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Avram – “(two of which were previously Orthodox shuls, and one still uses the term “modern Orthodox” instead of Open Orthodox)”
Maybe we should denounce MO because it could lead to OO? This is what happened with the Reform movement – first they were Orthodox, then Conservative, then Reform, then Reconstructive.
It’s better to be Tinuk Shnishbah – then all these things that aren’t Frum!
ZD, you are still not understanding the purpose of the kol korei.
Avram: Baruch Hashem there are very few communities (really nowhere else) that have had OO try to take over like in the Silver Spring/DC area. And the big Shul went with a YU Rabbi B”H and OO is probably slowly losing the fight there.
Joseph: I don’t need to say anything. Look at the Chazon Ish on the beginning of Chullin.
The Chazon Ish’s point vis-a-vis the Kusim isn’t relevant to the Open Orthodox.
the big Shul went with a YU Rabbi B”H and OO is probably slowly losing the fight there.
See that, ZD, the kol korei is working already! 😉
Joseph: Maybe you should look up the Chazon Ish before you say that.
“This is what happened with the Reform movement – first they were Orthodox, then Conservative, then Reform, then Reconstructive.”
Just a point of historical correctness. Reform came first then Conservative was a breakaway from them. I believe the various others (and there are some weird ones out there) broke off of conservative.
Mammale;
You missed my point, its not about if OO is Kosher, Its not kosher. We are debating the proper way to fight it. We are debating if you fight it by condeming it or showing as positive frumkite.
The Kol Korea supporters seem to think that such a document will stop OO, it wont and likely will backfire. While you will never get 100% of people to agree, positive statments will get more people to your side than negative statements will
I will just give the following example,
2 rabbis are applying for a Rabbinate job, One is OO and one is a YU Rabbi.
You can say the OO candidate is an Apikoras and a Koifer and denigirate him and say he really isnt orthodox
OR
You can say how great the YU candidate is, He is more qualified. Got a degree in psychology , has a great personality and will get more people to come join the Shul
People will like the YU candidate and he will get the job with a positive message , nobody was degenerated and you get the results you want without denegrating anyone
“2 rabbis are applying for a Rabbinate job, One is OO and one is a YU Rabbi”
Good example. The Kol Korei is just what is needed to deal with such a case. The synagogue membership will now know that if they are Orthodox, the YCT candidate is not at all a viable candidate. A perfect way to make an objective, absolute decision.
On the other hand, if you say the YU guy is a nice fine person, that does not guarantee that the synagogue members are not charmed by the YCT candidate, because as we all know they are trained, slick, snake oil salesmen.
You have shown exactly why such a Kol Korei is helpful and needed.
zahavasdad,
You can say how great the YU candidate is, He is more qualified. Got a degree in psychology , has a great personality and will get more people to come join the Shul
The thing is, both candidates may come off as qualified. Both may have degrees in psychology. Both may have great personalities, and both may cause 3,000 new families to apply for shul membership the minute after the first sermon. Both may have saved a kitty on the way to the interview. But one will preserve the Orthodoxy of the shul, and the other one will not. If that is important to the people in the shul, then they need to know. I think that is the point of the kol korei.
ZD – keeping the Torah is not contingent on winning popularity contests. See, I explained it without degrading you. Does that mean you are going to come around?
We are debating if you fight it by condeming it or showing as positive frumkite.
What’s wrong with doing both?
“I will just give the following example,
2 rabbis are applying for a Rabbinate job, One is OO and one is a YU Rabbi.”
As mentioned before, a good friend of mine went to YCT, so I have a little inside knowledge.
One of the goals of YCT was to produce more Avi Wiess’s and spread the gospel. They have classes with professional speech coaches. I would guess that they would be more dynamic than a guy who spent more time learning real sugyas.
DY
You have to know who your audience is,
It can be taken different ways by different people and some might take this as interference in their internal affairs. People are assuming that places that would consider hiring a YCT clergyperson would obey the Moetzes after such a decree, which in most if not all circumstances is not the case.
A YU Simcha is more comprehensive than most, I have friends who went ther. Not only do they teach public speaking, they teach them psyhchology and other skills needed to council people
They will also have to consider that nobody who follows the Moetzes will join or even daven there.
More importantly, even people who don’t automatically follow the Moetzes might realize that they’re correct here.
Even more importantly, this needed to be done for bigger reasons than the scenario you describe.
Can everyone now say outloud that OO founder and leader Avi Weiss is not frum?
It can be taken different ways by different people and some might take this as interference in their internal affairs. People are assuming that places that would consider hiring a YCT clergyperson would obey the Moetzes after such a decree, which in most if not all circumstances is not the case.
the point is not if they will obey the moetzes or not, it’s that now this was brought out to the forefront, while beforehand shuls looking for a rabbi would not even think twice about an OO grad, now they will think twice and perhaps analyze the hashkafic ideals of the rabbi
A YU Simcha is more comprehensive than most, I have friends who went there. Not only do they teach public speaking, they teach them psychology and other skills needed to council people
not trying to nitpick, but since when does public speaking and psychology make a smicha more comprehensive? do you mean it makes them a better rabbi? thats possible
ZD: “People are assuming that places that would consider hiring a YCT clergyperson would obey the Moetzes after such a decree, which in most if not all circumstances is not the case.”
As Yidden we believe that EVERY SINGLE NEFESH is precious, and likened to an entire world. So even if your point is true, on the off chance that ONE SHUL OF YIDDEN can be saved from straying the Kol Korah was more than worth it.
As the Satmar Rebbe zt”l used to say “men darf tun, nisht auftun”, or since you prefer Hebrew, as the Mishna in Pirkei Avos states ??? ???? ?????? ?????? we show Hashem we tried and don’t worry about completion. Shleimus is Hashem’s domain.
“And if it hurts, one cries out” no Cheshbonos necessary.
Moreover, mussar in general is said not just for the recipient, but so that we ourselves should internalize the message “this is not okay”. ( I think I heard it about protesting against shopkeepers that were mechalell Shabbos here in the US, even though most likely nothing will be accomplished).
And that’s the main reason here: to fortify our Machne and our future generations. By having it in writing as a Kol Korah we strengthen the message for those that do care about Yiddishkeit. “And we choose life”.
And that’s the main reason here: to fortify our Machne and our future generations
Correct.
Interesting article from Bloomberg on the statements of the Agudah and the RCA, and their respective purposes:
The RCA knows that some moderate or liberal Orthodox institutions have been hiring women to give sermons, provide rabbinic legal advice and teach students. The goal of its resolution is to try to reverse or hold back this process of gradual normalization.
The sociological consequences of this move matter. The goal of open Orthodoxy is precisely to find space in the limited pluralism of Orthodox belief and practice — to achieve a state of play where Orthodox Jews could self-define as ultra-Orthodox, modern Orthodox or open Orthodox. Open Orthodoxy self-consciously wants to avoid becoming a separate movement, the better to achieve incremental change toward equality for women.
The efforts at line-drawing show that the other branches of Orthodoxy are worried. The modern Orthodox, in particular, find themselves caught between the egalitarianism and feminism that are distinctly modern, and the unapologetic position of ultra-Orthodoxy, with its clearly separate spheres for men and women.
BTW, did anybody actually answer the question in the OP? What is the position of the YU/MO Rabbonim on OO?
BTW, did anybody actually answer the question in the OP? What is the position of the YU/MO Rabbonim on OO?
You mean like the RCA?
I understand from all the comments that the leaders are against it and it’s not traditional, but does anyone think there’s anything inherently wrong with having a female Rav? If so, what? Why can’t a woman speak Torah from the bimah? Personally, this reminds me of Jackie Robinson and baseball. At first everyone said black people would ruin baseball, but then everyone just shrugged and accepted it.
Oot for life -“Just a point of historical correctness. Reform came first then Conservative was a breakaway from them. I believe the various others (and there are some weird ones out there) broke off of conservative”
That was then, when people had guilty feelings for going off the Derech. Nowadays they only go downwards!
I know of a MO Shul in the West Side where they allow a Woman’s Minyun.
but does anyone think there’s anything inherently wrong with having a female Rav? If so, what? Why can’t a woman speak Torah from the bimah? Personally, this reminds me of Jackie Robinson and baseball. At first everyone said black people would ruin baseball, but then everyone just shrugged and accepted it.
yeah, i do,and so does halacha. but since female rabanim aren’t the reason for the kol korei , but the unfortunate slide of a group into apikorsus.
A statement by the Moetzes is incomparable to a statement by the RCA. The Moetzes is constituted by some of the greatest tzadikim and gedolim of our dor. It is not a group of any or all rabbis, but rather only of the greatest. And they work on consensus.
OTOH, an RCA statement is simply a majority vote of all $350 (or whatever) annual dues-paying member rabbis. And membership constitutes from the far-left (such as Avi Weiss until recently when he elected to not renew his membership) through the MO-right. And while they surely have some big talmidei chachomim, most voting members are not gedolim but rather far flung pulpit rabbis and even people working in secular fields that have smicha. And they can outvote the gedolim.
BTW, did anybody actually answer the question in the OP?
Yes, Sam did.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/moetzes-denounces-open-orthodoxy#post-586568
“Can everyone now say outloud that OO founder and leader Avi Weiss is not frum?”
To say that would be motzi shem ra. Even his most bitter opponents had to admit that he is a kosher eid.
“2 rabbis are applying for a Rabbinate job, One is OO and one is a YU Rabbi”
No such shul cares what AI says.
“No such shul cares what AI says.”
Some shuls DO care that one of the two candidates has been deemed to be non-Orthodox and a non-Torah Jew by many of the greatest rabbis of the generation. Even if they don’t necessarily follow those great rabbis derech.
I am not sure that a place that would consider hiring a YCT graduate really cares what the Novominsker Rebbe says (one of the signers) or for that matter even knows who the Novominsker Rebbe is.
“To say that would be motzi shem ra. Even his most bitter opponents had to admit that he is a kosher eid.”
That is untrue. I know that many who are far less than his “most bitter opponent” who would not drink his wine nor trust anything he says, let alone consider him a kosher eid. And that includes many RCA members.
“I am not sure that a place that would consider hiring a YCT graduate really cares what the Novominsker Rebbe says (one of the signers) or for that matter even knows who the Novominsker Rebbe is”
Are you inferring that thos who might be on a rabbinic search committee are unaware of any number of the gedolim? And would not care who they are? Even the horrible radically anti religious, anti Israel publication that Avi Weiss and his band of fools write to, The Forward, acknowledged a number of the members as important Rabbis. Much to its own chagrin. You are being Motzei Shem ra on those Shuls, or they too have left Orthodoxy.
The fact that the RCA had to release its statement is proof how much the OO illness is infecting Orthodoxy and why the Moetzes had to inform everyone that the YCT, IRF and its rabbits are not practicing Torah yiddishkeit, by any definition and is clear, they are not trustworthy for kashrut, eidut, their Beirut is not a geirut and ifotunately that are going to create further mamzeirim with their passul, gittin and their unsubstantiated hetteirim for married women to cohabit with other men.
I find it disturbing that people who claim they are orthodox can possibly support such reshoim.
Some have mentioned ‘Tinok Shenishbah’. This terminology ????? ?’ ??? -captive- started being used at the time of the cantonists. When the they literally kidnapped children even as young as 5/6 off the street, fed them treif, and made them serve in the army. They were FORCED away from yiddishkeit.
After WWII there were a lot of Yisomim for whom the terminology was also used. Again in the same context. They were young and FORCEFULLY torn from their yiddishkeit. Even one might use it on the Yaldie Teheran. When they came to E”Y were FORCEFULLY stripped of their Yiddishkeit. But that is totally not applicable to any American Jew.
This Kol Korei is not telling anybody what to do. It is just saying don’t start renaming things (i.e. calling a chimp a human). Don’t steal anybody’s identity.
Orthodox means sticking to the old – NOT starting something new.
Nobody is trying to make BTs with this. It is just a warning:” That way leads to quicksand”.
The profreikeit posters are (perhaps deliberately) missing the point. Not for a second does AI imagine that writing a letter is going to make the OO or even the MO change their ways, so enough with the straw men.
I assure you there are places that do not follow the Agudah but care if Agudah rabbonim consider a person to be non-Orthodox and a non-Torah Jews. They will say Hallel on Yom HaAtzmut, march in the Israel Day Parade, shake hands with women, have only a small mechitza, etc. But if one candidate rabbi is recognized as being Orthodox even by the Agudah rabbonim while the other candidate is considered to be non-Orthodox by a large portion of Orthodoxy, that will be the dealbreaker for some such synagogues.
Lav davka, there will still be some synagogues that still hire OO. But some even left-wing synagogues will now not consider an OO candidate.
I am not sure that a place that would consider hiring a YCT graduate really cares what the Novominsker Rebbe says
Again, that is not the primary reason (if it was even considered at all) for the kol korei.
I wonder if R Simcha Krauss and the IBD will look at wedding videos and note that the eidim were OO and that as a heter for an agunah by positing that the ??? ??????? were not kosher.
I would find that media splash informative.
WWAWD?
our thread
Wow. How many names did you post under in that thread?
“Can everyone now say outloud that OO founder and leader Avi Weiss is not frum?”
To say that would be motzi shem ra. Even his most bitter opponents had to admit that he is a kosher eid.
You’ve argued that before, and I have responded before that I doubt I am his most bitter opponent, and I do not admit he is a kosher eid.
Are you referring to a specific conversation or encounter when you claim that?
charliehall:
“Can everyone now say outloud that OO founder and leader Avi Weiss is not frum?”
To say that would be motzi shem ra. Even his most bitter opponents had to admit that he is a kosher eid.
Excerpts from an article by R’ Mordechai Willig titled Trampled Laws (http://www.torahweb.org/torah/2015/parsha/rwil_ekev.html):
“Rav Moshe continued to say that no battle, even one supported by the entire world, can succeed in changing the Torah, and women who fight to change the Torah’s eternal and immutable laws are heretics. If a woman wears talis or tefillin as a complaint against Hashem and His Torah it is prohibited as heresy since she thinks that it is possible to change Torah law… The movement to which Rav Moshe refers, now known as feminism or egalitarianism, continues to infiltrate Orthodox Judaism. The recent ordination of women is but one example. Unfortunately this practice is viewed by at least one of its proponents as part of an attempt to change Torah laws and ideas (see Crosscurrents July 29, 2015), precisely the heresy that Rav Moshe warned against.”
For a more in-depth look at apikorsos in Open-Orthodox theology, I suggest reading an excellent article titled “Open Orthodoxy: Outright Heresy and the Orthodox Rebirth of the Conservative Movement” by Rabbi Avrohom Gordimer.
Is it not possible for his most bitter opponents to admit he is a kosher eid while the less bitter don’t?
Joseph – did you think I was infringing on your IP? If ever the term applied, it is now. Baruch shekivanta.
Nu, nu.
Vienna,
I understand from all the comments that the leaders are against it and it’s not traditional,
As skripka noted above, the ordination of women is not the only issue that led to the kol korei.
but does anyone think there’s anything inherently wrong with having a female Rav? If so, what? Why can’t a woman speak Torah from the bimah?
If the primary role of a rabbi was to speak Torah from the bimah, then assuming there was a way around any issues of tznius, perhaps there wouldn’t be any further serious problems with a woman being a rabbi. Orthodox women give lectures and shiurim all of the time. The thing is, that’s not the main purpose of a rabbi.
Perhaps the most important role of a rabbi is to serve as a dayan: a judge who sits as part of a beis din to rule on matters of halacha. According to halacha, a dayan must be male, so to appoint a woman as a rabbi doesn’t really make sense. So when Open Orthodoxy ordains women, they are doing either or both of the following: 1. Altering halacha to permit women to be judges, and/or 2. Altering what a rabbi is. From an Orthodox standpoint, where halacha is our lifeblood, and the arbiters of halacha are rabbis, such actions are regarded as highly dangerous.
Personally, this reminds me of Jackie Robinson and baseball. At first everyone said black people would ruin baseball, but then everyone just shrugged and accepted it.
I think the comparison of Orthodox Jewish viewpoints to racist ones is fallacious and offensive.
but does anyone think there’s anything inherently wrong with having a female Rav? If so, what?
The Shulchan Oruch, in Choshen Mishpat 7,4, succinctly states:
??? ????? ????
In the Bais Yosef he brings as his source three different Gemorahs that all say some variation of:
??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????
Also see the Rambam, (brought down li’halacha by the Aruch HaShulchan CM 7, 4 and the Igros Moshe YD Chelek 2 Siman 45) who writes in Hilchos Melachim 1,5:
??? ??????? ??? ?????? ????? (??? ????) ???? ??? ??? ????. ??? ?? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???
As has been pointed out numerous times, appointing female clergy is far from the only issue with so-called Open Orthodoxy. But I do think it is telling that their most visible departure from tradition is so obviously against Halacha.
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