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many things people say are Halchas are actually Chumras or hashkafas
For example?
And vice versa.
For example?
Gavra
All you have proved is that yaft elokim layefes applies to the greek language
which is the truth
which is why there is an opinion that a sefer torah can be written in greek.
It does not apply to any other cultural aspect. The fact that culture always seeps into our religion is something to be lamented, not embraced
Just a few examples……
many things people say are Halchas are actually Chumras or hashkafas
For example? – 4 inches below the knee, no woman’s pictures, a black fedora for davening
And vice versa.
For example? – Paying tuition, not cheating the government, Z’manim for davening and Krias Shema, Negiah, Hilchos Tzedaka
mentsch1 – Statements with no proof, and no S’varah why the Chiluk is Mechalek. I will assume that you have none.
many things people say are Halchas are actually Chumras or hashkafas
For example?
Mode of Dress or Language spoken.
It is not a HALACHA to speak Yiddish over a “Goyish” Language or its not an averirah to dress western style (Assuming tzniut isnt a concern)
Gavra, 4″ is a good example. No pictures is pretty iffy, and black fediras is an outright straw man.
ZD, both straw men. Nobody I know thinks those are halachah (depending on what mode of dress you mean).
Tuition and cheating, as the counter examples, are also straw men.
Sorry Gavra
the burden of proof is on you
There is no Hashkafic evidence that embracing a foreign culture is a good thing, all statements of chazal say the opposite. Feel free to bring some proof.
Yaft elokim is an interesting statement that does require explanation. But the explanation is always a narrow interpretation such as language.
Another narrow interpretation (believe its the rambam, but could be mistaken)is that it simply means that greek philosophy was a better alternative for the goyim than what they had previously (avodah zora).
the whole idea of Chukas HaGoyim. There certanly is a Halacha not to follow the ways of the Goyim, however the line where we are allowed to follow the Goyim straddles the dividing line.
We are speaking mostly English here which is Chukas Hagoyim. many forbid things like Sports, Music taken from Non-jewish sources, Many frown upon non-jewish foods. Obviously we do things that are Chukas Hagoyim like driving a Car or using a Telephone
gavra at work
‘ paying tuition etc…’ now I see where you come from. When you don’t have any intelligent retort you ….
Those crimes you mention are they officially sanctioned al pi torah in those communities you so hate? As opposed to the kules that is official sanctioned by you. By the way knees should be covered is not chumreh….’shoik baisha erva’. By the way, what is the purpose to uncover above knee…?
Zahavasdad
That is some mental leap
It would seem that you are implying that because we drive cars then we can also do cultural things like listen to goyish music
If I am understanding you correctly than you are proving my point about rationalization
There is no Hashkafic evidence that embracing a foreign culture is a good thing,
Straw man. Go back to the original statement, then my question.
When I was referring to goyish music, I was referring to people who take non-jewish music and “make it kosher”
And I have heard ‘Dvar Torahs” that claim that eating “Goyish Foods” even when kosher Damages your neshama
DY & Joe: I didn’t realize you would be that strict with what is termed “Halacha”. I’ll agree with tuition & cheating, but disagree with the black fedoras. There have been many threads started arguing that black fedoras are absolute Halacha (usually quoting the Mishna Berurah), but when discussion begins with a reasonable individual (such as we have had, DY), the reasonable individual admits that black fedoras are not Halacha. Unreasonable individuals stick to their guns at all costs.
How about the other three (Zmanim, Negiah and Tzedaka)?
many forbid things like Sports, Music taken from Non-jewish sources, Many frown upon non-jewish foods.
Do many say they are literally forbidden, or object on hashkafic grounds?
By the way knees should be covered is not chumreh….
He didn’t say knees covered, he said four inches.
any group with the word “movement” is apikorsus: What does ,”movement” mean?
Such as Rav Yisroel Salanter’s “Mussar Movement”?
ZD – agree with DY on this one. Chassidim use mode of dress as a way to separate from others (both halacha following Jews and not), not as a specific “Halacha”.
And I have heard ‘Dvar Torahs” that claim that eating “Goyish Foods” even when kosher Damages your neshama
Source? Besides, what is a Goyish food? Did the priest/Imam make a blessing on it before it was prepared?
If the 3 oaths are Halacha or Hashkafa or not even relevant anymore
Gavra, they didn’t literally mean black fedoras. Wearing a hat is a reasonable discussion, but nobody really thinks it can’t be an up hat. 😉
Negiah is probably unfortunately true for many, I don’t know about zmanim and tzeddakah, can you be more specific?
I think the frummer MO people such as Sam and DaMoshe would say that negiah is not sanctioned in any official way, it’s just individuals.
Fedoras are either Chukas HaGoyim or Beged Isha.
Negiah is probably unfortunately true for many, I don’t know about zmanim and tzeddakah, can you be more specific?
Zmanim: The unfortunate lack of respect for Zman Tefilah, both from the Chassidim and the 10:00 Shachris crowd during Bein Hazmanim.
Tzeddakah – The much ignored Halachos of Kedimah brought in Shulchan Aruch. Have you (not personally, but the one ignoring the Halacha) ever asked your Rov to which types of organization/person you should be giving the bulk of your funds (instead of Kupat Hair (for curing MPB) or other Tzedakos with glossy ads or huge auctions)?
You can modify to “Fedora or Homburg”.
edited
ZD, what about it? So there’s a difference of opinion.
Besides, what is a Goyish food?
Food we dont have a “Mesorah” to eat, not because of kashruth issues, but because it wasnt eaten in Europe by our ancestors.
Nobody says it’s assur, so what’s your point?
Food we dont have a “Mesorah” to eat, not because of kashruth issues, but because it wasnt eaten in Europe by our ancestors.
Like potatoes and quinoa?
Gavra, I don’t think zmanim or tzeddakah are examples of people thinking or saying it’s just a chumra.
Modifying to add homburg misses the point. Nobody thinks halachah specifies a specific type or types of hat.
Excuse. Computer froze last post
gavre and friends,
‘Talmud hoya shematahare es hashrotzim b’150 tamim’ Yidishkeit was perpetuated not from S’U but from ‘al titosh toras imaycha…’ I do because thats how my father , grandfather etc etc. and that’s why my children, grandchildren and b’h great grandchildren look. As opposed to your derech . Your grandparents or somewhere down the line were like us. Then along came MO to accomodate or save (which was necessary then…)then centrist then OO (kofim gemurim, no matter which way you put it.Like, would the holy chasam soifer, igros moshe, noda b’yehuda etc etc allow a Baptist choir into the holy shul??!and a myriad other things
Am I the only one who can’t make out shimen’s last post?
Am I the only one who can’t make out shimen’s last post?
I’ve already given up earlier in the thread, and just don’t bother trying. Like I said earlier after I tried the first time, his posts prove the necessity of teaching English writing classes in school.
Gavra, I don’t think zmanim or tzeddakah are examples of people thinking or saying it’s just a chumra.
No, worse, they are examples of Halachos that are outright ignored.
Point on the black hat. However, it is difficult to reconcile with those who do believe that hat-wearing is Halacha (of which there are many, as we have had here in the CR in the past). I believe the ridiculousness of that Shittah was proven here.
DY, this is my best rendition:
‘Talmud hoya shematahare es hashrotzim b’150 tamim’. Yidishkeit was perpetuated not from Shulchan Urach but from ‘al titosh toras imaycha…’ I dress as I do because thats how my father, grandfather, etc. etc. did. And that’s why my children, grandchildren and b’h great grandchildren dress the same. As opposed to your derech of changing. Your grandparents or somewhere earlier down the line were like us. Then along came MO to accomodate or save (which was necessary then…), then centrist, then OO (kofim gemutim, no matter which way you put it.) Would the holy Chasam Soifer, Igros Moshe, Noda B’Yehuda etc. etc. allow a Baptist minister in the beis medrash?)
Would the holy Chasam Soifer, Igros Moshe, Noda B’Yehuda etc. etc. allow a Baptist minister in the beis medrash?
Didn’t the church used to force us to have have the priest darshan in shul? I think so.
No, worse, they are examples of Halachos that are outright ignored.
That wasn’t the question.
I believe the ridiculousness of that Shittah was proven here.
I disagree.
dass yochid
we’ll what we mean is that it should be long enough so when you sit it should be covered.
Note: Ladies get out of car many times are uncovered way above are macshil es hurabim.( in shmrei torah unitzvos language ‘chote umachte es hurabim,) Please don’t advise not to look because its too late.
No, worse, they are examples of Halachos that are outright ignored.
That wasn’t the question.
Fair for Tzedaka, but after rethinking Zmanim, I would argue that Yeshiva Bochrim who daven at 10:00 really believe that Zman is a Chumrah that they have to keep when in Yeshiva, but if they sleep late, no big deal.
I believe the ridiculousness of that Shittah was proven here.
I disagree.
For a different thread.
Still, we are left with “four inches” from one side, and Negiyah from the other. The difference between the two (as you pointed out earlier) is that many learned people think 4 inches is real Halacha, while Negiyah is more of an “Omer Muttar” type which knowledgeable people are well aware of the Issur.
Anyone else want to add to the list?
ZD – Shloshe Shevuos is a question of application. No one holds they are a Chumrah.
Would the holy Chasam Soifer, Igros Moshe, Noda B’Yehuda etc. etc. allow a Baptist minister in the beis medrash?
What does he have against Baptist over Catholics, Buddhists or anyone else? 🙂
sd
Goyishe foods?
see sheloh hakodesh(means anything to you?)vol 5 daf 170 right column regarding ‘ben soror umoreh’ (parshes shoftim)
the Chasam Sofer Banned drashas in any language except yiddish
joseph
Please, don’t add ‘dress’ . I mean EVERYTHING. The holy reb arele of belz, when he quoted a passuk in torah,used to say ‘de heilige tatte hot gezugt es shtayed in the toireh…’ I think reb joseph, you are the only one who will understand the teefe kavanah of this. Also , you left out (CHANGED what I wrote)most important. clergy Weiss had a Baptist church choir in his temple on Martin Luther Kings birthday. Bah the way i’m not here to pass spellin’ etc etc bee.Be discretionary when reading my posts. don’t like de spell or…just skip reading my posts
I don’t think anyone thinks 4″ is literal halacha, but rather people realize it needs to be longer than just the knee since it needs to cover the knee when sitting, getting out of a car, etc. (as shimen pointed out). And 4″ is a reasonable number to cover most common scenarios (though even 4″ doesn’t cover all situations.)
DY: I think the Meshaneh Halachos says that eating Chinese food is Assur because it’s “Goyish”.
Zahavasdad, not even Ladino? Lett he dead language (if it is a language) rest in peace (or, to be more exact, pieces considering the different dialects).
Proper Spelling , grammar and Syntax is important so people can read and understand posts (Ill admit to being guilty of breaking this sometimes too)
Joseph – Not what the girls schools teach.
I don’t think anyone thinks 4″ is literal halacha
Unfortunately, that’s not true.
Sam, precise source, please?
ZD, lol.
Avi: There are hundreds of thousands (and growing rapidly) who speak the language as their first language. Very very far from dead.
DY
I actually spell fairly decently, but I type so fast, sometimes I type faster than i can spell and am prone to typos
zd
just don’t have the patience to correct, check. I b4 e xcept after c, capitals etc…as long as one gets the thought. There’s a Chasam Soifer vort on this…too long
DY – I think that “Meshaneh Halachos” – changer of halacha is meant to be a joke?
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