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At the end of the day, I think that what comes out of this is that there are many people who misunderstand Modern Orthodoxy. There are the chareidim who don’t understand what it stands for, and there are the Conservadox who can’t admit they’re leaning towards being Conservative, and are trying to hold onto the Orthodox label, who claim “I’m modern!” as a reason to do things which aren’t allowed.
The “true” Modern Orthodox, as defined by its Rabbonim, is perfectly legitimate.
The MO Rabbonim have long accepted Avi Weiss as an official rabbi of the RCA.
No they haven’t, although they should have been more forceful about it.
DaMoshe, there are rabbis who call themselves Modern Orthodox who espouse positions against halacha, but you just write them off as not truly Modern Orthodox.
MO and YU shita are 2 very different things. Anyone (including those who follow YU shita) can say they are MO but not everyone can say they are following the YU shita
mod,
actually said it myself
how?
Ari, what’s the difference?
DY, the RCA permitted Weiss to be a member for many decades. They never ended his membership and consistently accepted his renewals (until last year when Weiss announced, at his choosing, that he no longer renewed his membership by declining to pay the annual membership dues.)
Throwing something new into the mix, what’s the official MO stance regarding Shem, Loshen and Malbush as being the reason Yidden were redeemed from Mitrzrayim even before they had the Torah? Among all the arguments about Halacha, this has been mostly glossed over here (some mentions of tznios, but only about women, not beards etc.).
Chasidim are obviously more “into these 3” but I believe one of the reasons for the high OTD rate among the MO (if true) is that they can blend in too easily into American culture so unfortunately many find it hard to “stand their ground” in Yiddishkeit. Being outwardly Jewish can be a matter of pride and even among weaker ones, be a reason to say for example, I can’t eat this, I’m Jewish and keep kosher, or at least be embarrassed enough to eat treif or openly desecrate Shabbos.
That demonstrates an unwillingness to have a confrontation, which I disagree with, but not acceptance of his approach.
Although I will admit it’s kinda egomaniac-ish, I quote what I wrote earlier in this thread:
Many here are making what I believe to be an important distinction between two very different groups within MO. There are MO who live up to MO ideals, and embody the concept of Torah u’Maddah, whether you hate it or love it. Then there the self-identifying MO who would probably be more accurately classified as Orthodox-lite: those would like to get away with as much as they can while (in their own minds) staying just within the confides of authentic Judaism. The differences between these groups is most obvious when one compares their fealty to Halacha; the first group will usually keep it scrupulously (although not most of the stringencies that those on the right keep), while the second will often times just ignore it.
So while there are indeed some who use the “modern” label to explain why they are not shomer negaih, dress modestly, etc, the self-identifying MO who actually live up to MO ideals would never dream of doing such a thing.
yekke2:
This is a far cry from simply “integrating” with the goyim. What I’d really like to know is whether the allowing TVs, Movies, unfiltered internet etc. is something they feel is right, or if it is a sad repercussion of their lifestyle?
Yesh vi’yesh. But I think it’s fair to say that there are these who do keep halacha, and yet do believe that there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of this stuff.
I really don’t like writing against Gedoilei Yisroel, so before I say something stupid can somebody please show me a Mareh Mokom of any of the Rabbis who support learning ????? ???????? without necessity?
I quote from the aforementioned essay of R’ Aharon Lichtenstein:
Seems kinda strange to me, and I don’t believe that there are too many Rabbonim who hold like this, but he certainly did say it.
#PehKaddoshEichYomarDavarZeh
(BTW, there is a summary of that essay written by the CR’s very own PBA: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/rav-lichtensteins-centrist-orthodoxy-by-gaw)
“However, there is another distinction as well (besides attitudes towards chumros, which I mentioned above): The question of balancing one’s obligation to support one’s family and one’s obligation to learn Torah. Chareidim will usually try to stay in learning for as long as possible, even if that means supported by their parents/parents-in-laws, wife, or government programs. MO tend to focus on earning a livelihood starting from shortly after high school.”
Again – is this the hashkafah or it’s unpleasant manifestation? In the Chareidi world, great value is put on Torah. Could it be that less people stay in learning and go to work before they need to because there is less appreciation of Torah in those circles? Perhaps because too much emphasis is placed on things that contradict Torah lifestyle?
Again, yesh vi’yesh. But here I think the split is clearer; the MO who believe in and live up to the MO ideals learn less only because they believe in working more. The MO who are just looking for an easier life learn less because they are just less interested.
A fraternity organisation is free to choose who to have as a member for any or no reason. A private religious organisation choosing not to accept a membership renewal hardly qualifies as a confrontation.
In this case it certainly would have been (which would have actually been a good thing).
We have a number of comments making a distinction between those self-identifying as MO who don’t fully keep Halacha (in various different ways) and attribute their halachic non-compliance as being an “MO shitta” and those who self-identify as MO and do fully observe Halacha. But I think it is fair to say that a lot of those who were MO and fully committed to Halacha have over the years and decades stopped identifying as MO and identified more with and often joined chareidi communities and sent their children to chareidi yeshivos.
At this point I do think that a majority of self-identifying MO are what is called “Left-Wing MO” and what is called “Right-Wing MO” is a minority.
And, really, what reason would someone fully observant of all Halachas have to identify as MO rather than with a chareidi community? You have many chareidim who go to college, work rather than learn (some starting to work before they’re married and others later), etc.
Mamale
Many MO’s do give their kids jewish names, Just not Yiddish names Like bearish or Fraida. They will give them more Hebrew names like Moshe or Chava
And the MO schools teach Hebrew so many MO’s can speak passable Hebrew ,Last I checked Hebrew was a Jewish Language
Joseph, it is not fair to say that the MO’s who keep Halacha become Haredi.That is just speculation.
What is fair to say the MO’s are very zionistic and many decide to stop being armchair zionists and become real zionists and make Aliyah and become Dati Leumi in Israel.
zsdad, why is one fair to say and the other unfair to say? You can find very many ex-MOs in chareidi shuls, integrated in chareidi communities and their children going to chareidi yeshivos and beis yaakovs. It is quite common thing find in most chareidi communities folks who went to YU (and grew up with a modern orthodox family) but today are fully integrated chareidim.
Just because they exist, doesnt mean there are lot of them. I doubt there are many MO’s who become Satmar or Sverer
I actually do know one, but a lot more become affiliated with the non chassidish yeshiva community.
There certainly are a lot of them. As DY pointed out, you won’t find them so much in chasidic communities. But you have will find very many in various litvish communities.
Mammele: R’ Schachter quotes a Tshuvah by R’ Moshe, I believe (he definitely quotes someone on this), who says that those Chiyuvim were only before Mattan Torah, when those were the only things that identified us. Nowadays, we have a Torah to keep our identity. A Torah which did not give an obligation to give “Jewish” names, have distinctive clothing (though there are rules about what can be worn), or speak a certain language.
nisht and Joseph: Your argument is unfair and it doesn’t hold up. Why do I care if people incorrectly use being “Modern Orthodox” as an excuse. If I commit murder and say I did it because I’m a penguin, does that make me a penguin? Does that make all penguins murderers? It’s unfortunate that some people have confused the term “MO” with meaning “not actually Orthodox”. But that doesn’t make it true. I’m not a penguin, no matter how much I (or anyone else) claims I am.
“Many MO’s do give their kids jewish names, Just not Yiddish names Like bearish or Fraida. They will give them more Hebrew names like Moshe or Chava”
In my experience it has been the MO who have had the most unusual combinations of Yiddish names, such as Zanvil Shepsil or Chuna Freydil or so on. I suspect it is so because they give the names they may remember from some old grandfather on one side and another on another side. They really don’t note the discordance of the combination since they have no intention of ever calling the child by anything other than a secular name.
Sam2:
nisht and Joseph: Your argument is unfair and it doesn’t hold up. Why do I care if people incorrectly use being “Modern Orthodox” as an excuse. If I commit murder and say I did it because I’m a penguin, does that make me a penguin? Does that make all penguins murderers? It’s unfortunate that some people have confused the term “MO” with meaning “not actually Orthodox”. But that doesn’t make it true. I’m not a penguin, no matter how much I (or anyone else) claims I am.
But if you hang out with penguins all day, and you walk like a penguin, and you talk like a penguin, you probably are a penguin.
What I’m trying to convey with this increasingly convoluted moshol is that if self-identifying MO who are not Halachicly observant are excepted into MO society (shuls/schools specifically), and they conform to MO culture (dress/speech/etc), they are indeed MO. MO who do not live up to the MO ideals set out by the MO Rabbonim, but MO nonetheless.
Now this is in no way to indicate that all MO don’t keep Halacha; as I’ve said countless times, there are many MO who do. Both camps exist, both are MO, and yet they can’t be confused with one another.
mw13: Not quite. The Halacha-observant MO just don’t exorcise people who aren’t Halachic. But they won’t eat at their houses or whatever. It’s not who you hang out with. It’s just that you won’t kick people out of shul/school for being not Frum. The attitude is “better that they’re in shul than not” rather than “I don’t want them near me”.
I don’t think that’s generally true. I think they will eat in their houses, count them for a minyan, etc.
DY: I think you’re wrong. I’ve actually had different conversations with my Rav about this. If someone is not Shomer Shabbos, they won’t be counted for a minyan, and people won’t eat by their house. If someone relies on hechsherim that I don’t use, I won’t eat by them.
DY: Count for a Minyan, maybe. Because we treat them as Tinokos Shnishbu. But eat by their house? Never. Not unless it’s store-bought goods with plastic Keilim. That I’ve seen.
And if they keep Shabbos but not tznius or negiah and go mixed swimming and when vacationing eat in any uncertified vegetable restaurant?
Also, do you always ask what hechsheirim any potential host uses?
Of course you won’t eat from or count for a minyan someone who isn’t shomer Shabbos.
I’m talking about people who are shomer Shabbos, but aren’t shomer other things.
The din probably is that if they’re not mechallel b’farhesia, they can be counted, and can be trusted. My point is that Sam was wrong that people who aren’t fully shomer mitzvos aren’t trusted.
This argument isn’t going to end until we have actual data. How many people who identify as modern orthodox do the things that Joseph alleges they do (eat treif, disregard tznius/negiah, learn little Torah in their free time, etc)? If a study conclusively showed that ruba d’ruba, rov, or miut hamatzui of modern orthodox people did these things, then I’d agree that the movement as a whole can be thoroughly criticized, and any individual can be muchzak to do those things. Until that happens though, the verdict is out. Just like not most or even many yeshivish people cheat on taxes, steal from the government, or cover up abuse, etc, so too, it is possible that not most or many modern orthodox people do the things Joseph says they do. But I don’t know the stats, and I doubt anyone else does either. So we cannot judge until there are numbers to back up the judgment. Anecdotes alone are not enough.
If a study conclusively showed that ruba d’ruba, rov, or miut hamatzui of modern orthodox people did these things, then I’d agree that the movement as a whole can be thoroughly criticized, and any individual can be muchzak to do those things.
Why? Why can’t individuals be judged on their own merits?
” just is how exactly are they different from regular orthodox?”
Those of us who are committed to halachah are no different from any other orthodox. It is true that you find people in all orthodox communities (not just “modern” ones) who aren’t committed, but don’t judge those communities by those people. Modern orthodox poskim don’t always pasken the same way as “other orthodox” and sometimes the psaks are more lenient, some more stringent.
“not most or even many yeshivish people cheat on taxes, steal from the government, or cover up abuse, etc, “
Just today I happened to run into a now off the derech woman whose parents never, ever worked. They survived on tzedakah and government benefits fraud. I certainly don’t consider them orthodox and I certainly don’t see that as typical of charedi communities.
“The MO Rabbonim have long accepted Avi Weiss as an official rabbi of the RCA.”
Rabbi Weiss is (1) retired, (2) no longer a member of the RCA, and (3) accepted as an orthodox Jew even by his most strident opponents such as Rabbi Steven Pruzansky, who wrote that the Israeli Rabbinate’s rejection of his eidut was unjustified.
“not shomer negaih, dress modestly, etc, the self-identifying MO who actually live up to MO ideals would never dream of doing such a thing.”
My wife would not be caught dead with her hair uncovered in public. She always wears either headscarves or hats. (She has never worn a human hair wig; there are poskim who forbid such.)
However, she is anything but shomer negiah as she is a doctor! She has to touch patients dozens of times every day. Pikuach nefesh trumps any and all tzniut concerns.
” MO’s are very zionistic and many decide to stop being armchair zionists and become real zionists and make Aliyah and become Dati Leumi in Israel.”
That is actually why MO numbers have not been growing. My community keeps sending people on aliyah. It is, according to many, a mitzvah. 😉
“do you always ask what hechsheirim any potential host uses?”
I never do that. It is asur to do so. If someone is shomer Shabat they are trusted in kashrut. That isn’t a halachah that the frum world has been very good at keeping lately.
” If someone is not Shomer Shabbos, they won’t be counted for a minyan”
The universal custom is to count Jewish men above bar mitzvah age for a minyan as long as there isn’t some other disqualification (such as having converted out or married a non-Jew). But being non-shomer Shabat is not one of the disqualifications. I have seen this done in many charedi shuls as well as MO shuls.
“Many MO’s do give their kids jewish names, “
I have never seen a MO family NOT give all their children Hebrew names. Yiddish is not a Holy language. (How many sefarim are written in Yiddish? Two?)
However, she is anything but shomer negiah as she is a doctor!
Chas v’chalilah! Would you call a Hatzolah member not shomer Shabbos?
The broader heter is tarud b’umnaso, otherwise it would be limited to life threatening situations.
That is actually why MO numbers have not been growing.
That’s part, not all, of the reason.
It is asur to do so. If someone is shomer Shabat they are trusted in kashrut.
Of course it isn’t. Firstly, the din of eid echad ne’eman b’issurim doesn’t make it assur to ask. More importantly, trustworthiness only goes as far as that person’s standards, but he is not automatically trusted to keep the standards of his guest, particularly if he is not familiar with them.
I didn’t specifically mention Yiddish names but was referring to Jewish names. The question is whether they use the name regularly, not if they were given one at birth or not.
I have never seen a MO family NOT give all their children Hebrew names.
I think the point being made is about what they’re called.
DY- individuals can be judged, a movement can’t.
Charliehall- I’m glad you don’t see fraud as typical in charedi communities. I’m also glad that your wife is makpid(ah?) about covering her hair. If only all MO women did as such. I know they don’t because michael broyde had to write a giant article to be ‘melamed zechus’ on all the MO women who don’t cover their hair. I also would question your implication that MO send more people to eretz yisrael than charedim–I know plenty of yeshivish people who have “made aliyah.” And regarding names, it seems that names like “josh,” “sam,” or even “charlie,” are pretty popular in MO communities, contra your assertion.
“However, she is anything but shomer negiah as she is a doctor! She has to touch patients dozens of times every day. Pikuach nefesh trumps any and all tzniut concerns.”
1) Who says that ????? ??? trumps ANY AND ALL tzniut concerns? There are some that are ???? ??? ?????.
2) Every time someone goes to a doctor is a case of ????? ???? I highly doubt that the instances of ????? ??? are more than a ???? ????? unless you are working in emergency department or critical care.
3) I wonder if your wife appreciates that you said that she is not ????? ??????. Are you calling her an avaryon? And you are proud that she is not shomer?
zogt – i was so impressed by your post above but now you are joining the fray as well. any hard data on the names? The communities vary so greatly it would be silly to make claims about what “the MO” are doing.
And technically, while i dont advocate for using names like sam, i don’t advocate for yiddish names either. according to R Krohn (and others) in his book about naming a child, yiddish is secular. those who named their kids Izik veered from Torah names and many did it to assimilate more guiltlessly. the only reason you think those names arent secular is because you don’t live in europe.
“I have never seen a MO family NOT give all their children Hebrew names.”
So says Charlie.
“I never do that. It is asur to do so. “
At least when chareidim have a chumra, it is based in Halacha.
Sam2:
I wasn’t saying that observant MO will eat in non-observant MO houses, or even count them for a minyan. I was saying that they will accept them as part of the community, despite the things they do that are contrary to halacha. Chareidim, for the most part, will not. I was not coming to judge what is the proper mehalech; that is a separate discussion. I was explaining why it is that non-observant MO are still MO while non-observant Chareidim are not Chareidim. One group is tolerated by the rest of their community, and one is not; so the former can still be considered a part of the community, and the latter can not be.
syag- you’re right, I got sloppy about the whole data thing with my last comment. That said, I do think it’s fair to extrapolate that if a serious, high-profile article needed to be written by a pretty big MO posek/dayan to be melamed z’chus on lack of hair covering, it’s clear that lack of hair-covering is a real issue in the MO community, or at least it is according to r’ broyde and tradition magazine (an mo journal). and about the names, I agree with you that a lashon kodesh name is preferable to yiddish. but the phenomenon of MO people giving english names troubles me far more than the chassidishe and hard core yeshivish phenomenon of giving yiddish names. one is a sign of assimilation right now and the other is not.
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