does that develop the desire?
Easy targets.
And what exactly can we do – other then sex ed, which most get anyway (one way or another). I mean, pilagshim?
One way or another is not good enough. They have to know they (teens in general, not predators) are normal.
See gemorah I quoted. Also repeal Cherem. Zonos (non jews) are NOT a problem on a D’Oraysah level (except according to the Rambam), and if discussed with a rav, may get heter. Spouses should be more attentive to male “needs”.
And the answer never is “do nothing”. Your idea of Chemical Castration is not a bad one (if it works), but a person may want to be proactive (at least until they are settled with a spouse). This would also work for the Mishkav Zochors. We could do this if the community just admitted there is a problem.
squeak:
Why do you not think we should deal with this problem? I say, “Deal with it!”
Moq, you have some good ideas there, and we’re mostly on the same page.
Chemical castration – don’t know too much about it. I’m sure it mostly works. I’ve never heard of it being used in New York. I vaguely recall that it doesn’t work for some, they still have the teiva.
Capital punishment? Unconstitutional in America, recently held by the US Supreme Court. The court held that the death penalty for the non-homicide crime of child molestation violates the Eighth Amendment, which prohibits cruel and inhuman punishment. Louisiana had sentenced a child molester to death, and his punishment was accordingly reduced to life imprisonment.
Gavra-
But molesters usually are married.
Would they be in a non jewish society? Or would they be out in bars trying pick up lines?
>> Hmmm…some yes, some no. I misunderstood. You are saying that the molesters are homosexuals, who have no outlet.
And …well, pressure, has many outlets. Why kids? What does that develop the desire?
Easy targets.
>>And vulnerable. From the mischav zachor perspective, definetly.
And what exactly can we do – oter then sex ed, which most get anyway (one way or another). I mean, pilagshim?
One way or another is not good enough. They have to know they (teens in general, not predators) are normal.
See gemorah I quoted. Also repeal Cherem. Zonos (non jews) are NOT a problem on a D’Oraysah level (except according to the Rambam), and if discussed with a rav, may get heter. Spouses should be more attentive to male “needs”.
>> Hold it, are we talking about heterosexuals or homosexuals? Non-Jews – what – b’tzinah? Many paskin it’s kanaim pogim bo – except the Rambam ( I recently spoke to a Posek about this, I’d prefer not to get into a purely halachic discussion on this particular thread). Rely on him to protect kids? Sound like a slippery slope. But we’re slipping anyway. Cherem? Two wives? One healthy relationship I think is enough for anyone anyway, and a jerk won’t have better luck with two.
Blame it on the wife?
But you are correct in that anything is better and mutar relative to harming a child. Regardless of what the consquences are.
But what a horrible chesbon to have to make. I don’t think that is normal. I think normal people can be happy in normal regular marriages.
What makes a person abnormal that he needs such a heter?
This all sounds to normal; isn’t internet & zonahs the direction frustrated people who can’t control themselves take? Much less risk then kids. Ultimately, nothing bad will happen – legally – if you cheat or go on the internet or to time square. Why risk the decade in prison (and prisoners are known for a certain honor amoung thieves – they torture these people)?
I disagree with you. I don’t think it would help. I think this a perversion that comes from abnormal desires.
I think the problem of regular sexual frustration finds it’s expression in our internet addiction magefa. Which is being discussed on another thread.
—-
And the answer never is “do nothing”. Your idea of Chemical Castration is not a bad one (if it works), but a person may want to be proactive (at least until they are settled with a spouse). This would also work for the Mishkav Zochors. We could do this if the community just admitted there is a problem.
>>The treatment is availible, and not horrible expensive. The community doesn’t have to acknowledge anything – an individual could go to a professional. As far as mishkav zachar…well, can they be cured? There was a great article on Aish about that.
And the dose can be adjusted to permit a married relationship. You’re talking about $3000 a year. We could easily subsidize it. The drug is called Decapeptyl, and it’s a monthly injection. I believe there are other non-permanent drugs as well.
It could also be used temporarily, to get things under control and give therapy & group work a chance to work.
This goes under my idea to establish a place – a hotline, a website, for these people to get subsidized, confidential, professional help.
If someone strikes, we need to strike back mercilessly. But the best thing if they never strike. We need thinking on both ends.
In addition, the only way to keep them away from prey is to lock them up where they can get therapy, where they can be recorded and the public can be aware of them. If everything is done b’shtika no one will know that they live next door and to be careful not to let them near your children.
Can you even comprehend how many children have fallen prey to repeat offenders because of this? Let’s just go back to the case in the Flatbush yeshiva. Try to imagine how many kids could have been saved from that menuval if the Rosh took it seriously the first time he heard about it.
aries- i am not from New York and have not heard about that story….but it sounds really scary! what happened?
Moq:
I think you are correct.
The Mishkav Zachor idea is for those who want to follow the Torah, but find the Yetzer too strong. If they can remove the Yetzer via injection, they can live a somewhat normal life within Torah boundaries.
GAW, the problem is that they CHOOSE not to seek treatment for this disease and act on their impulses instead. If you have crave chazar would you not speak to someone? If you crave milk after meat would you not seek help? If you keep turning on lights on Shabbos would you not find out what is wrong with you? But this terrible machlah where you hurt others you don’t seek treatment? NO! they CHOOSE to give in to their teivos instead of seeking help to stop them. This is the huge issue. Everyone has and had a choice in this situation for decades.
Choice one was not to give in to the impulse and seek help.
Choice two was not to cover up for those who hurt innocent kids and stop them either by forcing them into therapy and getting them away from kids, or by turning them into the authorities.
And those two choices are still on the table today.
Coke, I can’t give you the names or the story here on YW because they won’t post it. If you really want to know you will have to google Jewish molesters in Flatbush Yeshiva and see what comes up.
aries2756:
I’m not disagreeing with you, I just think it should be publicised as an option for those who want help.
I find it hard to post in general and on this topic in specific. But as a molestation victim I have to say that I agree with the theory of mining in New Zealand. There are some incorrect messages out there though. The molestation happening in some dorms and houses between boys may have a lot to do with hormones and lack of outlet (although I don’t know if I would give the latter too much credit). That was the circumstances under which I sufferred. And those boys have some serious problems of their own. But the men out there who are molesting boys are NOT doing it because the are gay and have nowhere else to turn. Pedophiles are addicts and in a league of their own. They are ill and they are dangerous. And chasing them out of the city means chasing them into a city. They need to stay under careful watch of everyone around them who should know that they are not to use the mikva-os or shul bathrooms etc. Let them eat by the Rav, but not when single moms are there with their kids who now think these men are friends. Personally, I would rather they get hit by cars and die, but I do think they need to be watched, and not chased. Also, I remember telling my mother and she did nothing. Many of my friends did likewise. But I MUST say, that years and years later, when I play back the words I gave my mother as a VERY young child, it was something like this,”I really don’t like when X comes over” “Don’t let X come over because he bothers me” I even think she asked me if he did anything bad and I was too scared to tell the truth and said no. But in my mind she should have known.And please don’t put my mother on the firing line. I spoke to her many years later and cleared up the issue. We talked about many of her friends who also got vague types of ‘reports’ at a time when people just wouldn’t have an inkling that this was going on. And if she believed me, and if she somehow got me to testify against this person, I have to tell you that by law it would have been nothing more than a misdemeanor. I am NOT defending anyone here, I just think people should understand how complicating this is, how careful we need to be to listen to the most subtle of messages.
And what I will forever have charata for is the following story. After years of my own abuse I had a close friend who was not very careful of nivul peh in general. When the name of a certain Rav was mentioned he would always say (with a laugh), “Oh that’s the one that grabbed for my crotch”. And do you know what I used to say? I used to say, “Shut up. You are such a jerk. Will you stop talking like that in front of me”. He would laugh again, seemingly at his own joke. If he was still alive I would apologize for not listening harder.
Did you guys get the message? “if he were still alive”???? Are you understanding the extent of this disease and the consequences?????
Wow Syag thank you for sharing that. Im sorry that you had to go thru all of that. Unfortunately years ago that was the reaction. Dont beleive the child dont talk about it it didnt happen it couldnt be. There was a boy that was molesting children on a school bus on a 1 1/2 hour ride. We went to the rabbanim of the community and begged them to do something get this boy help. THEY DID NOTHING!!! They said dont say anything its going to ruin his familys’ name bla bla bla. They dont realize what a cycle it is. You dont get help he molests a child the child molests someone else it doesnt end without help!
While we sit and discuss and try to figure it out more lambs are brought to the slaughter each and every day. Lets think about that for a while. Each day that passes while WE discuss the merits of going to the authorities or not not just one but many vulnerable and innocent Jewish children (plus goyishe) are being molested as we speak.
Is talking and discussing really enough?
I try hard not to think about the covering up and see what I myself can do to make changes (I have spread the word to friends about who to keep their kids away from). I must say, too, that my friends who were victims and even those who are having trouble within their own personal married lives because of the abuse, are still not willing to talk either. They don’t want to know that there is help, they don’t want to know that it is still hurting them. They too are covering up for these guys on some level. And again they are the only ones who end up hurting.
They dont want to know that there is help because going for help means that you are admitting that you were a victim. But Boruch Hashem there is help. It takes years to get over something like this but with the right support it can be done. B”H 3 of those boys on the bus did go for therapy but it was years before they were able to get over what they went through.
GAW, the problem is that they CHOOSE not to seek treatment for this disease and act on their impulses instead. If you have crave chazar would you not speak to someone? If you crave milk after meat would you not seek help? If you keep turning on lights on Shabbos would you not find out what is wrong with you? But this terrible machlah where you hurt others you don’t seek treatment? NO! they CHOOSE to give in to their teivos instead of seeking help to stop them. This is the huge issue. Everyone has and had a choice in this situation for decades.
Choice one was not to give in to the impulse and seek help.
Choice two was not to cover up for those who hurt innocent kids and stop them either by forcing them into therapy and getting them away from kids, or by turning them into the authorities.
And those two choices are still on the table today.
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I once spoke to a CSW in the field about this, her take was that most are addicts and to a degree can’t help themselves (not that should make us think twice about eliminating them). So, while I presume that many are psychopaths who simply don’t care, many don’t know that there is help, and are terrified or being labeled as horrible as their desires are. Again, many were abused themselves. Like any addiction, the shame must be overwhelming. Many convince themselves in a twisted way that they are helping the child (NAMBLA!) etc., etc. Sick, sick, sick But if they knew there was where to turn to, that they could leave teaching, be promised financial support and training for another field, and get therapy – I think we could help many. and prevent – what was the number you quoted? – 400 victims for – let’s 20k in counseling and 20k in tuition. that’s $100 per victim that didn’t happen. Many don’t think there is hope for them. There is with the right – before they strike. we can save their families , marriages – and above all – potential victims.
sweet.
and this all before they strike. Afterward, we promise nothing. buit if there is a promise – come in, we’ll help you, we won’t run you out of town, we’ll just help you leave being around kids, and no one will know, and we’ll help you “stay clean” through therapy and injections, and just ask you to meet with your sponsor once a week – we’d get takers. You’re right, some want it. but I think most are tormented.
For the others? Find em. Kill em.
Syag – thank you for educating us – thank you for sharing.
Moq, here is the problem. Just like victims are afraid to get help because of shidduchim etc. kal v’chomer how much harder would it be for a perpetrator to admit their problem and get help???????
Here is another thing, an addict can convince themselves that they are not hurting anyone but themselves which is why they continue because they can’t see how far reaching their spiderweb becomes, but with this illness they know good and well they have immediate victims. So I don’t know which CSW you spoke to but it is not so simple to just lable them “addicts”. Yes it can be considered and addiction but I would not put them in the same category as “addicts”.
Just some validation of what was said above. How I wish this could be anonymous, maybe mods, can you arrange that? In a different life I taught LD highschool. It was a job I fell into accidentally, I wasn’t trained specifically for teaching at all, but I put all my heart and all my creativity into them, unaware, and young and stupidly so, that the principal was molesting them. It was a spectacle to see parents of the molested begging for the school not to shut down over this, but thankfully for all involved, it closed.The roveah ran away to EY, and hung up a shingle in counseling. How clever. In the ensuing years I got an education, being a small cog in Jewish health care, I saw and heard a lot of sad stuff, and so I eventually developed the zero tolerance attitude. I feel nausia when I hear a certain person’s music in shul, and I avoid Shabbos Mevorchim kabbalas shabbos. After some years in EY, I came across the roveah’s name on a mailbox. It really shook me. BH, I beleive they gave him back to the Americans, for though I would not pursue him, had I crossed his path in a quiet place, I wouldnt think twice. Thank for letting me spill some pain, edit as you must.
The problem here with those who say that R. M. Klein paskens that you are not allowed to give over a molester to the police are misconstruing the psak. In other words the posters here are being mekaleh ponim b’torah shelo k’halacha. We all know the punishment for someone who does this -similiar to a moser. If you read the quote above -he says clearly the reason that molesters aren’t Rodfim is because once fired- end of story. So he brings a reason for his psak. But what implies in this psak that this must be the case -he must be fired and not rehired in other places. The reality is either the yeshiva doesn’t fire him or he gets rehired. Someone once informed me that he was molested in a chasuv yeshiva in NY. The Yeshiva fired him, but they didn’t publicize why. He was rehired somewhere else, out of town, either as a Rebbe or Principal. Right now, he works as a Principal somewhere in NJ. So since these yeshivos don’t stop the Redeefa, there is no way to say that the molester isn’t a Rodef! So R.M. Klein’s psak wouldn’t apply in today’s Yeshiva World!
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