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When HIR lets a woman lead Kabbalas Shabbos they do so because they don’t think they have stopped observing halacha.
True. They probably have not broken any halacha.
But, what they have done is just as bad. Because for thousands of years we didn’t have women leading kabbalas shabbos.
Why? Because it is not kavod to the tzibbur, and is not tznius.
Along comes Mr. Weiss and decides that there is no reason not to, the rabbonim for thousands of years were wrong, and probably said what they said because they were bigoted.
So like I say, it is ok to have the kasha, but it is not ok to conclude that you are correct. That is just arrogant.
And no, this is not like wearing white shirts and black pants.
Furthermore, the example PY gives about genocide of amalek is certainly halacha. To have a kasha on that, and decide it is not what you will do, is to be a mumar.
feif- i answered that above. anyway NK thinks theyre frummer, any speaking out against them would be why theyre not frummer. weiss’ thing isnt a frummer issue; its ” lets push the envelope to the very brink (or over?) what MO will accept cuz we think its right.” not so much shaychis. why doesnt everyone speak out against everyone else they dont hold of? and again ayin li’ail.
Feif: The danger of chareidim following NK off the cliff is infinitesimal compared to the danger of MO following Avi Weiss. The chareidi rabbis were merely yotzei ?????? ????? ??’ ???????. None of them thinks their followers will turn NK.
Because for thousands of years we didn’t have women leading kabbalas shabbos.
Sure hope not! New Age Kabbalist prayer hasn’t been around close to that long, maybe 4-5 hundred years. I would argue the larger issue is having women at the pulpit! They should be barefoot in the kitchen, where they belong.
LOL
Feif: The danger of chareidim following NK off the cliff is infinitesimal compared to the danger of MO following Avi Weiss.
Except MO are not following Avi Weiss,
How many Young Israels or O-U affiliated Synangouges have a YCT graduate as Rabbi (as opposed to Y-U)
id propose that no-one who had giluy eliyahu allowed women to lead KS. you shouldnt either.
“Except MO are not following Avi Weiss.”
Yet.
I wouldn’t feel comfortable in a shul where women are leading kabalas shabbos. I’d feel a lot less comfortable saying that a breach of tznius or kavod hatzibur is worse than a breach of halacha.
In any event, I think it’s completely within reason for the RCA to take the position that they will not allow members to allow their sense of morality determine halacha but will allow it to help them determine what is kavod hatzibur.
I wouldn’t feel comfortable in a shul where women are leading kabalas shabbos. I’d feel a lot less comfortable saying that a breach of tznius or kavod hatzibur is worse than a breach of halacha.
You’d be correct. A breach of halacha is much worse.
But my problem is not the breach of tznius. My problem is the shitta that he has the ability and right to decide that the rabbonim of thousands of years were wrong about something. He is making up his own religion.
Jothar,
As an MO, I’m pretty sure I can tell you you’re missing the point. There’s no sympathy for Avi Weiss in the MO community and certainly in the MO Rabbinic community (i.e. the people who could split the RCA). What there is is a strong sense among the left wing laity that Rabbinic leadership should be doing something and isn’t. If I were to guess, I’d say the future isn’t a split in the RCA, it’s the breakup of some of the larger RCA shuls, with some of that membership forming congregations that would not be considered Orthodox.
I have no more insight here than anyone else except that he has no influence in my neighborhood (Which frankly isnt exactly a MO neighborhood).
I can only guess (This is MY THEORY not discussed with anyone else) the only reason Avi Weiss has not already been kicked out of the RCA is because some feel the damage might be greater.
By keeping him him, they can put at least some checks on him , if they kick him out he becomes a Martyr and makes his own organization stronger and then there is no way to stop him
He DID back off from the Rabbah due to pressure from the RCA, if he is on his own he would not have to back off and could ordain as many Rabbah as his likes, Being part of the RCA they can pressure him to stop some of his other “innovations” but on his own they cant.
Popa, again, I’m pretty sure R’ Weiss (certainly Professor Sperber) wouldn’t say what you’re saying they say. I think his position is that any of the Rabbonim who felt that women leading tefilos was a problem of kavod hatzibur would not say that in modern day America. The idea that they judge rabbonim of previous generations is just wrong as far as I know.
zdad-thats a treif hashkafa. we dont appease people to keep tabs on them. if theyre bad al pi torah theyre gone. thats it. fait accompli.
I think his position is that any of the Rabbonim who felt that women leading tefilos was a problem of kavod hatzibur would not say that in modern day America. The idea that they judge rabbonim of previous generations is just wrong as far as I know.
Really? You believe that?
Also, I am correct. I read an article by Saul Berman who is on staff at YCT, where he basically says that the Torah is unethical, but the rabbis perfected it. And that is what they are doing with women.
His example is the death penalty, which he says the rabbis perfected by getting rid of.
Sounds like kefira to me.
zdad-thats a treif hashkafa. we dont appease people to keep tabs on them. if theyre bad al pi torah theyre gone. thats it. fait accompli.
One I said it was my own theory, but lets say you throw him out and then his new organization becomes his seat of power, he then can do ALOT more damage. While a member of the RCA he cannot split the organization and he must obey their rules. Once he leaves he can take shuls with him and make his own rules.
The Rabbi Marc Angel theory I can belive, thats who is really protecting him. They both founded the IRF (Which Ive never heard of until yesterday) and I saw the website.
It easy to say throw him out, but you have to accept the consequences. Do you really think he would go quietly?
One of Avi Weiss’s main issues is that he denies the concept of Gedolei Hador.
One of Avi Weiss’s main issues is that he denies the concept of Gedolei Hador.
Well, I should hope he does. If he doesn’t respect the gedolim of 1000 years ago, it would be pretty weird for him to respect the gedolim today.
His religion is literally ??? ???? ?????? ????. And if there is a conflict with halacha or hashkafa, you just say that today it is different. And if there is a conflict with today’s poskim, you just say “I’m also a rabbi”.
And since he ordains am haaratzim, anyone is a rabbi.
Can you name the Gadol of 1000 years ago R’ Weiss doesn’t respect? And are we back to suggesting that he acts in conflict with halacha? I thought we agreed he didn’t (or at least didn’t think he did).
mosheemes:
Look, you are not making the same argument as PY was. PY was applying this even to the death penalty, which is halacha.
I am not well versed in all the things he applies this to.
Ok, now, I am not talking about halacha, I am talking about hashkafa. I am saying he doesn’t respect the opinion of all the gedolim since moshe rabeinu who did not appoint women to positions of rabbinic leadership except in extreme, once in a thousand years, situations. The am haaratzos he produces, are not of the caliber of devora eishes lapidos.
And while kabbalos shabbos may be only a few hundred years old, pesukei dzimra is much older, and we never had women leading that also.
So you say he answers that the world changed.
I don’t believe that. I don’t believe he thinks that. I think he is using it as an excuse.
And I don’t believe his ideas are limited to innocuous things like leading kabbalas shabbos. The Saul Berman article I referenced, is pure kefira and disrespects every gadol in history, and also Hashem. It argues that the torah is imperfect and that until now we were all bigots but he has not fixed it.
We should also at some point discuss the fact that he thinks it is ok to ordain am haaratzim. His course of study is way shorter and less torah than the shortest orthodox program.
The biggest joke is his women rabbas. If they want to invent a new feminist term, they should call themselves “Am Haaratzas”.
Not to be overly contentious here, but what exactly is the concept of a Gadol Hador and how does it play out in the Halachic discussion?
How did I get involved? All I did was make a joke!
Popa, again, I can’t speak for R’ Weiss who I’ve never heard speak, but I’m unaware of any reason not to think that his desire to innovate is limited to a belief that standards of Tznius and Kavod HaTzibur should adapt to a world in which women are generally far more involved in public life, so long as those standards still conform to halacha. I can’t begin to figure out what you think his real agenda is after that, and I certainly don’t think the RCA (the people this conversation is about) is in any position to start divining the hidden agendas of their membership.
As for standards of ordination, that’s just not a hashkafic issue, and in the event it was, are you seriously suggesting we should start insisting on minimum standards for Rabbinic knowledge? I just can’t see that ending well for anyone.
How did I get involved? All I did was make a joke!
Oops. I meant Pashuteh Yid.
I’ll edit
true.
i personally think Rabbi Akiva Eiger, tz’l was mistaken in many of his Tshuvim, i have better answers, but i certainly respect his right to have his opinion as well.
it means that we humble folk understand that our appreciation and perception of the torah is very very very limited,a nd certain yechidei segula live on a different plain, and, as such, understand issues and see things clearer then the average joe. to argue on these big people is downright dumb. R elchonon said about those who argue on rishonim “When someone argues on an amora hes a kofer; on a rishon-hes a shoiteh!” i think we apply that top gedolei hador- dont argue with them- they know best. just like you know better then your 3 year old kid.
80- thats not funny.
Has R’ Weiss ever sat on a Beis Din with a woman? (Sorry for editing my previous comment such that yours now makes no sense.)
Arguing does not equal lack of respect really in any context, even if it were true.
It really does. It depends on what the healthy amount of respect should be.
If I argue with you about hashkafa, it does not indicate disrespect, since a healthy amount of respect for you would not mean your hashkafa is almost definitely more correct than mine.
If I argue with my doctor, that indicates disrespect for his medical knowledge, since I am equating my ability to diagnose with his, and I know next to nothing about medicine.
So, if he thinks he can argue with the mechaber, that indicates he thinks he has an appropriate knowledge compared to the mechaber to argue. Which is disrespect, considering the mechaber’s actual knowledge.
(The same is true of Rav Moshe. But let’s stick to the mechaber.)
youre right toi
im sorry
but there was an important toeles
are you seriously suggesting we should start insisting on minimum standards for Rabbinic knowledge? I just can’t see that ending well for anyone.
Of course we should. We already do insist on smicha for membership in RCA. We should just add that you also have to learn in yeshiva for a minimum of 10 or so years.
jothar your logic is flawed
perhaps he holds that women ARE kosher for aidus and are therefore kosher for dayanus.
it would come out then, that he is arguing on the Torah, not on Gedolim.
Nu nu. All you are saying is that a person needs to be makir mekomo. If he’s takeh holding by arguing, he can argue, and if not, not. I just resent the idea that “Gedolei Hador” is a “concept.” It makes halacha seem monolithic. If the man’s an am ha’aretz, he has no place arguing with great talmidei chachamim, and he is an idiot and deserves no respect for doing so. That’s all.
Jothar: It’s a Machlokes in Tosafos.
And the RCA makes its own determinations for who’s qualified to give that Semicha. If a time element was brought in, could the RCA demand that the Yeshivish/Chassidish world be somewhat more uniformly rigorous in their testing? (Choosing words very carefully due to the time of year/my desire to not be a troll)
And for the umpteenth time, I don’t believe for a minute, as someone who knows many living breathing MO Rabbis, (some even YCT grads) that anyone in that community actually would take a position on halacha that they believe the Mechaber would disagree with were he alive.
All you are saying is that a person needs to be makir mekomo. If he’s takeh holding by arguing, he can argue, and if not, not. I just resent the idea that “Gedolei Hador” is a “concept.”
Gedolei hador is not a concept. I agree with that.
We generally know who to not argue with, by general consensus of the other gedolim. The person who all the other gedolim are asking their shailos to.
No different than the secular academia, where they know who the biggest scholars are, without anyone appointing them.
yit- to a certain degree your dead right. do you argue with your rav?no.the knowledge gap between you and your rav is less then that between weiss and any gadol from 200 yrs ago. the mans a shoteh. a brilliant, misguided, very mistaken shoteh.
But the point is it’s a matter of pragmatism and common sense, nothing more. One doesn’t become a zaken mamrei for arguing with the rishonim. Just a fool. I choose to make this clear because otherwise we run the risk of turning halacha into something monolithic, in which I say that my rav is the ultimate decisor of Halacha and everyone who follows someone else is a kofer, and you say the same, and everyone ends up hating each other. But it isn’t true, someone could theoretically be a bar hachi and argue on the greats of his generation and even those before him. But one needs to be makir mekomo, and one who isn’t is a reckless fool and is ???? ???? ?? ????.
In the end, isn’t the reason RCA members aren’t members of the Agudah that they don’t think that analogy to secular academia holds? (To be clear, I don’t think it holds in secular academia either. The world’s most preeminent Shakespeare scholar might accept the non-absurdity of academics attempting a feminist reading of Romeo and Juliet, even if he doesn’t actually read it that way himself.)
And for the umpteenth time, I don’t believe for a minute, as someone who knows many living breathing MO Rabbis, (some even YCT grads) that anyone in that community actually would take a position on halacha that they believe the Mechaber would disagree with were he alive.
I don’t know why you are so sure about that.
I have already pointed to someone in that community, who is even listed as an advisor on their board, who wrote pure kefira. (Saul Berman)
I quote you a few choice lines.
“Most important of all in this area, we must encourage women to develop in a creative fashion whatever additional forms they find necessary for their religious growth… It might involve the creation of new religious artifacts.”
Nice. That is surely part of our religion- creating new religious artifacts.
“To suggest that women don’t really need positive symbolic mitzvot because their souls are already more attuned to the Divine, would be an unbearable insult to men; unless it were understood, as it indeed is, that the suggestion is not really to be taken seriously but is intended solely to placate women.”
Hmmm. I’m pretty sure rishonim say that. So I guess he is suggesting they were merely trying to placate women, and didn’t mean it seriously.
And the kicker-
“Indeed, these were the very same sages and scholars through whose interpretative skills capital punishment was virtually abolished; through whose legal creativity the task of the transformation and eventual elimination of slavery was accomplished”
Clearly he is saying that the Torah provided for capital punishment, but the rabbis thought it was immoral so abolished it. And the same for slavery.
This is not out of context, this is the real McCoy. This is not Judaism. We get out ethics from the Torah, we don’t impose our ethics on the Torah.
You can read the rest if you wish. It is called THE STATUS OF WOMEN IN HALAKHIC JUDAISM By Saul J. Berman. Published in Tradition in 1973. Google the title and I’m sure it will come up.
This Saul J. Berman calls himself Orthodox? Unbelievable.
He is editor of at least one of the Artscroll siddurim (the RCA version maybe?).
You really need to check out the wikipedia page of his defunct organization called “Edah”, which it says is from the passuk ?? ??? ???? ???? ????
Funniest thing I’ve seen in a while, including my erev yom kippur post.
That is hilarious!!!! ROTFL 🙂 🙂 How in the world did they miss that??!!
Let me put in my Two cents. Even though we had the major league, world class debaters like Poppa Bar Abba and other Gedolei ha Coffe room have their say. I will just simply give a little analysis of the situation (I hope I’m not over Loshon Hara or Sinas Chinom, or Kanaus) (Almost sounds like enumerating the “Al-Cheits” all over.) The vast, overwhelming majority of Yidden who call themselves (Or feel they belong to) MO are out to observe Torah and Mitzvos al Pi Halacha, like the rest of us. On the fringes, you have some groupings who feel that leading a true Torah life is too difficult or old fashioned. They are always looking for loopholes. Yet, they are offended when they are compared to the Conservative movement. The same goes for Rabbis. Let’s talk about the minority first. Rabbi Avi weiss (I met him personally. (A groise z’chiyeh.) He is a very affable fellow. Of course his life’s work is working to free Soviet Jews and innovations in the performance of our religion. But where observance of Halachah and Jewish tradition are concerned, there is a lot lacking. Especially, if he sees nothing wrong in breaking with traditions of Two Thousand Years. I once heard from a great sage that Halacha is, in a way like a rubber band. You can stretch it, and stretch it some more. But when it snaps, you get zapped.
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