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There are a couple of blogs I follow that try to keep the issue of “child molesters” at the forefront – prevention, awareness and prosecution of perpetrators…
No names, of course. It’s “lashon hara”. So I’ll try to do this in a general way.
Today, I watched a HEARTRENDING video clip of a father explaining to an audience at the recent “Jewish Child abuse awareness event” about the gehinom his son has gone through… a letter the son wrote in therapy detailing what the molester did to him, and encouraged him to try on others! I felt like crying and vomiting at the same time, and knowing neither was the right reaction.
What I DO NOT understand for the life of me, is how seemingly normal people in our community, will reflexively protect the molester (by doing everything possible that no charges are brought against him…) yet HARASS the parents or others in the community that try to help the child’s case – in court or otherwise.
WHAT drives them to do that? They have compassion, obviously, but they direct it to the pervert/perpetrator/achzor/molester… instead of to the child and his family. HOW could this be? WHY is that?
Can ANYONE think of a defensible reason…?
My heart bleeds for these victims, and for the ch”v potential future victims… and I pray that not one more Jewish child, (ANY child!) should have to go through such gehinom.
I would like to preface my comment by stating that I personally think that proven molesters should be run out of town by whatever means is necessary. We must protect our children from these sick monsters.
That said, there is another, equally horrifying scenario we must consider before any action is taken: An innocent man, rejected and degraded by his community, his job lost, his and his family’s reputation gone, his family in shambles. This has also happened far too many times, and my heart bleeds for these people, too.
mw13: Well said.
Children have had “induced memories” by therapists resulting in false allegations of abuse against adults. This is well documented in medical literature. The Wall Street Journal exposed one of many such examples in the case of Gerald Amirault. There was a whole scandal regarding this. See for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_care_sex_abuse_hysteria and http://truthinjustice.org/child-abuse.htm
Wow! Sick monsters!
Did you all know that, by and large, molesters were molested themselves and that is why they do it. They are sick, but monsters?
Unless it is just coincidence that the monsters are the ones who got molested as kids.
vnishmartemmeod:
Because they are chassidei shotah. They are frummer than the Torah. The Torah says mefurash, “Lo saylech rachil be’amecha, velo saamod al dam reiecha”. In the exact sentence that it says don’t talk lashon hara, it cautions that in cases of pikuach nefesh; don’t scream, “It’s lashon harah” to alert the proper authorities.
There is no defense for those who harrass or threaten in any way any family member of an abuse victim. If any victim’s family is harrassed, threatened, or receives any form of retaliation as a result of coming forward, that information is important to be reported to the police.
vnishmartemmeod
Some people protect the molesters because they know them and are their friends and think that theres no way that their friend could have done these sick things. People would rather think that the kids make stuff up than face reality and realize that their best friend, son or brother could be a molester.
Sometimes, the molester is a “chashuv” person in the community like a Rabbi or a professional….and people find it easier to think that kids make stuff up.
Of course in some cases, the reason people side with the molester is because it can affect their institution financially (like a certain yeshivah) or lead to others getting into trouble if it can be proven that the persons bosses knew of the problem and ignored it….
You ask how it can be that the molestor is protected? Well, he may be a prominent person in the community – even a rabbi. People will cover up because they are afraid it will ruin shidduchim for the person’s family members. Or it is that we as a holy Jewish nation cannot fathom that a so-called “frum” person could possibly do something so sick, so we make ourselves really nishtvissendik, or refuse to believe that someone we think we know so well would be such a pervert. It is really painful to acknowledge that a family member could do something so sick. We also do not want the Goyishe Velt to see that even we can fall prey to our taivos, however abnormal they are. And when we are busy pointing fingers at Goyim, three fingers are pointing back at ourselves. Not a pretty picture.
vnishmartem – See my comment about the infamous induced memories scandal that therapists used to bring false accusations against innocent (as later proven) adults. This has happened very frequently. Repeat, very frequently. There even was an entire set of false incedents across the country known as the “Day care sex abuse hysteria”. You cannot accept a child’s accusation at face value.
That being said, as mw13, pointed out, when the allegation is PROVEN BEYOND DOUBT the consequences must be severe. And if there is serious reason to believe the accuser, the accused should be removed from working with children, even if there is no criminal penalties since there is no proof.
Shavua Tov from Israel.B”H we had much need rain today………
Molesters are monsters [they may have been molested themselves, but that is not an excuse] and are a danger to society. I loose all respect for any religious leader [rabbaim]that cover for these monsters and make excuses for their behavior. This makes them just as guilty.
When your son comes home from chedar or yeshiva and says that the bus driver or his rebbe touched him where he shouldn’t have CALL THE POLICE. Same goes for the mikvah. How many more little and not so little boys have to be molested in the mikvah, before our leaders stand up and say enough!
The same goes for our daughters. Many years ago my daughter came home from school and said that the bus driver pinched her bottom. I called the school and reported it…..seems like many other parents did the same. We were informed a day later that the driver was fired and the police had been informed.
Molester MUST be taken off our streets, and sent to prison for a very long time. No more excuses from anyone…
I heard that in Chicago, there is some sort of board of external people (not tied to institutions) that has been quite effective in running people like this out of town. Of course with it being in the media and all, kids can make things up, and we really have to be careful both for the adult’s sake and the kid’s. Someone I know is a teacher and a student was mad at her and said “Im going to tell the principal that you hit me…” She immediately recorded the incident so that people would know that this kid could make things up. It’s really a catch 22 and Siyata Dishmaya is sorely needed as in all areas of life.
And I should add, many innocent adults were falsely convicted — and served very long jail sentences — after false molestation accusations were leveled against them by children, that were later discredited. And I’m not talking about in the religious world.
so right and MW,
This is not about false allegations. This is about coverups of known perpetrators.
see sharey halocho pg 641 responsa from reb elyashiv!!
so right: Thanks, and vi’chain li’mar!
popa_bar_abba: Yes, they are monsters. It may not be their fault, it may have been something that happened to them when they were, etc, etc. But they’re still monsters, and we still have to protect our kids from them.
charliehall: Perhaps those covering up are doing so because they do not think adequate proof has been brought to prove that the person in question is indeed a molester?
give your kids the safety speech and make sure you know they are not afraid to tell u anything
OK, don’t get me started but now that you have here it is. The therapists that planted such ideas happened many, many, moons ago and things like that don’t happen anymore so PLEASE do not use that as an excuse to NOT report any possible situation.
I was one of the original founders of the JBAC and am very proud of that! Kudos to the board for sponsoring the week of prevention and education starting off in Chicago and ending in BP! Kudos for all the Jewish organizations who have finally come on board!
Things everyone needs to know. The reason molestation has been hidden and covered up for so long IS because those, especially those who are Rabbonim and Chashuv people could get away with it because of their positions. Exactly because “who would believe a kid over them”. Think about it. And not just any kid because molesters groom kids especially kids that NO ONE WOULD BELIEVE. Perpetrators are very smart and cunning. They don’t go after just anyone. They will choose kids that are weak or whose parents are weak. You don’t hear of kids from prominent homes or from Choshuv homes. No one would dare go after such a child because then exactly “who would you believe ben Rabbi so and so or Rabbi so and so? Or they would go after a friend’s child because no one would believe that he would do that to his best friend.
Molesters are evil and they should NEVER be run out of town, they should be locked up period! If they are run out of town they take their evil disease and inclinations with them only to hurt other children in their next location. Stop sending them onto new unchartered grounds. Stop protecting your own children at the expense of other people’s children. END their REIGN OF TERROR for good. Pedophiles can not be cured unless they are stopped after their first offense. There is only hope if you stop them and treat them right away. And yes when we say that molesters were molested themselves, we don’t give that information as an excuse. We give that information as awareness to show how it is a CYCLE and if you don’t stop it, you are only going to watch it continue in the future.
If one pedophile has 100 victims each of those 100 victims can have 100 victims in the future which will breed 1,000 victims which can multiply to 100,000 victims. Get it? So why has this been going on for 40, 50 years even longer? Because our Rabbonim chose to look away. They thought kids are resilient and they would bounce back. They didn’t have the means or didn’t choose to study the long term effects of molestation on kids as they grew up and actually find out what happened to them.
Today we know what happens to them and aside from them repeating those actions to others, their lives are ruined in other ways, many turn into homosexuals, many never have normal relationships, many never get married, many go OTD, some commit suicide. Many never recover to be successful in education or other areas in their lives. NO Rabbis, they are not resilient when it comes to this, they do not bounce back and they do not recover! So there is no reason to cover up for your friends and peers. There is no reason to have more rachmonus for the perpetrators and their families. Have rachmonus on the victims and their families AND on the potential victims you can be saving from harm. If not you are literally leading thousands upon thousands of lambs to be slaughtered.
Why allow our yiddishe neshomas to be karbonos just for the honor of those who deserve none? Please, please report any and all suspected and known child abuse and/or molestation to the police department so they can investigate and handle it properly. Do not allow even one more yiddishe neshoma to fall prey to the evil and destruction of those who have this disease and refuse to seek treatment instead of act on its vile impulses. Teach your kids what to watch out for. Teach your kids to yell for help. Teach your kids to run and scream. Teach your kids to talk to you and tell you EVERYTHING especially when someone tells them its a secret or someone threatens to hurt you or a family member. Talk to your schools and camps. Make sure they agree to be mandatory reporters. Don’t take NO for an answer and if you suspect something don’t talk it over with a RAV go straight to the police or your doctor. Your doctor will take the decision out of your hands and do the right thing for your child. For more info go to the JBAC website.
Though there is such a thing as false “recovered memories,” I would hope and believe that most frum kids would not make up such a story.
Molesters should stop using the excuse that they themselves were molested as a child. It’s not an excuse. They should seek therapy, not other children.
Reminds me of a joke going around: someone asked a ger what made him become Jewish. He answered because he was molested as a child by one of his people.
People use this excuse all the time. They go OTD or do other bad stuff, but they have zero excuse.
We can all find excuses if we really want.
oomis, frum kids DON”T make up these stories they are too sheltered to know about this to begin with! If a boy talks to a girl he is going to gehenim remember? So do you think he would make this up and die right on the spot?????
Though there is such a thing as false “recovered memories,” I would hope and believe that most frum kids would not make up such a story.
oomis, It was induced in the children by adults. There is a reason the Torah doesn’t allow a court to accept the testimony of a minor.
smart cookie:
That is absurd.
poppa-
WHAT about my post is absurd?
i know of a posek who spoke about this painful topic. he said that Al Pi Torah we should kill a molester (like a moser, the story of R’ Elchonon Wasserman who killed a moser in the mikvah) because he causes people to die (commit suicide) nowadays, we don’t suggest that (the killer would be in trouble) but at least imprisonment for life. Halevai more people got up and spoke out against these molestors. This same posek said he got a shayla from someone who asked if he can help a molester who just got out of jail find a parnasa.
“what more “proof” do you need, that when a kid comes telling his parents (best possible scenario in worst possible situation, although mostly kids keep it in for a long while) – having NEVER seen a therapist in his life – and talking about things that he/she would never be able to “imagine/make up” UNLESS someone was MOLESTING him, or perhaps, grooming him for future abuse?”
The problem is, who said this really happened? Maybe the parents had an axe to grind, claimed the kid came crying to them, and then told the child to play along?
so right, you are SO WRONG on so many levels! Wise up and hope it never happens to anyone you know!
mw13, are you married? Do you have kids? Do you honestly think that parents put their own kids through this kind of hell? Are YOU nuts? Which koolaid have you been drinking?
I think that many people just have their heads in the sand. They believe that a Jewish person could never do such an evil thing. They don’t understand that everyone is, first of all a person and then, a member of a particular religion. Many Jews have what I call a “superiority” complex and believe that they are better than others and many those then believe that Jews are above committing crimes. I wish that they were but sadly that isn’t the case.
Where I live a Rabbi who had been here for many years was accused of molestation. The case is probably familiar to many of you as it was widely publicized. What made the problem even worse was the fact that a young man committed suicide and the Rabbi left town and went to a large school in a MAJOR city where he access to more children for well over 10 years. He was just fired from that institution a couple of years ago. He has never been legally punished for his crimes – so I guess we will have to wait for the afterlife for justice to be served.
MG, justice will be served. We all have to answer to the same maker after 120, and we all have to give an accounting. Hashem keeps very accurate records for those who hurt and for their accomplices. People who get in the way of justice and in the way of protecting innocent children will reap the fruit of their labor as well.
Innocent until proven guilty (both a Jewish and American concept) means we dont convict based on the press reports, hearsay, or he said/she said claims and ruin a persons life and reputation prior to proof has been fully made and a conviction obtained.
What’s not nice, we don’t show.
I know so-called “Rabbis”, who will cover for any major aveirah done in their community. Yes, people there is a lot you don’t know. It’s not just molestation. They do it because they are scared that it will make a chillul Hashem, so better to hide it. But in my opinion, this just condones the bad behavior and the perpetrators continue thinking you see -I fooled the world. Sometimes (Most of the time) they even fool themselves -that they aren’t doing anything wrong. So we have all our problems swept under the carpet!
“Innocent until proven guilty (both a Jewish and American concept) means we dont convict based on the press reports, hearsay, or he said/she said claims and ruin a persons life and reputation prior to proof has been fully made and a conviction obtained.”
Firstly it is legally PRESUMED innocent.” The distinction is important, because if the person was considered innocent, he or she would not be arrested in the first place. People are convicted on things other than concrete evidence ALL the time, make no mistake about that. They are also let go, despite overwhelming evidence (OJ, anyone?) to the contrary. As to reputation – once someone has been accused, his/her reputation has gone to the dogs, no matter what truth comes out in the end, especially where molestation is concerned. People usually believe the old adage that “where there’s smoke, there’s fire,” and iof it was not true this time, it probably was true at SOME time.
“oomis, frum kids DON”T make up these stories they are too sheltered to know about this to begin with! If a boy talks to a girl he is going to gehenim remember? So do you think he would make this up and die right on the spot????? “
FTR, only SOME frum kids are sheltered, Aries, and some are not. One little girl told me that someone touched her (body part) and it hurt her. She spoke matter-of-factly, and I became very upset until I found out from her mom (to whom I felt obligated to relay the information) that it was in fact her pediatrician, the mom was there, and the child had a UTI and was being examined. To a small child, there is a thin line between good and bad. They do not always understand the ramifications of what they say, or how important the WHOLE story is in context.
“People are convicted on things other than concrete evidence ALL the time, make no mistake about that.”
In goyishe courts. That is antithetical to Torah Judaism and its laws for its courts and evidence.
“As to reputation – once someone has been accused, his/her reputation has gone to the dogs, no matter what truth comes out in the end, especially where molestation is concerned. People usually believe the old adage that “where there’s smoke, there’s fire,” and iof it was not true this time, it probably was true at SOME time.”
Which is exactly why we must tread carefully before false accusations of this crime are hurled at the innocent.
“Innocent until proven guilty (both a Jewish and American concept) means we dont convict based on the press reports, hearsay, or he said/she said claims and ruin a persons life and reputation prior to proof has been fully made and a conviction obtained.”
I agree. There are also sites on the internet where you can accuse anyone you want of pedophilia and other perversions and it will be posted, no questions asked. Life and shiduchen are ruined forever; and virtually impossible to have it removed. However, where accusations can be proven, hang ’em high…no rachmanos.
smart cookie:
Sorry, I haven’t been online. What is absurd is that you are not recognizing something as being a mitigating factor, and largely, an excuse, despite overwhelming evidence.
The fact of the matter is that if you were a man(are you?) and had been molested, you would very likely be a molester now. So when you hear about a molestation, you should cry for the child, and you should be angry at society for not doing more to stop it. But then, you should cry for the molester, and say, “there, but for the grace of G-d, go I”.
so right, you are SO WRONG
Not fair! You can’t exploit his screenname to slur him. (I have been tempted to many times.) (And no calling me fat!)
Oomis and there is my point exactly. You spoke to the parent and heard the whole story. As the parent would ask questions and hear the whole story, and so do the police investigators before any accusations are hurled at the alleged perpetrator. But once they have a clear picture of what happened and feel that the child has spoken the truth, there is no turning back. Trust the child.
In goyishe courts. That is antithetical to Torah Judaism and its laws for its courts and evidence”
However, Dina d’malchusah, dina, and molestation is a very serious crime in the secular courts. Therefore, we cannot hide an accusation, just because the Torah standard of proof is higher. we still have to abide by the law of the land. (I am not suggesting turning someone over to the courts without proof that is incontrovertible).
When there is a conflict between the Torah laws and secular laws, Torah laws prevails over dina dmalchusa. (Otherwise you could discard most of the Torah.)
A child needs to be questioned in a way that does NOT “suggest” the truth to him/her. Some kids are too young to explain things, or even to understand what they are being asked. When my husband was a teacher in the PS system, an emotionally-disturbed child accused him of abuse (not molestation). She had climbed on a chair and was rocking back and forth and it tipped, all in the space of a second or two. He caught her just as she began to fall, and sat her down firmly in her seat with a stern admonition to NOT get up again. She told her parents that he shoved her down and hit her, and a report was filed against him at school.
VERY fortunately his assistants were present and witnessed the entire incident, and stated unequivocally that he had saved her from injury, and did not shove or harm her in any way. However, the otherclassmates, many of whom were non-verbal in this special education class, “stated” (meaning they were spoonfed the question and answer) that he HAD pushed her. I don’t know how kids who cannot speak at all could make such a verbal assertion, but that being said, the very next day, the extremely embarrassed parents who filed the complaint, acknowledged that their daughter finally admitted to them that she made the shoving story up, because she wanted to go to a different class where she had been the previous year, and thought if she said something bad about her present teacher, they would move her out.
Now, my husband was cleared of any scintilla of suspicion of wrongdoing, but it remained in his file that an accusation has been made, albeit that it was dismissed as without any foundation. Still, it is like sending something into Cyberspace -it is there forever.
You can’t maaser to the secular authorities anytime a child makes an unsubstantiated claim of abused, for the many reasons enumerated above by several people. For one, the authorities use secular non-Torah standards to determine guilt, resulting in many times — as previously demonstrated — false convictions.
We are a Torah society; not one of secular vengence.
80% of molesters have been molested themselves. Unfortunately, in my line of work, I’ve seen both sides of this horrible coin.
Children lie. Women in divorce proceedings lie. Over and over. It’s sad. But the Torah’s standard is golden; I refuse to destroy someone’s life on the say so of a child.
But I will install hidden cameras. I will profile the accused. I will do a background check (if I haven’t already, as a responsible employer). I will get the child a full examination by a rape nurse, and obtain whatever physical evidence I can.
Heck, I will ask for identifying marks and follow the guy into the mikvah ( I haven’t had the zechus, but I know someone who arranged a PI to do so).
90% of the time, you can get what you need that way. You are obligated to look. But if you don’t find – don’t you dare destroy the man’s life, wife , children, career and future. As oomis illustrated – how easy it is to destroy someone’s life. Think Salem Witch trials.
And of course, if you have two children – in different classes, or different schools, etc. (because kids unfortunately do work in groups some times) – or three – well, it’s time to get the wood burning. Or the molesters.
But it’s not enough – the mere say so of a child – to deliver him to the police, whom have vindicated the guilty and jailed innocent too many times.
And what about once I have evidence? 80& of molesters were molested themselves. I spoke to a Forensic Psychologist who described child molesters as addicts. Ohel even has an anonymous line for them to get help (treatment is available). Of course, the potential molester will have to go into another line of work. Like coal mining. In new zealand.
Once upon a time we had hoped that it would be enough to approach a molester and say “you will quit your job. you will leave the community. you will never teacher youngster again – or else”.
That didn’t work. Molesters lie. Molesters know the game, of statues of limitations and the fear of the victim to step forward, and the community humiliation that will be heaped upon him. Molesters are victims, just like abusive husband were abused. Our first concern is the wife. As Aries pointed out , though they were abused themselves – they are very cunning ( I suppose the word evil is appropriate as well).
But if we don’t have a child willing to testify – what exactly can we do? If we go public, we get busted for libel, because we don’t have legal proof. And if we get proof, a principal needs to weigh that against the destruction of his school. Ouch.
Ultimately though, those are risk you need to take – if you have proof. But it ain’t easy. What do I really wish for? For these cases to be dealt with quietly and permanently – that when an underground beis din has sufficient proof – to end the problem, by any means necessary. My grandfather A”H told me that’s what they did in Europe.
That’s why I think Agudah’s opposing the legislation removing the statue of limitations on institutional liability was a good idea. Because schools will be willing to come down on an abuser much quicker – if it doesn’t mean the legal destruction of the school.
Again, you can’t purely rely on a child. But a smart school – or even private PI firm – which works based on confidentiality and is not obligated to report it’s findings to the government – can usually figure out what really is going on.
Getting somebody’s internet records is relatively easy with a little know how. And trust me, if he did something to a child, you’ll see it in his internet usage. But you need correlation before you destroy someone.
Etc., etc. And from all of this you can see why the system doesn’t work so well. Yet.
We need to educate our schools on profiling, and investigation. And the guilty? Hang’em out to dry.
As far as using goyish courts, we are permitted to use to get something done that we can’t in Beis Din. Beis Din simply does not have the power to stop a molester. If we have the Halachic standard of proof that this man is a molester, the next stop is the DA’s office. The Halachic imperative is protect the child. From any definition, it is Nezek. Any Nezek, which does not cease – we may do whatever is necessary to stop the nezek (Avid Ish Din L’Atzmay). Nevermind if it reaches the stage of mazilin b’nafsho. Even without that, if Beis Din cannot stop it (the most they can do – is order him to stop it! and a Yareh Shamayim he’s not) – they we must get the police involved, and assist however we can.
But we should cry after we do. Because the Torah is commanding us to kill a sick yid. True, it is what we must do. But at least – let us cry afterward, for the victim hood that made him a monster, for the system that didn’t save him from his abuser.
Let us not say “no rachamus” – after we’ve protected his victim and future victims ( by all means necessary!).
Let us help his wife, children. Let us not make them community pariahs – for what have they done? And if he has truly done his time, and takes up gainful work in mining in New Zealand – let us let him rebuild his broken life and broken soul (though quietly watch him carefully).
Aries –
While I appreciate your passion for these children – I believe in the Halachic process. I don’t believe in Doctors. A doctor will shoot first and ask question later, because he’s obligated to report anything, and wants to cover himself.
I think the approach of running to the police first will destroy innocent lives – no less of a crime! I have a lot of firsthand experience – which I wish I didn’t have – ( as it seems, you do as well), the nitty gritty type, with victims and abusers – and the innocent. The “take the decision out of your hands” approach will hurt more then it save.
Though I agree with you that we need a better system them we have now (Chicago’s abuse Beis Din is a great idea) – your approach would have had oomis’s husband behind bars, had he not had others there.
In summary, we need an internal system with teeth.
And Rabbonim are not malachim. Maybe if there income wasn’t constantly based on the whims of the board members, they would be able to take more risks. If we want real independent Rabbonim, we need to make a system for such.
aries2756, let me take that idea to it’s logical conclusion:
aries2756, are you married? Do you have kids? Do you honestly think that parents could abuse their own kids, and put them through this kind of hell? Are YOU nuts? Which koolaid have you been drinking?
And yet, we’ve probably all heard stories of parents abusing their kids…
So, would you believe a story about a parent abusing a child? Stories that I’ve heard all too often, sometimes in first-person? Then you should have no problem believing that a parent would convince a child to pretend to have been abused, which is far less serious. Yes, we’re talking about the scum of the earth here… but unfortunately, they still exist.
I will do anything to protect my children, including being wary of any suspicions surrounding an accused molestor. Feel free to throw your children to “dan lekaf zechus.”
I’m not supporting “so right”.
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